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Featured article candidates (FAC) Today's featured article (TFA):
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Nominating[edit]
Commenting, etc[edit]
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Nominations
[edit]- Nominator(s): Kurzon (talk) 18:52, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
We have fixed the citation issues. Kurzon (talk) 18:52, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): Darkwarriorblake (talk) 19:42, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
This article is about 1997 science fiction film Starship Troopers, one of director Paul Verhoeven's last works in the western studio system and the unofficial third and final installment in his anti-authority trilogy including RoboCop and Total Recall. The film was widely derided on its release as a pro-fascist film despite its intention to satirize fascism, which was blamed both on poor marketing and contemporary cultural leanings. It's reputation has grown over time once the satire became evident and is now considered a cult classic. Last nomination had no participation, pinging Bneu2013 who expressed an interest in reviewing prior to its closure. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 19:42, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
ThaesOfereode
[edit]I can't believe no one reviewed it last time given the love this movie has accrued over the years, especially compared to its negative release. I've never seen this movie, nor read the book, so feel free to push back on anything I misunderstand or critique improperly. Beginning with prose:
- Lede
- science fiction action film – WP:SEAOFBLUE. Recommend de-linking action film.
- Johnny Rico and his friends – More comrades than friends, no?
- an alien species of Arachnids – Consider an alien species called Arachnids, since they aren't arachnids. Optional, link alien species?
- Despite these efforts development was slow, with studios hesitant [...] – Comma after efforts.
- Plot
- highly evolved – Hyphen
- mobile infantryman – Is this somehow different than a regular infantryman?
- Carl Jenkins joins Military Intelligence – Why "military intelligence" capitalized here but not anywhere else in the whole article?
- while Isabelle "Dizzy" Flores, who is in love with Rico, deliberately transfers to his squad – Consider endashes here to break up the commas.
- Carmen
eventuallyends her relationship with Rico - for fellow pilot Zander Barcalow → for a fellow pilot, Zander Barcalow
- Rico impresses drill sergeant Zim → Rico impresses the drill sergeant, Zim or Rico impresses his drill sergeant, Zim – If this is a rank, capitalize. But don't mix caps as drill Sergeant.
- However, a mistake during – A mistake or Rico's mistake?
- Rico quits but – Comma after quits.
- leading to thousands of casualties – Human casualties? Both sides?
- lieutenant Jean Rasczak – Capitalize lieutenant.
- "Roughnecks" – I don't think this needs quotations, unless they have another official name in the movie (e.g., 151st Armed Batallion, etc.).
- Rico's valor in battle earns him the rank of Corporal, particularly after he defeats a gigantic "Tanker Bug" on Tango Urilla, and he develops a romantic relationship with Dizzy. → After Rico defeats a gigantic "Tanker Bug" on Tango Urilla, he is elevated to the rank of corporal for his valor and begins a romantic relationship with Dizzy. – In its current form, it is structurally ambiguous (i.e., that he earned his rank both from his valor on the battlefield and from his relationship with Dizzy). Perhaps a goofy rationale, but I think this sentence flows better anyway.
- rank of Corporal – Decapitalize Corporal.
- distress signal on Planet P – What is Planet P? Human-owned? Unclaimed?
- but not before Dizzy is mortally wounded and Rico mercy kills the mutilated Rasczak. – How is Dizzy wounded? Surely, if Rico kills Rasczak (as a mercy), he is mortally wounded too, no? Consider Dizzy and Rasczak are mortally wounded and, after Dizzy succumbs to her wounds, Rico mercy kills a mutilated Rasczak. instead.
- The group returns to the fleet assembled in orbit above P, where Dizzy is eulogized. – But Rasczak isn't? Odd.
- an intelligent Arachnid strategically directing the others – If this is a hive-mind, consider saying so and linking as appropriate.
- Arachnids, and the escape – Change and the to but an.
- the Brain Bug, and the – Remove comma.
- Cast
- I'd do away with the colon structure here and replace it with a comma. If you keep the colon or not, all those a's and an's should be lowercase.
- Not much else to critique here, but you're missing Timothy Omundson's role as a psychic in the movie. It may be worth mentioning since he later played Carlton Lassiter in the show Psych, who is a curmudgeonly detective who doubts the psychic ability of the show's lead, and the show poked fun at Omundson's role reversal a few times IIRC.
- Production
- Link jingoistic. Consider linking xenophobia and war film.
- TriStar executives determined that to move forward – Soft recommendation to put a comma after that.
- comic-book–style – I think it's just comic book–style
- filming locations but rejected – Comma before but.
- Link Hell's Half Acre (Wyoming) as first mention. Link buttes.
- an hours drive → an hour's drive or an hour drive
- the Nazi propaganda films Triumph of the Will – WP:SEAOFBLUE. Consider removing "films" from the pipe to fix.
- for the adience → for the audience
- like a Vietnam war veteran → like a Vietnam War veteran – Odd piping choice bordering on an Easter egg.
- Clancy Brown portrays Sgt. Zim – Spell out Sergeant like you've done with the rest of the ranks.
- twelve days of military training from
DaleDye – Last name only here. - not in the Infantry cast – Decapitalize. Comm after cast.
- Link heatstroke.
- On the crew's flight to Los Angeles on June 29 – Comma after the date.
- stunts for the scene apart – Either comma after apart or delete the comma in somersaults,.
- A separate nude scene was written for Richards but she refused to take part – Comma after Richards.
- The fight between Rico and Zander was mainly performed by their actors – What does this mean? Their stunt doubles? If so, clarify and link as appropriate.
- Soft push, but back of a gigantic, moving, fiberglass doesn't really need any commas, does it?
- his ribs over the 3 1⁄2 days of filming → his ribs over the three and a half days of filming
- Only one take was done, and they were told that if someone tripped to pick them up and keep moving. – Grammatically fine (if you remove the comma after done), but I had to double-take to get the meaning. Consider Only one take was done and they were told that if someone tripped, they should pick them up and keep moving.
- only slightly over schedule – Any idea by how much?
- Davison wanted to use other studios but it was – Comma after studios.
- Poledouris' → Poledouris's, per MOS:'S
- Release
- Everything looks good here.
- Reception
- Turan and Berardinelli – Who? You link Kenneth Turan later in the paragraph. Flip the link/full name usage. Same with Berardinelli.
- Berardinelli said that at its best – Comma after that.
- Starship Troopers' → Starship Troopers's, per MOS:'S and use {{'s}} after the italics.
- others, such as Jonathan Rosenbaum and Ebert, wrote – Strongly encourage endashes here.
- Post-release
- Starship Troopers' – Ut supra, passim.
- connect with
eitherboth criticsorand audiences - science-fiction adventure – Dehyphenate.
- Link neo-Nazism.
- Themes and analysis
- Period needed at the end of the photos' caption.
- director's own war experiences – I don't believe Verhoeven was a combatant, so director's own wartime experiences is better, I think.
- Mobile Infantry – Hasn't been capitalized, probably shouldn't be capitalized here either. Two instances.
- Perhaps link Aryan ideal of beauty to Aryanism or something similar.
- seduce the audience into joining [Starship Troopers'] society ... but then ask, 'What are you really joining up for?'" – Starship Troopers's, per MOS:'S and use {{'s}}; use {{'"}} for the quotation.
- Link progressive politics and gender norms.
- asking "would you like to know more?" → asking: "Would you like to know more?"
- many rights are reserved only for citizens, those who have served in the military → many rights are reserved only for citizens comprising only those who have served in the military
- Voting is presented as an act of force, of supreme authority, a right that must be taken instead of given → Voting is presented as an act of force and supreme authority, a right that must be taken instead of given
- As Rasczak tells his students, "violence → As Rasczak tells his students: "Violence
- Strzelczyk – Who? You only cite her full name in the next paragraph, so that should be switched up. Also, when she is introduced, the academic.
- Author Leighton Grist → The author Leighton Grist
- Soft suggestion to link "full-scale war" with total war.
- inhuman, and strategic – No comma.
- Writer Lloyd Farley → The writer Lloyd Farley
- Arachnids are not significantly different to, and are justified in exterminating humanity – No comma.
- Legacy
- science-fiction action – Dehyphenate.
- its critiques of right-wing militarism, the military–industrial complex, reactionary violence and American jingoism, made it seem ahead of its time – Move the comma from after jingoism to after violence.
- Link police brutality. Soft suggestion to link dehumanization.
- someone going 'Rico!'" – Use {{'"}}
- as a strong female → as a strong female character
- Sequels and remake
- Nothing to critique here.
And that's about all I got. Overall, this is a monster page full of excellent information that I thoroughly enjoyed reading. The biggest issues are comma usage and pretty obvious examples of moving parts of the page around, but both are simple fixes. Hopefully someone with more love for this movie (or the book) will be able to step in for any gaps, if there are any. I learned a lot about the movie and virtually everything on the page was either interesting to me or will be interesting to someone else. I look forward to seeing this on the main page sometime in the near future. A few fixes (mostly commas!) and I'll be happy to throw my support behind the article based on prose. You've done excellent work on this page, I'm sorry this didn't get the review it should have on its first volley here, and I hope you will bring this kind of quality work to FAC again. Cheers, ThaesOfereode (talk) 02:20, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hi ThaesOfereode, thanks for your kind words, yes I think no reviews at all is probably worse than bad reviews as it just wastes time and takes time before you can try again, so I appreciate your early involvement.
- I have done most of the notes above minus the following which I've provided some explanations for, so let me know if my answers suffice or you need more clarity.
- mobile infantryman – Is this somehow different than a regular infantryman? Not as far as I'm aware, it's just the in-universe term for them
- but not before Dizzy is mortally wounded and Rico mercy kills the mutilated Rasczak. – How is Dizzy wounded? Surely, if Rico kills Rasczak (as a mercy), he is mortally wounded too, no? Consider Dizzy and Rasczak are mortally wounded and, after Dizzy succumbs to her wounds, Rico mercy kills a mutilated Rasczak. instead. - So I have changed this around a bit to "but not before Dizzy is fatally impaled by an Arachnid and Rico mercy kills the mutilated Rasczak." That might just sound the same tbh. In the context of the film I don't believe the implication is that Racszak is mortally wounded, he's heavily disfigured and basically incapacitated with no legs in the middle of a battle so Rico follows his earlier advice and puts him out of his misery before the bugs can get to him since there's no option to extract him at that point and he's almost literally dead weight. Dizzy on the other hand is impaled through the torso and dies on the shuttle while professing her love for Rico.
- The group returns to the fleet assembled in orbit above P, where Dizzy is eulogized. – But Rasczak isn't? Odd. - Rico gives the eulogy so I think it's just more personal, plus they have her body so they can hold a funeral while Racszak is still on Planet P. To this day!
- an intelligent Arachnid strategically directing the others – If this is a hive-mind, consider saying so and linking as appropriate. - Unless this is established in later films I don't believe it's a hive mind, there's no discussion for how the bugs communicate, they screech for example, but the Brain Bug is just like a human commander but smarter as far as I'm aware from the in-film context.
- only slightly over schedule – Any idea by how much? - Sadly, no
- Thanks again ThaesOfereode. Oh, remembered, I linked "xenophobic" but not "war film" since it would fall into the seaofblue trap. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 20:24, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 14:52, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
This article is about unionization efforts at Tesla in different countries and Tesla's relation to trade unions more broadly. A lot of attention is brought to Elon Musk's commentary, but this Wikipedia article authoritatively brings attention to older campaigns and countries in order to WP:GLOBALIZE coverage. It is a GA and has continued to be expanded since. This is my first WP:FAC so I am appreciative of any assistance/guidance along the way. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 14:52, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Image review
[edit]Hello Shushugah and welcome to FAC. I'll do the image review. The article contains the following images:
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IG_Metall_brochures_for_Tesla_employees.jpg
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tesla_IG_Metall_building.jpg
They are own works published under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International. They are relevant and placed at appropriate locations. Both images are from Germany. Since Tesla is an American company, it would be good to have America also represented image-wise. The images lack alt-texts, see MOS:ALT. The captions are fine. Phlsph7 (talk) 07:48, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- 📸 Done! I agree more photos would be nice. I have contacted United Auto Workers and IndustriALL Global Union to WP:DONATE some photos because there are nice ones that show diversity and breadth of Tesla workers movement. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 15:53, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 12:41, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
The Bond novel You Only Live Twice was written when Fleming was at a low point in his life - court cases, health issues and ongoing unhappiness in his marriage - and he was running out of energy and enthusiasm for writing more stories. The novel itself is largely taken up with travelogue descriptions of Japan and its culture, and the main element within it – Bond v Blofeld – only takes up around 30 pages at the end. This has been through a re-write recently and all constructive comments from good faith editors are welcome. - SchroCat (talk) 12:41, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Support from Alavense
[edit]- It was the last novel published Fleming in his lifetime
- Eon Productions James Bond film series - Can a way be found to avoid the sea of blue?
- It's only two together, and avoiding it would mean either a lot of pointless words or semantic twisting; both would leave it reading awkwardly. - SchroCat (talk) 13:37, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- In note b): On Her Majesty's Secret Service continues the story from On Her Majesty's Secret Service
- Bond exacts revenge on Blofeld in a duel, Blofeld armed with a sword and Bond with a wooden staff - Can "the former" and "the latter" be used to avoid repeating the names?
- Why does Books and Bookmen link to Hansom Books if there's an article for it?
- When I first wrote this article, there wasn't a page for B&B - thanks for spotting the page. - SchroCat (talk) 13:37, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Fleming wrote to his friend, Richard Hughes, the Far Eastern correspondent of The Sunday Times - I feel the first comma is not needed.
- Fleming's biographer Matthew Parker, considers the novel - No need for that comma either.
- Charmian was the forename of Fleming's cousin who married his brother Richard - If there are more cousins, maybe "the Fleming's cousin who married his brother Richard"; if that was the only one, then "Fleming's cousin, who married his brother Richard", with the comma.
- I think this is probably okay as it is. - SchroCat (talk) 13:37, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Blofeld's name is taken from comes from Tom Blofeld
- So much of the book is taken up with the description that the literary analyst LeRoy L. Panek describes the work as a "semi-exotic travelogue" - Given that we have "description" already there, can a verb different to "describes" be used? Deems, maybe?
- Fleming's two companions on his trip, Richard Hughes and Tiger Saito became - A comma is missing.
- All done down to here, except where I've commented otherwise. - SchroCat (talk) 13:37, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
More to follow. Kind regards, Alavense (talk) 13:18, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
A few more things:
- The theme of Britain's declining position in the world is also dealt with in conversations between Bond and Tanaka, Tanaka voices Fleming's own concerns about the state of Britain in the 1950s and early 60s - I feel there's something missing after the comma. Maybe an "in which"?
- Duval Smith believed that "the background is excellent ... Mr. Fleming has caught the exact 'feel' of Japan", - It should end with a full stop rather than with a comma.
- Maggie Ross, in The Listener, was also a little dissatisfied - That reads a bit weirdly, given that the previous critic was not dissatisfied.
- I think it's a bit odd how Maurice Richardson's opinion is cut in half by another paragraph.
- There are a few people who have their reviews in more than one place - I've tried to deal with the reviews more or less by themes, rather than grouping by individual reviewer. - SchroCat (talk) 14:12, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
That's what I saw. Kind regards, Alavense (talk) 13:50, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Many thanks Alavense. All done. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 14:12, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Thanks for the quick responses. It was a nice read and I think the article meets the criteria. Kind regards, Alavense (talk) 15:33, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Image review
- File:You_Only_Live_Twice-Ian_Fleming.jpg: source link is dead
- File:Samurai.png needs a US tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:31, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks Nikkimaria; all sorted. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 14:16, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Support from Tim riley
[edit]I commented at some length at the peer review, with, on the whole, minor quibbles. All my comments were thoroughly attended to, and after another read-through now I have no further comments, and am happy to support the elevation of this article to FA. It seems to me to meet all the criteria. Tim riley talk 14:23, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments from PMC
[edit]Incoming! ♠PMC♠ (talk) 18:10, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) and Tim riley talk 12:40, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Much-Binding-in-the-Marsh was a BBC radio comedy starring Kenneth Horne and Richard Murdoch; it was one of the shows that built up Horne's reputation prior to his great successes with Beyond Our Ken and Round the Horne. This has been through a re-write in 2022 and a recent brush-up and all constructive comments from good faith editors are welcome. - SchroCat (talk) and Tim riley talk - 12:40, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Image review
- Suggest adding alt text
- Don't use fixed px size
- File:Much-Binding-Sketch-1948-small.jpg: the unique historic images tag is generally only used where the image itself, rather than what is being depicted, is the subject of commentary.
- File:Much_binding_4-4_dotted.png: the tagging here doesn't make sense - it cannot be the uploader's own work. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:35, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- It seems entirely pukka to me: DBaK has transcribed a tune into the Western musical stave. I had a go earlier, but DBak as a professional musician has polished my attempt into proper musical notation. Tim riley talk 14:31, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- The rest of the points all addressed. - SchroCat (talk) 14:53, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- A transcription would at the least be a derivative work - it's copying a creative work that already existed, rather than creating something entirely novel. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:57, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Suggestions for tag invited. Tim riley talk 16:41, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- What do we know about the circumstances of composition? Would it have been considered a work for hire? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:49, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- It wouldn’t have been considered as such by the writers or the BBC, as WFH is an American concept, not a British one. - SchroCat (talk) 05:10, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- What do we know about the circumstances of composition? Would it have been considered a work for hire? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:49, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Suggestions for tag invited. Tim riley talk 16:41, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- A transcription would at the least be a derivative work - it's copying a creative work that already existed, rather than creating something entirely novel. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:57, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Support from Wehwalt
[edit]Support I had heard of the show because it's mentioned in one of Nevil Shute's books. Happy to review.
- Is there a reason not to spell out ITMA in the lede?
- "Princess Elizabeth (later Queen Elizabeth II) who was on her first public appearance since the birth of her first son—Prince Charles" I understand the need to say that she later received a promotion, but if one, why not the other?
- Images: I'm dubious that a candy bar is really relevant to this, especially since I suspect the bar is of considerably later vintage.
- It's really only tangentially relevant, but it's the only image in the body of the article, apart from the music. I wouldn't be too sorry if we had to remove it, but it's nicer to break up the text a little if possible. - SchroCat (talk) 14:52, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- "The 1947 billing reads "Richard Murdoch in 'Much-Binding-in-the-Marsh', with Kenneth Horne, Sam Costa and Marilyn Williams"; by 1954 the billing was "Richard Murdoch, Kenneth Horne and Sam Costa in 'Much-Binding'".[25]" I guess the question is why no italicisation?
- That's it. Most interesting.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:34, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks Wehwalt; all done, bar the image - although I'm open to being pushed on that one too. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 14:52, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't feel that strongly on the image having been in similar situations. Just thought I'd point it out. Wehwalt (talk) 15:13, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks Wehwalt; all done, bar the image - although I'm open to being pushed on that one too. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 14:52, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Support from Alavense
[edit]- oh, my word ! - Is that space present in the original?
- "Flight Officer Flannel"—played by Binnie Hale, Dorothy Carless or Doris Hare—according to availability, would sing, as would Costa - I'm a bit lost here. Isn't a comma missing before "according"?
- the characters had been demobilised and, and shook hands
- was on its way to overtaking ITMA as the most popular British radio comedy - How's popularity measured in this regard? Number of listeners or anything like that?
- Number of listeners - it's the only way (I think) that popularity of a radio show could be assessed. - SchroCat (talk) 09:17, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- greeted by Murdoch with, "Good morning - Is that comma needed?
- You have The cast comprised Murdoch, Horne, Costa, Denham and Bryan but also Denham's other roles included Luigi the Italian, Winston the dog, Gregory the sparrow, Group Captain Funnybone, Lieutenant-General Sir Harold Tansley-Parkinson, and the receptionist at Much-Binding. I think there ought to be consistency as to the use of the Oxford comma. There are other instances of this.
- There's nothing about why the show returned to the BBC.
- It's not discussed in sources. They had a one-year contract with Radio Lux, which they fulfilled, but there's nothing more about it. - SchroCat (talk) 09:17, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Costa played Prudence Gush, the radio critic and Denham added more roles to his repertoire - A comma is missing after "critic".
- He managed to travel to Australia - I think "Horne" better than "He", because otherwise it gets a bit confusing.
- − "Oh, jolly D!" − - I would go for the same dashes for consistency.
- His mother - Uppercase after a semicolon.
- Fifi de la Bon-Bon, known as Mademoiselle Fifi was - A comma is missing.
- played by the singer Dorothy Carless. was one
That's what I saw. Kind regards, Alavense (talk) 06:05, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Cheers, Alavense: all sorted, except where commented above, where the sources just don't cover the ground enough. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:17, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the edits and the responses. I'm happy with that and I think the article (a nice read) meets the criteria, so I'll support. Kind regards, Alavense (talk) 09:24, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): Tim riley talk 20:32, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
The Importance of Being Earnest is allegedly the second most quoted play in the English language, after Hamlet, and has a lot more laughs. Many editors have contributed to the article since it was promoted to GA back in 2010, and I have attempted to incorporate all cited and relevant additions into the present text as well as expanding it quite a lot and making the text as cogent as I can, with suitable sections and headings. As ever, suggestions for improvement will be received gratefully. – Tim riley talk 20:32, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
Image review
[edit]- Alexander is missing alt text
- Added. Can't think how I missed that one. Tim riley talk 09:43, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Don't use fixed px size
- Now just thumb. Tim riley talk 09:43, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Another editor, who no doubt knows more about these things than I do, has changed it again. Perhaps you'd check it's OK now. Tim riley talk 12:08, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Now just thumb. Tim riley talk 09:43, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- File:Millard-importance-earnest.jpg: source link is dead
- Replaced with a difference image and added a fourth to the gallery, which perhaps you'd be kind enough to check. Tim riley talk 09:43, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- File:Wilde-1896-Toulouse-Lautrec.jpgn needs a US tag.
I can't find a specifically US tag for "Artist died more than 100 years ago". Could you advise, please? Tim riley talk 09:43, 25 August 2024 (UTC)I think I see what's happened here: some helpful soul has taken "Do not copy this file to Wikimedia Commons" to mean "Do copy this file to Wikimedia Commons". I've replaced it with a local copy, duly (I trust) tagged. Tim riley talk 10:16, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Nikkimaria (talk) 00:03, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you as ever for the review, Nikkimaria. All attended to – I hope satisfactorily. Tim riley talk 11:17, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- All fine. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:24, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- For the Heaven-knows-how-many times, thank you, Nikkimaria Tim riley talk 13:50, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- All fine. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:24, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Ssilvers comments
[edit]Synopsis
- "The play opens with". This is "meta" information about the play. My understanding is that, on WP, plot synopses should simply "tell the story", without any reference to stagecraft, audience, etc. unless the script calls for the stage device to be pointed out to the audience ("Pseudolus says that the ensuing story will be a comedy"). So, I believe it should start "Algernon Moncrieff, a young man about town, receives his friend...."
- Interesting. Can you point me to the relevant section of the Manual of Style? (I've made the suggested change notwithstanding.) Tim riley talk 07:36, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- ..."'Synopsis'. This heading implicitly informs the reader that the text within it describes the fiction. For conciseness, it is thus not necessary to explicitly incorporate out-of-universe language, particularly if the work is presented in a linear, direct presentation" (as you do in The Importance of Being Earnest). See MOS:PLOT, under "Plot summaries of individual works". -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:37, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'd quite like to see a translation of the italicised and quoted words into English, but as I've made the suggested change the matter can rest. Tim riley talk 11:38, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- "As Jack gives her his address in the country" -- I think "her" means Gwendolyn, not Bracknell? We ought to specify.
- "her" can only mean Gwendolen, who is the only female character mentioned in the previous sentence. Lady Bracknell is last mentioned two sentences and 55 words earlier. Tim riley talk 07:36, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Governess is wikilinked. Is this necessary, particularly in a plot summary?
- It would be instructive to remove the blue link and see how long it is before someone demands a blue link. I'll try the experiment. Tim riley talk 07:36, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Still unchallenged so far. I'm getting quite interested. Tim riley talk 11:38, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Composition
- "...earlier drawing room plays, Lady Windermere's Fan, A Woman of No Importance and An Ideal Husband". Perhaps add years, or say "earlier in the 1890s"?
- Dates mentioned earlier. Could move the dates down here to second mention if preferred. Tim riley talk 06:54, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, thanks, I think it is necessary to have them in the Composition section, as the WP:LEAD section should not contain facts that are not presented in the text below. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:05, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Added to main text, but left in the lead too, which I think may be useful to the reader. Tim riley talk 10:30, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Good. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:08, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Re: Douglas's claims in the first paragraph of this section, do scholars believe him?
- Broadly, nobody believes anything Douglas said or wrote, but the fact that he said this to Gielgud and Agate seems to me worthy of note whether one believes it or not. Tim riley talk 06:54, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Can you please add that Douglas's claims in the first paragraph are not believed, or doubted? Otherwise a reader might think that everyone (other than maybe Gielgud) accepted Douglas's claims. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:05, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Footnote expanded. Tim riley talk 08:48, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Very helpful. Thanks! -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:08, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I wonder if I should turn some of the footnote into main text. What think you, Ss? Tim riley talk 21:47, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I would move into main text the statements that Ellman concluded that Douglas was untrustworthy and that Gielgud was unpersuaded. The imprisonment for criminal libel should stay in the footnote, I think.
- ..."stage movements, using a model theatre"... Do any of the sources mention that this was also Gilbert's technique in designing stage movement for his productions?
- No. I wondered if Stedman, whom we have as a source, does, but she doesn't. Tim riley talk 06:54, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- I see that the play was originally subtitled "A Serious Comedy for Trivial People". Seems worth mentioning. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:38, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- In an early draft. As stated in the article Wilde made numerous changes when drawing and redrawing the text. Not sure this one is especially notable, but will ponder. Tim riley talk 20:10, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Having mulled I think it is worth mention and I'll add it. Tim riley talk 21:10, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think the sentence looks better and more balanced now – good suggestion! Tim riley talk 21:23, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
First productions
- "triggering a series of trials ending in Wilde's imprisonment... The Victorian public turned against Wilde" -- I think this goes by too fast. I think the following facts (at least a very brief mention of them) are relevant to an understanding of why Wilde's action backfired so disastrously, and the play's run was cut so short: 1. Wilde brought the prosecution against his friends' advice; 2. Queensbury was arrested, making it worth his while to hire private investigators. 3. Wilde's colourful private life became a daily news topic (not simply celebrity gossip), including accusations about his behavior involving underage boys, until it made his plays unpalatable to "respectable" theatregoers. 4. Wilde's flippancy on the stand served to reinforce this bad image of his character. 5. The case bankrupted Wilde.
- That level of detail belongs, and is to be found, in the (very full and commendable) article on Wilde. What matters here are Queensberry's opening night attempt and Wilde's arrest and imprisonment. The reader here does not need to have "an understanding of why Wilde's action backfired so disastrously", but simply that it did. Tim riley talk 08:48, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- OK, but maybe just add a clause like this? "The Victorian public, who read daily, sensationalised reports of the evidence presented at the trials, including accusations about Wilde's behavior involving teenage boys, turned against him soon after his arrest..."
- Your source for this?
- In Wilde's article, it is cited to Ellmann, 1988, p. 415. See also, for example, this, this cites 3 sources, and this: "The newspapers were less squeamish, but their reports were necessarily shortened versions of the proceedings and filled with circumlocutions like "unnatural practices" and "indecent acts". -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:55, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- So it's in Wilde's article. Good. Enough, I'd say. Tim riley talk 18:27, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Critical opinion -- no suggestions
Revivals
- "You are tickled throughout with a feather, and is a very pleasant and comforting sensation." Is "it" missing, after "and"?
- An OCR scanning error. The printed copy has the missing word. Now added. Tim riley talk 08:48, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- There was a Charles Frohman-produced Broadway run in 1902 with Margaret Anglin as Gwendolyn, William Courtenay as Algie, Charles Richman as Jack, and Frank Brownlee and Margaret Dale as ? See the IBDB listing. There were also 1921, 1926, 1939, and 1977 B'way productions.
- Are any of these notable? I have tried to cherry pick the notable productions rather than compile an exhaustive list of every one. I have, for example, omitted a fairly recent West End production that drew poor notices and did not run for long.
- Now that I look at the reviews for the 1902 revival by Frohman's stock company in the US press, I see that (unlike in England) Wilde's name is prominently mentioned, and that fact is worth a mention, I think. Tim riley talk 08:48, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that it is not worth describing each of these revivals, but we could say that there have been at least 9 productions on Broadway.
- But then we'd have to say there have been x revivals in the West End. I think it is best to leave the matter open. Tim riley talk 18:25, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- "An Old Vic production in February 1934"... Why include the month, when we have been rounding to years previously?
- Fair point. Pruned. Tim riley talk 09:08, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Publication
- It was sold for £650. -- Do we need to give the currency translation to today's pounds and dollars?
- Good point. But I'm uneasy about keeping this addition. Is it really relevant to the play? I have written two thirds of the present text but there are bits of the other third, such as this, that I've inherited and am not sure about. Thoughts?
- Hmmm. I don't think it adds much. If it was, y'know, 1 million pounds, I'd say, "well, now THAT's interesting". -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:50, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for that. I think I'll blitz it. Tim riley talk 22:00, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
More to come.
MSinccc
[edit]- Placeholder for the time being. Tim riley, the lead is fine as it is. I will return with comments for the rest of the article later. Regards MSincccc (talk) 10:04, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Film under the Adaptations section
- Only one brief point here, for now. Can we move/merge the sentence used in the fourth paragraph somewhere else under the same section so that "one-sentence long" paragraphs do not exist?
- Regards. MSincccc (talk) 03:39, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Tim riley Should I proceed with merging the last sentence? A single sentence long paragraph does not look ideal. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 08:56, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- No, thank you. I'll deal with your comment later. Tim riley talk 09:02, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Tim riley Should I proceed with merging the last sentence? A single sentence long paragraph does not look ideal. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 08:56, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Film under the Adaptations section
- You might like to read the Oxford Style Manual which quotes Fowler: No absolute rules regulate a paragraph’s length, since its size is a function of the arrangement and flow of the text it contains. As Fowler says, 'The paragraph is essentially a unit of thought, not of length: it must be homogeneous in subject-matter and sequential in treatment'. Squashing an Indian derivative in with three Anglophone films is neither homogeneous nor sequential. You might also read The Economist's excellent style guide, which similarly quotes Fowler and adds One-sentence paragraphs should be used only occasionally. This is one such occasion. Tim riley talk 09:46, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for your explanation. It's a fine article as it stands. I have nothing more for the time being. Support MSincccc (talk) 18:02, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- You might like to read the Oxford Style Manual which quotes Fowler: No absolute rules regulate a paragraph’s length, since its size is a function of the arrangement and flow of the text it contains. As Fowler says, 'The paragraph is essentially a unit of thought, not of length: it must be homogeneous in subject-matter and sequential in treatment'. Squashing an Indian derivative in with three Anglophone films is neither homogeneous nor sequential. You might also read The Economist's excellent style guide, which similarly quotes Fowler and adds One-sentence paragraphs should be used only occasionally. This is one such occasion. Tim riley talk 09:46, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
SC
[edit]Comments to follow. - SchroCat (talk) 08:35, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- "flat in Half Moon Street, Mayfair[n 1]": according to MOS:NOSECTIONLINKS, there shouldn't be footnotes in headings
- Rejigged to take settings out of the section headers. Tim riley talk 10:22, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nicely done - SchroCat (talk) 10:35, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Irene Handl, was given a German accent": why did Millar insist on buggering about with rather odd and pointless changes in nearly everything he did? Bloody infuriating and distracting it was most of the time!
- I entirely concur. I once sat through most of a Midsummer Night's Dream he did at the Almeida, where the fairies all had Scouse accents (when the poor young actresses could manage them). But to be fair he did a Marriage of Figaro for ENO that was wonderful - gimmick free and enchanting. Tim riley talk 10:22, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- "to the supposed gay subtext": as we've not been introduced to this theory at this stage, would linking down to the section work better?
- I've changed the definite article to an indefinite. I think that does the trick, but what think you? Tim riley talk 10:22, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Excellent - the same thought crossed my mind before I plumped for the other suggestion. - SchroCat (talk) 10:35, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Singapore in October 2004 ... London, in April 2005": Is there any need for the months?
- No. Blitzed throughout (I think and hope). Tim riley talk 10:22, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Your use of the serial comma isn't consistent
- Purged. Tim riley talk 10:22, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- FN6 - U.S. could happily live as just US
- Touché (but what about your full-stopped Mrs. Potts chez Chitty Chitty Bang Bang?) Tim riley talk 10:22, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Touché, indeed! - SchroCat (talk) 10:35, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Touché (but what about your full-stopped Mrs. Potts chez Chitty Chitty Bang Bang?) Tim riley talk 10:22, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- FN 14 (the French titles) could do with speech marks (as you have for FN 12): "The Importance of Being Serious", "It is Important to Be Loved", "It is Important to Be Desired" and "It is Important to Be Faithful". Either that, or have all the translated titles in italics.
- Good point. I'll ponder what to do about this. Have you any preference? Tim riley talk 10:22, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think probably italics (as it's still the play's title), but if someone complains with some part of the MOS I haven't read, it wouldn't surprise me. - SchroCat (talk) 10:35, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Have italicised. May reconsider - not wholly persuaded. Tim riley talk 13:24, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Me neither. If you decide to go with inverted commas, that's fine with me too. - SchroCat (talk) 13:26, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support - all good from me. - SchroCat (talk) 10:36, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, SchroCat. Excellent, helpful comments and gratefully received support. Tim riley talk 10:40, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:05, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
This article is about a Canadian pulp magazine from the 1940s that is now extremely rare. It carried no memorable fiction, but has some interest for historians of sf because it was the setting for an episode of one of science fiction fandom's early feuds, between Sam Moskowitz and Donald Wollheim, later both important figures in the field. The article is very short but I think contains everything that can be said about the magazine. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:05, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
HF - support
[edit]I'll review this soon. Hog Farm Talk 00:00, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Was the Coblentz novel serialized?
- Yes; I added the details. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:34, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Is it known why it took almost a year off after moving to the bimonthly schedule?
- Not as far as I can tell. I would guess difficulties caused by the war -- perhaps paper shortages -- but nothing I can source. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:34, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- "For the first four issues the format remained unchanged, and almost all the stories were by Kelley or other Canadian writers" - Ketterer's Canadian Science Fiction and Fantasy (here notes that the first six issues were "all-original" before US reprints began.
- Interesting; I hadn't seen that -- thanks for the link. I think Ketterer is wrong, though; see here -- the sixth issue included one reprinted story, "The Thought Monsters". I've added a sentence about the first five issues, citing Ketterer and also giving a note with the correction. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:34, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Good work as usual; I expect to support. Hog Farm Talk 01:09, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Image review
- Suggest adding alt text
- Added. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:34, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- File:Uncanny_Tales_logo.jpg seems likely simple enough to not qualify for copyright protection. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:08, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Probably, but I guess there's no harm leaving the FUR in place in case someone disagrees. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:34, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
UC
[edit]A nice little article -- I hope these comments/suggestions/queries are useful. UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:56, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Is the lack of infobox a conscious choice?\
- No; added. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:43, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- to stop buying Moskowitz' submissions: MOS:' would prefer Moskowitz's
- Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:43, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- the science fiction magazine field was booming: probably needs punctuation somewhere: the textbook solution is an endash between fiction and magazine (MOS:DASH)
- "science-fiction" does get hyphenated (rather than connected with an en dash) when used as an adjective, so I've gone with a hyphen here. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:43, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Most of the publishers: is it worth being clear that we're talking about American publishers here and in the preceding few sentences?
- Done -- I was thinking it was clear from context, but you'd have to know that the pulp business was fundamentally American rather than Canadian for that to be sufficient. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:43, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- a low word rate: hyphenate word-rate to avoid ambiguity (MOS:-)
- Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:43, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- a quarter of a cent per word: my usual refrain on currencies -- can we contextualise this? Was that a lot? How did it stack up with what writers usually got?
- The first issue was digest-sized: this paragraph is very long, and I must admit I had lost the thread of it by the end. Could we perhaps spin off the feud with Moskowitz into its own thing?
- Split. The feud is most of the paragraph, but I split it at the point where we switch to Moskowitz's version and also separated the lead-in. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:43, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think risqué is a naturalised English word, but if we're going to treat it as French, we need to put it in language templates.
- Removed the italics. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:43, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- C.V. Tench: space after both initials.
- Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:43, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Can the table in "Bibliographic details" be right-aligned to preserve a left margin (MOS:ACCESSIBILITY)?
- Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:43, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- The table itself can be formatted for accessibility, though MOS:LTAB takes precedence as it's isn't, strictly, being used as a table.
- The price was 15 cents throughout except for the last issue, which was 25 cents: currency context once again.
Some replies above; more to come. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:43, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments
[edit]- Haven't read through the above so apologies for any duplication.........
- In the lead you say "Wollheim's and Moskowitz's later accounts of the relationship with Colby differ." but then only elaborate on one account. Maybe mention the other one for completeness.......?
- "The stories supplied by Sam Moskowitz included Moskowitz's own "The Way Back"" => "The stories supplied by Moskowitz included his own "The Way Back""
- "which appeared in the February 1942 issue; Stanton Coblentz's novel" - semi-colon should be a comma IMO
- That's it :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:01, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): ★ The Green Star Collector ★ (talk) 22:21, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
Mario Party: The Top 100 is a 2017 party video game developed by NDcube and published by Nintendo for the Nintendo 3DS; it is the fifth handheld game in the Mario Party series, as well as the third and final Mario Party game for the Nintendo 3DS family of systems. I previously successfully nominated this article for GA status just over a week ago for initial suggestions. I tried to model this article after FA Mario Party DS, and although it isn't as long as that for MPDS, I feel that it is well-written and covers all necessary information about the subject. As always, I am willing to hear any feedback and implement it as needed. ★ The Green Star Collector ★ (talk) 22:21, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
Image review
- Suggest adding alt text
- File:Mario_Party_The_Top_100.png needs a better FUR. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:14, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- I have added alt text for the infobox image and revised the other file's justification to the best of my ability. ★ The Green Star Collector ★ (talk) 23:49, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
Vacant0
[edit]As the GA reviewer, I believe that some improvement can be made to fit the FA criteria. I will leave comments during this week and perform spotchecks. --Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 19:51, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
LunaEclipse
[edit]Source review coming in a few days. lunaeclipse ⚧ (talk) 11:52, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
Skyshifter
[edit]- The first thing I've noticed is that many of the paragraphs in the lead, "Gameplay" and "Development" are very short and could be merged.
- "in November 2017, and was released in PAL regions and in Japan in December 2017." — why not include the exact date, or the Japanese release date?
- "However," — why "However"?
- In "Gameplay" it is not mentioned that the game is a compilation. The first sentence of that section should also mention that it is a party game.
- "visually and audibly updated" is strange, could be more direct with "received upgraded graphics and audio"?
- Include "(AI)" after "artificial intelligence", as you use the acronym AI later in the article
- "most of which are hosted by..." — what does hosting mean?
- "NPC" should be explained.
- Link "multiplayer"
- "3DS download play" should be a proper noun? ("3DS Download Play")
- "supports Amiibo compatibility" is redundant; should be either "has Amiibo compatibility" or "supports Amiibo".
- "Development" should be renamed to "Development and release"
- "in which it was revealed" through the end of the paragraph just repeats what already was in Gameplay, so it should be removed, except that "An overview trailer [was] released the following month".
- "Less than two months after it was announced" — I don't think this is relevant
- "The game succeeded Mario Party: Star Rush..." seems unnecessary
- "Like all Mario Party games from Mario Party 9 onwards" seems unnecessary
- "Mario Party: The Top 100 was developed by NDcube and published by Nintendo" should be the first sentence of that section, chronologically
- "(as well as five game boards)" seems unnecessary
- "though Matt West of Nintendo World Report suggested that the control schemes..." this is not related to "graphical and audio enhancements" and shouldn't be placed here
- "Even" doesn't seem like a neutral word to use here
- "As with most entries in the Mario Party series" — is this confirmed by the sources, or relevant?
- You went with two quotes for the last paragraph of "Critical response"; why give so much emphasis to these? Is it possible to merge them in other paragraphs or paraphrase?
- The Common Sense Media review should be used if it's in the article.
Skyshiftertalk 18:05, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for your suggestions for improving the article. I have implemented most of them and will do my best to explain the rest here:
- The game was released in PAL regions and in Japan in the same month (December), but not on the same date (December 22 and 28, respectively). "November 2017" is used for the time of release in North America instead of "November 10, 2017" for consistency.
- "However" is intended to note the difference between the game being a minigame compilation and most games in the series being oriented on board game play. If it would suffice, "Mario Party: The Top 100 is primarily a compilation of 100 minigames from across the series, specifically ones from the home console installments." could be changed to "Mario Party: The Top 100 deviates from the classic Mario Party format in that it primarily serves as a compilation of 100 minigames from across the series, specifically ones from the home console installments." or something to that effect.
- Two months is a very short period of time between a Mario game's announcement and its release, and to my knowledge, it is one of the shortest spans for a game in the entire franchise, so I feel that this is worth including.
- Computer Games Magazine's Jordan Biordi does allude to frustration with games throughout the series relying on luck, stating: "It is pointlessly roundabout and in keeping with the series' progress, more reliant on dumb luck than anything you actually did." Additionally, Polygon's Allegra Frank writes: "Mario Party gets a bad rap. Yes, Nintendo's virtual board game can be aggravating — much of it is left up to chance, after all, and it's hard not to feel personally slighted by the random algorithm."
- The two quotes at the end of the "Critical response" section are intended to summarize both the game and its impact on the future of the Mario Party series as a whole.
★ The Green Star Collector ★ (talk) 22:26, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:20, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
Hi everyone, after some time away (partly down to being unable to access newspapers.com through TWL) I am back with yet another article on a Gillingham F.C. season. I attended most of the matches mentioned herein, and my two abiding memories of this season are being enthusiastically hugged by a total stranger when Gillingham equalised for the second time against Arsenal and the moment when a Crewe player took a penalty kick so bad that the ball hit a house outside the stadium. Feedback as ever will be most gratefully received and swiftly acted upon! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:20, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
Image review - pass
[edit]The article contains the following images:
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jlloyd_Samuel.jpg
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jason_Brown_goalkeeper_coach_Arsenal_Ladies_Vs_Notts_County_(20054335525)_(cropped).jpg
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_last_ever_game_at_Highbury.jpg
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:East_stand,_Kassam_Stadium,_Oxford_United_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1705831.jpg
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Marlon_King_vs_Antwerp_(cropped).jpg
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AndyHess2009.jpg
All images are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution. They are all relevant to the article and placed at appropriate locations. All images have alt-text but I'm not 100 % happy with some of the alt-texts. For example, the alt-text of "Jlloyd_Samuel.jpg" says "Football Jlloyd Samuel". This should presumably be "Footballer". This is also a problem for some of the other photos of the players. I would include a description of the medium, i.e. "Photo of...". The alt-text of "AndyHess2009.jpg" says "Footballer...". In this context, would it be better to describe him as a manager? The captions are fine. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:12, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Phlsph7: - I tweaked most of the alts, let me know what you think -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:50, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, that resolves the concerns. Phlsph7 (talk) 15:19, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments from Eem dik doun in toene
[edit]- "of the campaign for a transfer fee" ==> maybe add a comma between "campaign" and "for"
- "in the UK" ==> in the United Kingdom
- "After a 2–1 defeat at home to Coventry City" ==> home can be linked earlier (e.g., at "The highest attendance recorded at the club's home ground" (lede) and "in a 5–0 victory for the home team")
- "distance of nearly 40 yards" ==> also convert this to metres
- "Jason Brown (pictured in 2005)" ==> this picture is from 2015
- "A week later, they lost 3–1" ==> A week later, Gillingham lost 3–1
- The image captions of "Gillingham were eliminated from the FA Cup at Arsenal Stadium." and "Gillingham won at the Kassam Stadium, home of Oxford United, with a goal in the final minute of extra time." could both do with a "(pictured in ....)"
- "and the championship of the Premier League" ==> I would shorten it to just "and the Premier League"
- "and avoiding relegation only" ==> "and avoided relegation only"
- Another great read! Had to chuckle when reading that part about the Crewe penalty miss. Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 18:36, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Eem dik doun in toene: - many thanks for your review, all addressed now I think! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 18:45, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support - Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 20:27, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Eem dik doun in toene: - many thanks for your review, all addressed now I think! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 18:45, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
Placeholder from NØ
[edit]I will get to this before the weekend.--NØ 02:50, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
Support from Alavense
[edit]- This edit by the bot made you lose some of the edits you'd made earlier. You might want to check them.
- Following a 2–0 victory over Portsmouth on 26 December - Can it be stated that this was the home game with the highest attendance of the season?
- Following a 2–0 victory over Portsmouth on 26 December, Gillingham's final game of 2001 was three days later at home to West Bromwich Albion - The sentence as a whole reads a bit weirdly, because one would think that only the second match was played at home.
- I'd include the {{Abbr}} template for both "No." and "Apps" in the table.
That's what I saw. Kind regards, Alavense (talk) 07:52, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Alavense: - all done. Thanks in particular for picking up that first one, no idea quite what happened there..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:46, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- No problem. I guess you ran the bot, it took its time and in the meantime you made those edits, which were then lost when the bot completed its task. I enjoyed the read and the details I pointed out have been addressed, so I'm happy to support. Kind regards, Alavense (talk) 09:02, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): joeyquism (talk) 00:30, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
The Motherland Calls is, without a doubt, the quintessential post-Soviet Russian statue. Dedicated to the Soviet soldiers that died in the Battle of Stalingrad, it depicts Mother Russia holding a sword aloft, calling out to the Soviet people to take up arms and fight against the enemy, and stands at a mammoth height of 85 meters (279 ft). Despite its cultural importance, it has faced its fair share of disrepair and poor maintenance in the many years following its dedication, and has been the subject of a number of incidents, some of which are, in my opinion, a bit funny (albeit unfortunate) to read about.
Took this to GA on July 30 - courtesy pings to Jaguarnik and Vacant0, who both assisted in the review. This is also my first non-music FAC!
Comments from Mike Christie
[edit]- "although post-renovation critiques and new structural issues have since persisted": "persisted" doesn't seem like the right word, since it implies the issues previously existed, but we say the structural issues are new and the critiques date from after the renovation.
- Changed to "arisen".
- "was historicised as the turning point in the war": I don't know what "historicised" is intended to convey here.
- Contextualized more in the given sentence. I more so meant to say that Soviet history textbooks were referring to the battle as the turning point in the war.
- "the first museum honoring the Great Patriotic War had been established as early as March 1943": I think "was established" would work better; we haven't got a later time frame from which we're looking back at this point in the paragraph.
- Changed to "was established"
- "Vuchetich started petitioning for the commission to design the monument in the early 1950s": as written this says he wanted the commission to do the design. I suspect we want something like "Vuchetich started petitioning the commission for permission [or "authorization"] to design the monument in the early 1950s", depending on what the source will support.
- The source states that "Vuchetich began actively lobbying to secure what was arguably the USSR's most prized commission: the appointment to design a monument commemorating the Battle of Stalingrad", so the way it's written seems correct to me. If I'm missing something, please let me know and I'll fix it.
- "took heavy inspiration from": "heavy" doesn't seem like the right word here. Perhaps "much of their inspiration"?
- Yeah, that sounds better. Done.
- Some of the details in the first paragraph of "Design and style" seem to belong in Mamayev Kurgan#Memorial Complex rather than here, as they're not about this statue. Obviously some summary is necessary, but there's quite a bit of detail here that doesn't seem necessary for this article.
- I agree with you there, although I will say that I did try my best at cutting down the details when I was initially writing the article. If you have any suggestions as to what I should cut, please let me know - either way, I'll get to condensing this tonight.
- "Vuchetich refused this proposition": not very natural phrasing; and did Vuchetich have the authority to refuse unilaterally? Or would it be more accurate to say he disagreed, or persuaded them otherwise?
- I think it would be more accurate to say "objected to the proposition", as that would be more true to the source material. The degree of his authority is never explicitly mentioned in the Palmer source, but there are mentions of him being able to boss around the Volgograd oblast government executives and even some of the Politburo members, so I think it's safe to assume (in general, not for the purposes of this article) that Vuchetich was the big man in charge of the project.
- "the already-excessive budget": "excessive" is a value judgement we shouldn't make in Wikipedia's voice. Do you mean that the budget was large and it grew larger, or specifically that the budget had already been overrun and that this increased the overrun?
- This is what the source says:
The project's expenses were spiraling out of control. In early October 1960 a revised estimate ordered by the Council of Ministers set the price of the memorial complex at 48.2 million rubles, nearly 9 million rubles (22 percent) over its initial budget... The matter did not end here. When a subsequent audit in mid-1961 produced an even higher figure, the Council of Ministers was forced to make a dramatic decision. All of the complex's sculptural elements would now be constructed entirely of concrete... the revised estimates to complete the project stood at 53.9 million rubles, a 30-percent increase over the amount originally budgeted in 1958. Resigned to this reality, on September 6, 1961, the Council of Ministers approved the new amount. Ironically, however, even as some state officials moved to curtail rapidly rising expenses a problematic and costly new requirement was imposed on the design. The height of the main monument was nearly doubled from its original 100 feet to just over 170 feet (30 meters to 52 meters).
- From what I can discern, the budget had already been overrun multiple times, and the height increase had only served to exacerbate those costs. I'll come up with a better way to word/contextualize this if needed.
- Might be worth mentioning the height of the Statue of Liberty since it's relevant at that point.
- Done. I feel that the way I've worded it ("the Statue of Liberty, which stands at 46 metres (151 ft) tall") is a bit awkward; let me know your thoughts on this.
- "After rejections from the Sculptural Group of the Artistic Fund and the Volgogradgidrostroi": I don't understand this -- these two groups were approached to lead the construction, and they said no? And what is the Volgogradgidrostroi?
- "Throughout 1963, Nikitin's design team meticulously planned the construction process for the monument, finalizing their designs by August": if they were done by August the planning did not last throughout 1963. And I don't think you can say "meticulously planned" over a period of time; it's a statement about a completed process.
- The second paragraph of the "Construction" subsection seems to repeat itself a little -- we get "the need to ensure the foundation's ... soil stability", then "the hill could only support the structure if the moisture of its soil remained low" and then "was essential to prevent structural instability", within three sentences. The drainage is mentioned more than once too.
- "The statue ... would utilize" and "The statue's structure would feature": why "would" rather than just "used" and "featured"? If this refers to plans that did not come to pass, I'd go with something like "was intended to". There are several other uses of "would" in the paragraph; I think they would all be better structured as statements of intention -- for example "A radio transmitter was installed in the statue's head in order to transmit data on ...".
- "that was previously developed": suggest "that had been developed".
- "between 25–60 centimetres (9.8–23.6 in)": see MOS:RANGE: "Do not mix en dashes with between or from".
- "yet challenges persisted": I think this can be cut -- the following paragraph takes us back to May 1966, to describe the issues with the sword, so the reader doesn't know what this refers to.
- "and the Pantheon, which had replaced the Panorama due to issues with its own foundation": as written "its own foundation" refers to the Pantheon's foundation, but I think you mean the Panorama's foundation.
- Why do we get the details of the problems with the Pantheon's glass? This seems like it belongs with in Mamayev Kurgan#Memorial Complex, though since it was a risk to the opening date I can see some mention is needed.
- "describing its purpose as a tribute to the heroism of Stalingrad's defenders": I think this is imprecise. The statue's purpose is to act as a tribute; the tribute is the statue, not the statue's purpose.
- "were to be treated with a waterproofing agent once a year": this describes an intention, but if this happened we should say so.
- "its height had deviated an additional 60 millimetres (2.4 in) from its original axis": a height doesn't have an axis. Do you mean that the statue was tilting, enough so that the top of the statue presumably the tip of the sword) had moved 60 mm to one side?
- "was subsiding as a result of rising water levels": I don't know if the sources will let you say more, but this seems odd -- there can't be much hydrology at the top of a hill.
- "Estimated costs to repair the structural issues required over 7 million USD": the estimated costs didn't require this much money; they were this much money; or say tha the repairs required this much.
- "previous attempts to allocate government funds for restoration had been undermined by misappropriation": does the source give any time period for this? It seems out of chronological order where it is now, because of the "had been".
- I think "piezometric network" needs a few words of inline explanation; a typical reader of an article about a statue won't know what this is about.
- "after the end of the 2018 FIFA World Cup": suggest "which was held in Russia" to make it clear to the reader why this is relevant.
- Is the article in British English or American English? I see "mythologised" and "historicised", but several instances of "meter" rather than "metre".
- "the pedestal's slabs permanently excluded": I don't understand this.
- "his comments received backlash": I don't think you can use "backlash" as a mass noun in this way.
- Can we get a word or two to explain who Navalny is?
- Why was Cruz criticized for including a picture of the sculpture? What was the basis for the criticism?
- I'm not sure the video games are worth mentioning, unless a source about the statue (not primarily about the video games) mentions the connection.
-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:01, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the comments, Mike Christie. I'll get to these in the next few days or so - I've addressed a few of them already. joeyquism (talk) 17:03, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): 750h+ 12:51, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
This is my fifth featured article nomination, after doing four successful nominations on Aston Martin cars. This article is about one of the most important and influential electric vehicles of the 21st century. This is a 5,000-word article with c. 270 references, meaning it is the longest and most-referenced article I've brought here. I believe this article, however, is excellently written, well-referenced, and comprehensive, making for a great read. I plan to win the half-million award with this one, so any comments I receive i'll appreciate; and thanks for reviewing! 750h+ 12:51, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
UC
[edit]- The Daily Telegraph described the Model S as a "car that changed the world", but Road & Track called it "perhaps one of the worst [cars in the world]: unfortunately, this doesn't quite hold -- the Road & Track review is specifically about the "Plaid" version, and it's from ten years later -- it's pretty clear in context that they're talking about a) a decline in quality over successive versions of the Model S and b) the fact that its competitors have gotten better. Fine for the body, with proper context, but badly misleading as presented in the lead.
- fixed. hope this is better
- It is, but now I have WP:DUEWEIGHT concerns about giving such a prominent position in the lead to a review in a single, not particularly authoritative, publication. I'd be happier if we could show that there was a broader trend whereby critics had reviewed the Model S very positively on debut but increasingly become harder on it. We're still slightly misrepresenting R&T, who do after all acknowledge the car as one of the most important ever made a sentence or so previously. UndercoverClassicist T·C 19:20, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- i think this is better
- Sorry to keep poking this one, but I still don't think we have WP:TSI between what the source is actually saying and how we have presented it. At the same time, we do need some measure of the negative reaction to the vehicle in the lead. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:04, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I removed "initially", but i don't think i can see any other problems with TSI (it's nearly exactly what the source says). 750h+ 16:18, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- The words exist in that source, but R&T are pretty clearly a) talking exclusively about the Plaid version, which we don't make clear, and b) making a relative statement that largely depends on how good other EVs have become. For them, it's largely about Tesla failing to keep pace with its competitors, whereas we've presented it as a story of the Model S becoming objectively worse. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:23, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oh. Okay i think that's fixed (hope this is the last one) 750h+ 09:16, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- The recent edits need a good proof-read -- a few errors have slipped in through the cutting/pasting process. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:18, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Fixed. 750h+ 09:29, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- The recent edits need a good proof-read -- a few errors have slipped in through the cutting/pasting process. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:18, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oh. Okay i think that's fixed (hope this is the last one) 750h+ 09:16, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- The words exist in that source, but R&T are pretty clearly a) talking exclusively about the Plaid version, which we don't make clear, and b) making a relative statement that largely depends on how good other EVs have become. For them, it's largely about Tesla failing to keep pace with its competitors, whereas we've presented it as a story of the Model S becoming objectively worse. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:23, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- i think this is better
- It is, but now I have WP:DUEWEIGHT concerns about giving such a prominent position in the lead to a review in a single, not particularly authoritative, publication. I'd be happier if we could show that there was a broader trend whereby critics had reviewed the Model S very positively on debut but increasingly become harder on it. We're still slightly misrepresenting R&T, who do after all acknowledge the car as one of the most important ever made a sentence or so previously. UndercoverClassicist T·C 19:20, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- fixed. hope this is better
- in c. 2007: abbreviations are generally a bad idea in flowing text. Why not just "around 2007"?
- done
- after a dispute with Elon Musk, the company's chief executive officer: Tesla's or Aston Martin's CEO?
- done
- Tesla acquired a facility in Fremont, California, from Toyota, which had previously been used by both Toyota and General Motors: a run-on sentence which has ended up somewhere strange: had Toyota previously been used by both Toyota and GM?
- fixed
- Constructed mostly of the aluminum: no the, but things are generally constructed from materials in English.
- my bad, fixed
- These updates typically include modifications to the motor: should maintain the past (or past perfect) tense, as in the previous sentence: either included or have typically included.
- done
- priced from $50,000 to $70,000: recommend an inflation template here, as this will increasingly be out of sync with readers' intuition as time goes on
- done
- The the in "the Fisker Karma" shouldn't be linked.
- fixed
More to follow. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:22, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the comments. I hope the article’s been a good read so far. 750h+ 16:50, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
It has, though I'll admit to knowing very little about cars or Tesla. A few more:
- Musk subsequently filed a lawsuit against Fisker, accusing him of stealing Tesla's design ideas and using the $875,000 to launch his own company.: Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't see where this $875,000 is meant to have come from?
- fixed
- Fisker ultimately won the lawsuit: can we say when this happened? Was it all ongoing while the later development events happened?
- done
- Dispute between Musk and Fisker arose after the latter started his own company and began producing the Karma (pictured).: we need either a dispute or disputes here.
- done
- Both cars shared a chassis, and the engineers assessed every part of the vehicles, evaluating their positives and negatives.: this seems a bit verbose, and possibly hyperbolic: did they really evaluate every part of the vehicles (down to the cup holders?) Suggest something like evaluated different aspects of the two vehicles.
- done
- Tesla engineers initiated a project to construct another electric CLS: at this point, are we talking about "another electric car based on the CLS"? Was it really {'exactly the same thing
- they used a different CLS
- early Model S specifications: strictly speaking, Model-S should be hyphenated here as a compound modifier.
- done
- the decision to construct it entirely from aluminum was clear: not quite idiomatic English, and it's not clear in context whether the decision was obvious (a dubious statement in Wikivoice) or whether Musk said that it was.
- fixed
- To accelerate the development of the Model S, one group of engineers worked during the day, while another arrived at 9 p.m. and worked through the night, : I don't totally understand how this is necessarily faster than having two groups working at the same time on civilised hours, but that may be a problem for Musk rather than for you
- However, a month after the last car—a Corolla—rolled off the manufacturing line in April 2010: not sure the make of this car is really relevant in this article. "Rolled off the line" is a MOS:CLICHE. See, later, the first production Model S roll off the manufacturing line
- fixed
- US$42 million, while Toyota invested US$50 million : as above, I would inflate these currency amounts. We don't generally add the US before $ unless there's some reasonable chance of confusion (for example, if the article also includes Canadian or Australian dollars).
- done
- completed in the basement of an office: there are quite a few possible cases of MOS:OVERLINK throughout, but I think this one is pretty undeniable -- it's the everyday meaning of an everyday word.
- fixed
- The car's launch event occurred in a section of the facility where the cars are completed: perhaps I'm missing something, but that seems obvious from the preceding sentence -- they could hardly have watched it be finished anywhere else?
- this is the launch event. Usually launch events take place at motor shows like Geneva Motor Show for example, but this one took place at the fac
- Ah, so this isn't the same as the event on 22 June 2012? Can we put a date on it, then? UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:53, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- this is the same date. the launch event just took place at the facility 750h+ 15:35, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, so this isn't the same as the event on 22 June 2012? Can we put a date on it, then? UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:53, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- this is the launch event. Usually launch events take place at motor shows like Geneva Motor Show for example, but this one took place at the fac
- Lots of multi-cites in the Design section, and later, make reading tough going. I would suggest that some of these can probably be removed, but if we must have three citations for a sentence, can you bundle them for readability? The method used in note 3 is a bit clumsy: you could use the Refn template for a smoother way.
- fixed
- the drag coefficient as Cd=0.24: simply as 0.24, surely?
- that's the general layout (it's a template Template:Cd)
- Right, but I don't think that template is appropriate for this use-case. We wouldn't say {{{1}}} or {{{1}}}. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:53, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- done
- Right, but I don't think that template is appropriate for this use-case. We wouldn't say {{{1}}} or {{{1}}}. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:53, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- that's the general layout (it's a template Template:Cd)
- a graphite/silicon anode, and a nickel-cobalt-aluminum cathode: I know nothing about these, but just checking that the slash and the hyphens are meant to be different here?
- yep
- In the caption of the Model S and Model X, suggest italicising (left) and (right), as you did for (pictured) further up with the Karma vehicle. Ditto in the dashboard picture further down.
- done. i don't think the dashboard picture requires it
- extending the range by an additional 40 miles (64 km) of range.: no need for of range.
- my bad, done
- The former produces 235 kilowatts (315 hp) and 325 newton-meters (240 lb⋅ft),: would add of power and of force (torque?) as appropriate.
- done
- rear-wheel drive: either rear-wheel-drive or rear wheel–drive. I suspect there are other examples.
- done
- Intel Atom-based: endash here, not hyphen.
- done
- The 2021 Model S also introduced the "yoke" steering wheel: this makes it sound like it was the first vehicle to have one of these, which of course it wasn't, though it might have been one of the first mass-market cars to do so.
- done
- "Radar" isn't capitalised in mid-sentence.
- done
- Autopilot uses cameras, Radar and ultrasound to detect road signs: at least since 2021, Tesla doesn't actually use the radar: our article on Tesla Autopilot has A tear down of a HW4 Model S and Model X car in 2023 revealed that they have high definition radar hardware, but the software did not use radar. Likewise, it hasn't used ultrasound for at least a year. Teslas currently drive entirely by camera, which is widely considered a problem -- it would be worth mentioning this, and the many issues that Autopilot has had, at least briefly. It's a little misleading to state all of these supposed capabilities without mentioning that they, quite famously, don't exactly work.
- fixed
- I still think we have a DUEWEIGHT problem here -- almost nothing is mentioned in this section of the many reviews/reports saying that Autopilot doesn't work as advertised and is dangerous. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:53, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've added some information about some of its problems, with a footnote leading to the article about all of its problems
- Better, though we still are missing the demise of ultrasound, and have misrepresented what Tesla Vision is -- it's a branding name for only using cameras, not (as we imply) a new type of camera. I'm also not sure we've really got the point across here -- we've talked about misleading advertising, but slightly glossed over the fact that the features which are definitely promised don't always work very well. The first paragraph of Tesla Autopilot#Dangerous and unexpected behavior, with biblio, is relevant here. A very boring formatting thing, but we should use a section symbol (§) in the footnoted link text. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:04, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've added the discontinuation of ultrasound and fixed Tesla Vision name. I've added information from the third point. And i actually was to add the "§", i forgot (thanks for that). 750h+ 16:27, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've added some information about some of its problems, with a footnote leading to the article about all of its problems
- I still think we have a DUEWEIGHT problem here -- almost nothing is mentioned in this section of the many reviews/reports saying that Autopilot doesn't work as advertised and is dangerous. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:53, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- fixed
- For charging outside the home, Tesla has partnered with businesses to install Tesla Wall Connectors to provide a charging network called Tesla Destination: the tone of this reads a bit like a press release to me.
- fixed
- the battery swap program hyphen on battery-swap.
- added
- We've given Tesla's case that nobody was interested in battery swapping, but there's a WP:DUEWEIGHT problem here -- most people don't take that excuse remotely seriously; it's more that actually doing that at scale is a stupid idea, and just about everyone knew that from the beginning.
- it was reported however, and that is what a good amount of sources say [1] [2]
- Right, but other explanations were also put forward -- see for instance that swapping batteries would make less money than charging, that battery-swapping isn't practical when you have to swap a huge part of the vehicle, that battery swapping is capital intensive and creates economic issues when the batteries lose value, that maintaining the necessary reserve stock of bulky, expensive batteries is economically and environmentally unwise. It was also reported that Musk wasn't being entirely ingenuous about the low demand, given that they set up their trial of battery swapping in a way that you would expect to generate little demand. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:53, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I have added two parts from there, i don't think the rest are necessary though, since three of sources did mention the little demand.
- it was reported however, and that is what a good amount of sources say [1] [2]
- Tesla claims to recycle all returned battery packs and states that Gigafactory 1 is able to recycle a significant portion of the elements from old batteries, moving towards a "closed loop" system where old batteries are turned into new ones: likewise, I think we need to mention what other people think of this claim. "A significant proportion" is WP:WEASELWORDS -- what counts a significant?
- done
- In February 2014, the Automotive Science Group published a study: who are these people, and why do they get a whole paragraph for a single study? Again, I worry about DUEWEIGHT, with a side effect that primary studies are always tricky things and we should be careful about reporting them directly, before they hit the secondary literature (not a perfect analogy, but lots of the points in WP:MEDRS apply). Likewise with the UCS studies in the following paragraph, with the additional caveat that these people are a pressure group, and are not pretending to be neutral.
- i've removed this, i was actually questioning this source before as it doesn't seem very notable
- The Nissan Leaf had the smallest life-cycle environmental footprint of any 2014 model year automobile available in North America.: why is that relevant in an article on the Model S?
- removed the paragraph
- CO2: should be formatted with the 2 in subscript.
- done
- its CO2 emissions in the United States, similar to the Model S, are equivalent to a gasoline-powered car : something has gone wrong here.
- oops fixed
- Why does MPG get capitalised but mph -- and practically all other units -- don't?
- fixed
Stopping here for now; more to follow, I hope. UndercoverClassicist T·C 19:20, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Tesla initially projected it would produce 1,000 units per month, aiming for a total of 5,000 units by the end of 2012. For 2013, Tesla anticipated quadrupling that. The company also expected to deliver around 500 vehicles to customers in the third quarter, with the remaining units scheduled for delivery in the fourth quarter. Tesla built its 1,000th Model S by October 31, 2012, and delivered 2,650 units by the end of the year. In the first half of the subsequent year, 10,050 units were delivered to customers.: this bit is a little hard to parse: I would suggest another run for clarity. Anticipated is a tricky word: here, as often, better as expected to quadruple... Do I read rightly that they missed by a lot -- they aimed for about 4,000 per month, and ended up with something like 1,700?
- so i've rephrased this. the latter sentence is correct
- The Model S was the first vehicle produced at the Fremont facility: by Tesla, as GM and Toyota had produced vehicles there earlier.
- done
- Deliveries to the Chinese market began on April 22, 2014, followed by Hong Kong in July 2014.: we could upset a lot of people here: suggest specifying mainland Chinese.
- done
- It is one of the world's largest producers of electric motors, energy storage products, vehicle powertrains, and batteries, manufacturing billions of cells annually.: it might be, but is this really due weight in an article about the car, not the factory?
- this does include what it manufactures, so the "electric motors, energy storage products, vehicle powertrains, and batteries, manufacturing billions of cells" would be parts the Model S has
- What's the meaning of the 5.7% at the bottom of the second review table?
- 5.7% chance of a rollover accident occurring
- Can we footnote that? It looks like they "scored" 5.7/100, which doesn't sound very good. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:53, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- done
- Can we footnote that? It looks like they "scored" 5.7/100, which doesn't sound very good. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:53, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- 5.7% chance of a rollover accident occurring
- Per MOS:CAN'TREMEMBERBUTI'MSUREICANFINDITLATER, we should really rewrite the bulleted recalls section in prose -- in particular, I would look to draw out common threads between the recalls, the issues they highlighted with the cars and the processes behind them, and their consequences with Tesla, regulators, consumers etc.
- i have written it out in prose, but i don't think the background behind them is too important
- I think WP:PROSELINE now applies in this section -- would advise giving it a rework, and trying to make it more of a distillation/explanation than an annalistic retelling of events in sequence. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:04, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- i have added some background to the vehicle affected by the recalls.
- I think WP:PROSELINE now applies in this section -- would advise giving it a rework, and trying to make it more of a distillation/explanation than an annalistic retelling of events in sequence. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:04, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- i have written it out in prose, but i don't think the background behind them is too important
- as both an influential and significant electric car: what distinction between influential and significant are we drawing here?
- removed one
- mentioned that "the introduction of certain features, such as a yoke-style steering wheel, has distracted from the flagship sedan's underlying brilliance, as has Musk's public image: MOS:SAID applies here: this is a statement of opinion. I think we need something here about what he was going on about re. Musk's public image.
- i added a footnote, i don't think any more about his controversies is necessary (if that's what you're referring to)
- and mainstream automakers [...] [struggled] to catch up": cut the and, surely?
- done
- Samuel Gibbs from The Guardian: I don't have a strong opinion either way, but elsewhere we've introduced major publications as "the newspaper [name]", and here we don't. We should pick a lane.
- done
- We have very little in the way of critical coverage of the Model S. Has any of the widespread criticism of Tesla regarding safety, sloppy manufacture and misselling of the self-driving functions been related to this car?
- i've added another review, which i think should be better
- White 2014 is throwing a Harvard error: I can't immediately see any citation to it.
- removed
- Personally, I would avoid redlinks, such as Automotive Science Group, in the bibliography: there, the attention they grab, in my view, outweighs their benefits.
- i think i've removed them
- Over their lifecycle, electric vehicles emit about half as much CO2 as comparable fossil fuel cars. However, the report assumes that electric materials are recycled at rates similar to other cars and excludes the issue of battery disposal due to limited data on current recycling practices and future intentions.: I have some worries about the generalised nature of this comment. This takes EVs as a class -- how do we know where the Model S, with all its various Tesla-isms around how it is manufactured, maintained and so on, sits in relation to other EVs? UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:04, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- i did remove a large part of the paragraph that didn't relate to the Model S and added "like the Model S" to specify that it was referring to the Model S. I don't think comparing the Model S to other vehicles that a reader may not have heard of is helpful
- For 2013, Tesla wanted to quadruple that. : "Wanted" is pretty vague -- I want to win the lottery and move to Hawaii. Did they make any sort of formal statement that they would do this, set it as a target, or so on?
- fixed, changed to "aimed". The source used is CNET, which (at the time) was reliable
- Tesla claims to recycle all returned battery packs and states that Gigafactory 1 is able to recycle around 92 percent of the elements from old batteries, moving towards a "closed loop" system where old batteries are turned into new ones: the million-dollar question here -- is that a credible claim? Tesla is, after all, famous for making bold statements that prove to be completely untrue. There are also some possible fault lines here -- how many batteries get returned? How much waste do you end up with when you recycle 92% of the elements? How bad is it not to recycle the other 8% -- are those the ones that cause problems?
- there have been no critics addressing whether this is true or not so i think it's best to leave it, as there are many reliable sources that address this.
- Just from a quick Google, I found quite a few sources putting caveats on it, most notably that Tesla doesn't really recycle post-consumer batteries, and that the process of recycling itself is made less effective by the way that Tesla design their batteries. See for example here, here, comments on the impact report here, and on recycling more generally here. UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:43, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- @UndercoverClassicist: I added some of the criticism from the Vice magazine (which was already used a source in the article, though others weren't reliable 750h+ 12:07, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think that would surprise the writers of Science (unless the website is someone different?). However, I wasn't trying to find all the available sources for you -- merely to point out that a very quick Google search flagged up that there is definitely a discussion here. I'd suggest following up the angles identified in the sources I mentioned into more scholarly and scientific work. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:24, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- there have been no critics addressing whether this is true or not so i think it's best to leave it, as there are many reliable sources that address this.
- @UndercoverClassicist: i think i've addressed your comments. any more? 750h+ 08:22, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- A couple of replies above, both new and from before -- probably not a complete set yet. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:53, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- @UndercoverClassicist: okay i think that should be it 750h+ 15:36, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- A few replies above. Honestly, my feeling from reading this is that, like all of our articles, it has been written by people who are interested in the topic, and -- like most such articles -- generally like the thing they are writing about. I still think that it's a little too quick to downplay or excuse the negative side of its subject, and to take what (particularly) Tesla say about it on trust.
- I have added all the possible background to the vehicles affected by the recalls, but didn't go too into detail (I think). Thoughts, @UndercoverClassicist:? 750h+ 18:05, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- @UndercoverClassicist: in case ping 750h+ 08:03, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I have a number of comments and replies above that are still "live", as far as I can tell. The recalls section is better than a list, but I would still look to reduce the number of sentences beginning with "On [date], Tesla [verbed]" to improve the prose quality. UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:16, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- @UndercoverClassicist: i hope this is better 750h+ 09:17, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- @UndercoverClassicist: fixed the spelling/grammatical errors 750h+ 09:41, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I have a number of comments and replies above that are still "live", as far as I can tell. The recalls section is better than a list, but I would still look to reduce the number of sentences beginning with "On [date], Tesla [verbed]" to improve the prose quality. UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:16, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oops, didn't see those new ones. Will address those now 750h+ 08:26, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- A couple of replies above, both new and from before -- probably not a complete set yet. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:53, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): Eiga-Kevin2 (talk) 00:03, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Godzilla Minus One is a 2023 monster movie by Takashi Yamazaki that won the Academy Award for Best Visual Effects this year. I've put so much effort into improving this article, which was recently promoted to GA, and I believe that it is now viable for FA status. Thanks to anyone who offers any feedback. Eiga-Kevin2 (talk) 00:03, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): (t · c) buidhe 19:03, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
This article is about the second largest Nazi mass killing, also one of the least known. I'm not a fan of the title, but I think the article is now ready for FAC after going through GAN and GOCE, for which I thank Catlemur and Miniapolis (t · c) buidhe 19:03, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
Drive-by comment from Joeyquism
[edit]There was a good point brought up on this article's talk page about its title. What I'm primarily concerned about is WP:NPOV with regards to the word "atrocities" - while anyone with a working conscience would, of course, label these acts as atrocities, I'm not sure if this is neutral phrasing. There's mention of using the term "war crimes" instead; perhaps this would be a better descriptor? If that term is incorrect due to sources saying otherwise/definitions imposed by authoritative bodies or simply just not to your taste (it would make the title longer and introduce another instance of the word "war"), let me know. joeyquism (talk) 03:11, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Buidhe: I might add that I should be able to commit to a full review soon, and I will likely start after my move in a couple of days (though moving efforts will ultimately take precedence). If I don't get anything down here within the next one-and-a-half to two weeks, you are welcome to ping me liberally. joeyquism (talk) 03:23, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for your feedback. My main objection to the title is that the article's scope is more broad—it covers the totality of experiences of prisoners of war, which were not necessarily atrocities or war crimes. In a lot of cases, the sources don't specify whether something is a war crime, although they are clear that many violations of the Geneva conventions occurred. (t · c) buidhe 03:44, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- This reasoning seems fair enough. I will not press on the title any further. joeyquism (talk) 04:53, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
UC
[edit]I will try to come back for a "proper" review, but two small points for now:
- As we only have the one map in the article, I worry that it gives the impression of representing the total scale of German advances into the USSR, when of course it shows only quite a small fraction of it. Two options, I think -- either add another one later on, to show advances up to Moscow/Stalingrad, or replace it with one that shows the whole campaign, perhaps phased by year.
- If we're going to use a German noun, like Blitzkrieg, as a native word in italics, we need to capitalise it. UndercoverClassicist T·C 14:39, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- The map was chosen to show the quick advances at the beginning of the camp which enabled the Germans to capture so many prisoners. I'm not attached to that map in particular, but I didn't see any others that made the speed of the advance as clear. I wonder if any confusion could be alleviated by explicitly pointing it out in the caption. Fixed the capitalization issue. (t · c) buidhe 22:38, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm imagining one with nice labelled lines, or coloured waves, showing the frontline at the end of each year, but I'm not sure if Commons has one of those. UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:00, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- this map exists but I thought it was harder for readers to take in than the one I used. (t · c) buidhe 12:50, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, pros and cons to each. Two maps might be the way to go? I might have a look on Commons and see if I can suggest anything sensible. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:14, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- this map exists but I thought it was harder for readers to take in than the one I used. (t · c) buidhe 12:50, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm imagining one with nice labelled lines, or coloured waves, showing the frontline at the end of each year, but I'm not sure if Commons has one of those. UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:00, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Captured Red Army soldiers (in infobox): is this quite complete -- wouldn't some prisoners have come from e.g. NKVD formations or the naval infantry? Suggest "Captured Soviet troops".
- Ok
- The Nazi leadership believed that war with its ideological enemy was inevitable: consider expanding this a little -- I know it's a long story, but it's somewhat germane to the point why the Nazis thought of the USSR as such an inevitable and hated enemy.
- Clarified the reasons the source gives for this belief
- preventative killings: sounds a little euphemistic: is this the term used in the literature?
- Yes, well, the source says "preemptive killings"
- Even worse, perhaps! But the point is clear enough, and perhaps "murders intended to terrorise the population into compliance" is a little mealy-mouthed: what we've got here works fine. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:33, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, well, the source says "preemptive killings"
- War aims included securing natural resources, including agricultural land to feed Germany, metals and mineral oil for German industry: cadence is better if you either lose the first comma or add one before the final and: at the moment, it's a little loose as to how each part flows together.
- I shortened the sentence by removing the last clause
- The vast majority of German military manpower and materiel was devoted to the invasion, which was carried out as a war of extermination with complete disregard for the laws and customs of war.: changing tone a little, can I just put on record my approval of this kind of phrasing -- it would be easy to shy away from being so straightforward about it out of mistaken NPOV concerns, but you do an excellent job of being absolutely explicit about what we are talking about while keeping everything well within what can be supported from the evidence.
- Informed by Nazi racial theory and Germany's experience during World War I,: I understand the first bit, but what does Germany's experience in WWI have to do with the idea that Muslims are "better" than Ukrainians?
- This factor was separate from Nazi racial theory (according to the source), which doesn't elaborate much but cites another highly reliable source that I can't check. During WWI the Germans recruited some nationalities into the war effort, but faced problems with "unreliability". (t · c) buidhe 13:46, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- by killing communist functionaries and Soviet Jews, it was expected that resistance would quickly collapse: the passive voice is tricky here ("by whom?"): suggest "they expected".
- Done
- Soviet prisoners of war were held under tighter control, and had a higher death rate: as this is a comparative statement, I would make it an explicit comparison: "than those of other nations"; "than those of western European ethnicity"? I'd be interested to know what the Nazis made of e.g. African and Asian troops fighting for the western Allies.
- Compared to those mentioned in the last couple of sentences : Soviet urbanites and ghettoised Jews. Made it more clear
- generally adhered to it with prisoners of other nationalities: perhaps not totally to the point here, but did this apply to e.g. black American soldiers, those believed to be gay, or Jews?
- Violations of the Geneva Convention with regard to other nationalities besides Soviet and Italian were the exception. Even yugoslav Jewish soldiers were not mistreated. It's true that there were some homosexuality cases involving pows but it was rare and probably not violating the Geneva Convention.
- That's ... good, I suppose? UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:42, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Violations of the Geneva Convention with regard to other nationalities besides Soviet and Italian were the exception. Even yugoslav Jewish soldiers were not mistreated. It's true that there were some homosexuality cases involving pows but it was rare and probably not violating the Geneva Convention.
- there were no legal gray areas: consider ambiguities per MOS:CLICHE?
- done
- Helmuth James Graf von Moltke was one of the few high-ranking officials: can we say what his position was?
- As the article says he supported treating all prisoners according to the Geneva Convention, is there a way to make this more clear?
- Sorry, I meant “position” as in his rank, job etc — we’ve said he was important, but can we be more specific? UndercoverClassicist T·C 19:13, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- he was in the Abwehr (t · c) buidhe 20:12, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Just looking at his Wikipedia page -- was he really all that high ranking? His job seems to have been fairly ordinary: when I hear "high-ranking", I think senior government ministers, generals, heads of agencies and so on: was he anything close to that? UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:39, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- Pohl says that "hardly anyone" (presumably on the German side) supported treating POWs according to the Geneva Convention. Revised (t · c) buidhe 13:41, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- As we've presented it, we've claimed to know that almost all people in Germany supported war crimes against Soviets. That's a big claim -- is that something Pohl a) alleges and b) could reasonably be able to prove? Otherwise, something like "Nazi officials", "figures within the regime", or similar might help. I don't think the point is wrong at all, but that makes it all the more important to be ironclad on the details. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:27, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Buidhe: I think this is the last unresolved issue here? UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:45, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry I missed this. The reason I wrote it the way I did originally was that I thought he was referring to officials with some influence on the actual policy, but technically there isn't explicit support for this in the text. After looking at the context I think it's clear that he is referring to views within the Wehrmacht, but it's unclear exactly which group of Wehrmacht personnel he is referring to. "The murder of Soviet prisoners of war was undoubtedly controversial within the Wehrmacht... Hardly anyone, however, advocated treatment of Soviet prisoners of war that was fully in line with international law; one of the few who did so was Helmut James Graf von Moltke." (t · c) buidhe 14:42, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Current phrasing is good, I think. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:15, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry I missed this. The reason I wrote it the way I did originally was that I thought he was referring to officials with some influence on the actual policy, but technically there isn't explicit support for this in the text. After looking at the context I think it's clear that he is referring to views within the Wehrmacht, but it's unclear exactly which group of Wehrmacht personnel he is referring to. "The murder of Soviet prisoners of war was undoubtedly controversial within the Wehrmacht... Hardly anyone, however, advocated treatment of Soviet prisoners of war that was fully in line with international law; one of the few who did so was Helmut James Graf von Moltke." (t · c) buidhe 14:42, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Buidhe: I think this is the last unresolved issue here? UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:45, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Just looking at his Wikipedia page -- was he really all that high ranking? His job seems to have been fairly ordinary: when I hear "high-ranking", I think senior government ministers, generals, heads of agencies and so on: was he anything close to that? UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:39, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- he was in the Abwehr (t · c) buidhe 20:12, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry, I meant “position” as in his rank, job etc — we’ve said he was important, but can we be more specific? UndercoverClassicist T·C 19:13, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- As the article says he supported treating all prisoners according to the Geneva Convention, is there a way to make this more clear?
- the rapid encirclement actions that the German commanders expected in the blitzkrieg: you will know more about this than me, but I gather that military historians are increasingly sceptical of the idea that Blitzkrieg was a coherent doctrine, rather than a post-facto myth that conveniently explained the rather inadequate Allied response to the invasion of France.
- I don't have any knowledge of this, actually, so I rewrote not to use the word blitzkrieg.
More to follow. UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:47, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Mark Edele gets the microphone for practically all of the section on why Soviet soldiers surrendered. Does this represent WP:DUEWEIGHT -- are there other voices of equal/greater weight that could/should be brought in here?
- None of the other books really address this topic.
- The Waffen part of Waffen-SS needs to be italicised (really, the whole thing should be in a lang template, but I'm not sure how well that plays with links plus regular italicisation).
- When Oxford, cambridge, Taylor&Francis and Elsevier don't italicize, I think Wikipedia should follow the more common usage.
- Red Army soldiers overtaken by the German advance without being captured were ordered to present themselves to the Wehrmacht: we've usually avoided gratuitously Germanising perfectly normal terms, which I think is the right way to go (I think this reddit thread puts the case quite well), but this seems to be an exception: why not "German Army" (or "German armed forces" vel sim), as we have used elsewhere? If we are desperate to use a German word, we should italicise and use lang templates.
- I've taken out all mentions of Wehrmacht in the article
- The number of Soviet soldiers captured fell dramatically after the Battle of Moscow in late 1941: is it worth being explicit that this was because the Germans started losing at this point?
- Pohl doesn't make this connection, I searched through the relevant chapter in Hartmann and he doesn't either. I will check if it's in the Quinkert book.
- Why does Dulag get an explanation but stalag not? The latter also needs a capital letter.
- Rewrote
- , when the Commissar Order was rescinded: I would rework this section a little, to initially explain what the Commissar Order was, then what happened under it, then what happened after it was rescinded. At the moment, we rely on the reader knowing or being able to infer what the order demanded.
- Done
- Contradictory orders were issued for the execution of female combatants in the Soviet army, who defied German gender expectations, but the orders were not always followed: can we be a little clearer as to what some of these orders were -- presumably, as with the commissars, a spectrum between "kill them all" and "treat them with particular respect"?
- Rewrite
- the OKW's Allgemeines Wehrmachtsamt.: see comment earlier about German terms -- if this one is really untranslatable, we should at least explain what it was in English.
- the Korücks,: likewise -- can we explain who these people were?
- To be honest, I don't really understand. I may do more research, or it may be that the intricacies of the chain of command are not WP:DUE (given that they aren't even mentioned in most of the sources). Update: I decided take out these couple sentences. (t · c) buidhe 13:51, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- A figure of 200,000 to 250,000 deaths in transit is provided in Russian estimates: we imply here that other estimates are available, or that these might not be above suspicion -- can we expand on either side?
- I only put it this way because both of the cited sources state explicitly that it is a "Russian estimate" (apparently from Rossija i SSSR ν vojnach XX veka. Statisticeskoe issledovanie. Red. G. F. Krivoseev. Moskva 2001)
- Make sure that date ranges, including in work titles, have endashes (I noticed Moore 2022).
- Fixed
- "barbed-wire fences" should have a hyphen, as a compound modifier.
- Done
- the encirclements of Vyazma and Bryansk: can we put an explicit date on this?
- Done
- The vast majority of prisoners (ethnic Russians) : I think this would be more grammatical as "Ethnic Russians, the vast majority of the prisoners, were not..."
- Done
- prisoners were released so they could volunteer for the Wehrmacht or the police: see my point earlier about the word Wehrmacht.
- About one-third became Hiwis: suggest explaining what Hiwis were.
- Reworded
- Wehrmacht soldiers often conducted the executions: as above.
- a stereotypically-Jewish appearance: MOS:HYPHEN says not to use a hyphen when the compound modifier is formed by a regular -ly adverb.
- done
- With Wehrmacht cooperation, Einsatzgruppen units: I think Einsatzgruppen may have to stay as untranslatable, but see earlier comments about Wehrmacht and lang templates.
- As with Waffen-SS, the majority of scholarly English language sources don't italicize.
- Very well, but we should then use lang templates (with
|italic=no
) to ensure that screen readers handle them correctly. Apologies if you've already done that. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:51, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Very well, but we should then use lang templates (with
- As with Waffen-SS, the majority of scholarly English language sources don't italicize.
- five to 25 percent escaped detection: MOS:NUM would like consistency.
- Done
- Invalid soldiers were in particular danger when the front approached. invalid meaning "sick" is only usually a noun: suggest "disabled", "soldiers too sick to work", or similar.
- Done
- if their responses were unsatisfactory, they were discharged from prisoner-of-war status: I think we should be a little more explicit as to what this means -- "discharged" often means "released", especially in a military context.
- Done
- Suggest knocking the "were" out of the "killed at Mauthausen" link to break the sea of blue.
- Done
- Hitler opposed recruiting Soviet collaborators for military and police functions, blaming non-German recruits for defeat in World War I.: would this point be useful further up to explain what we meant about Germany's WWI experience causing animosity to certain eastern European ethnicities?
- I could move it up but then it wouldn't explain in this section why Hitler opposed their recruitment, but his underlings disagreed.
- some having living conditions similar to Wehrmacht soldiers: another beat on the same drum, I'm afraid.
- 14 in the Turkestan Legion, nine in the Armenian Legion, eight each in the Azerbaijani and Georgian Legions, and seven in the North Caucasian and Idel-Ural Legions.: MOS:FIGURES again.
- Fixed
- Employers paid RM0.54 per day per man This and similar values a little later -- it seems intuitive that these are small amounts, but can we contextualise them vs. the price of something worth buying, or the wages of someone like a soldier?
- Add currency conversion, although I'm not sure how meaningful it is.
- the Channel Islands, where many died: my impression is that Jersey, at least, was a fairly 'tame' (by Nazi standards!) place to be, both for the soldiers and for the prisoners, at least until Germany started losing badly and food became more scarce. Is the conflation of Norway and the CI justified here?
- Maybe not for Soviet POWs because the cited source says "They also suffered the same privations and treatment as other Soviet prisoners". And according to another source hundreds or thousands of Soviet citizens died there.
- I stand enlightened. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:51, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe not for Soviet POWs because the cited source says "They also suffered the same privations and treatment as other Soviet prisoners". And according to another source hundreds or thousands of Soviet citizens died there.
- Unlike the Holocaust, where killings occurred far from Germany's borders : we need a mostly in here -- Dachau and Ravensbrück, for example, were certainly in Germany.
- The vast, vast majority of Jewish holocaust victims were killed east of Germany's 1937 borders. None of the death camps, ghettos, or mass execution sites were located in Germany's prewar territory. Unless they were in the army, a German could well have seen their Jewish neighbors rounded up but would not have witnessed anyone being killed, except perhaps at the very end of the war. Dachau and Ravensbrück, and other concentration camps (except Auschwitz and Majdanek which were located in Poland) were not used for mass executions of Jews.
- No, but Jews died in Dachau and Ravensbrück, didn't they? I agree there's a difference of degree, but we still surely need something like "almost all", unless we mean to exclude someone who starved or was beaten to death there from the victims of the Holocaust. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:44, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- What the cited source says is: "After 1945, many Germans claimed that they had not known about the murder of Jews, which had happened far away... Soviet POWs were dying in huge numbers in camps inside Germany by 1941 – a fact that was widely known and was occurring before most of the Jews had been deported and killed"
- I'm only going on what you have quoted here, but the word claimed is doing a lot of work there. I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that most Germans must at least have had a very strong inkling of what was happening to Jews (see e.g. here), even if they hadn't physically seen a death camp. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:51, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- We have an entire article on the subject, but I have rephrased the text. (t · c) buidhe 03:15, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm only going on what you have quoted here, but the word claimed is doing a lot of work there. I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that most Germans must at least have had a very strong inkling of what was happening to Jews (see e.g. here), even if they hadn't physically seen a death camp. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:51, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- What the cited source says is: "After 1945, many Germans claimed that they had not known about the murder of Jews, which had happened far away... Soviet POWs were dying in huge numbers in camps inside Germany by 1941 – a fact that was widely known and was occurring before most of the Jews had been deported and killed"
- No, but Jews died in Dachau and Ravensbrück, didn't they? I agree there's a difference of degree, but we still surely need something like "almost all", unless we mean to exclude someone who starved or was beaten to death there from the victims of the Holocaust. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:44, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- The vast, vast majority of Jewish holocaust victims were killed east of Germany's 1937 borders. None of the death camps, ghettos, or mass execution sites were located in Germany's prewar territory. Unless they were in the army, a German could well have seen their Jewish neighbors rounded up but would not have witnessed anyone being killed, except perhaps at the very end of the war. Dachau and Ravensbrück, and other concentration camps (except Auschwitz and Majdanek which were located in Poland) were not used for mass executions of Jews.
- The caption on the Hess at Minsk photo has a lot of links on common terms that were linked much earlier -- and, I'm afraid, I must ask about "Wehrmacht" again...
- It's often recommended to repeat links in captions
- About 500,000 prisoners had been freed by Allied armies by February 1945: is this just on the Eastern Front, or in the West as well?
- Only the Red Army, clarified
- German Army scorched-earth tactics: I would cut Army, as the air force played its role too. One might even consider cutting German too -- didn't the Soviets carry out scorched earth tactics as they withdrew?
- Source says German Army. I don't know if the Red Army used scorched earth tactics but the vast majority of war destruction seems to be attributed to the German occupiers.
- who fell into enemy hands or was encircled without capture: this seems rather harsh! Am I reading correctly that being surrounded made you a traitor if you didn't surrender?
- While Moore states, "Servicemen who had been captured and escaped, or who had been encircled but not captured—something that may have applied to up to a million men in the first weeks of the conflict—had been dealt with under the Soviet criminal code as though they had committed high treason and were therefore subject to execution and the confiscation of their property." I was curious about this and tracked down the source he cited (Pavel Polian, ‘The Internment of Returning Soviet Prisoners-of-War after 1945’, in Bob Moore and Barbara Hately-Broad (eds), Prisoners of War, Prisoners of Peace (Oxford: Berg, 2005) p. 127.) Polian does not say that this class of people was considered universally traitors, only that they were screened after the war to find traitors. I rewrote the sentence based on Edele and Polian; it seems like in theory you were not a traitor if you surrendered due to the impossibility of continuing resistance, but in practice you would fall under suspicion.
- That makes more sense: I suppose the (twisted) Soviet logic would have been that getting yourself encircled might show a less-than-stellar desire to fight and win: perhaps you only got into that situation because you weren't aggressive enough, or were hoping to be captured. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:44, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- While Moore states, "Servicemen who had been captured and escaped, or who had been encircled but not captured—something that may have applied to up to a million men in the first weeks of the conflict—had been dealt with under the Soviet criminal code as though they had committed high treason and were therefore subject to execution and the confiscation of their property." I was curious about this and tracked down the source he cited (Pavel Polian, ‘The Internment of Returning Soviet Prisoners-of-War after 1945’, in Bob Moore and Barbara Hately-Broad (eds), Prisoners of War, Prisoners of Peace (Oxford: Berg, 2005) p. 127.) Polian does not say that this class of people was considered universally traitors, only that they were screened after the war to find traitors. I rewrote the sentence based on Edele and Polian; it seems like in theory you were not a traitor if you surrendered due to the impossibility of continuing resistance, but in practice you would fall under suspicion.
- classified all surrendering commanders and political officers culpable deserters : better as as culpable deserters, or culpable as deserters. If the former, could cut culpable -- you can't be a not-culpable deserter.
- Done
- Trawniki men were typically sentenced : I would explain who these people were.
- It's explained in the military collaboration section. Should I repeat it here?
- I must admit that I missed it, so take from that what you will. It is quite a way up, even for more attentive readers. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:51, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- It's explained in the military collaboration section. Should I repeat it here?
- According to official statistics, "57.8 per cent were sent home, 19.1 per cent were remobilized into the army, 14.5 per cent were transferred to labour battalions of the People's Commissariat for Defence, 6.5 per cent were transferred to the NKVD 'for disposal', and 2.1 per cent were deployed in Soviet military offices abroad".: an odd place to quote -- this is just bare facts, so better as a paraphrase. It's minor, but the WP:NONFREE case here is not strong.
- Rewrote
- Different figures appear in the book Dimensions of a Crime. Soviet Prisoners of War in World War II: better as a colon, not a full stop, between title and subtitle -- but why give the title at all, rather than the author, as we've normally done with scholars' opinions?
- Non-notable authors, rephrased
- They were excluded from the Foundation Remembrance, Responsibility and Future fund: this could do with a bit of explanation -- it sounds from the article as though this was a Soviet thing.
- Done
- others belonged to the NKVD, People's Militia, were from uniformed civilian services: not grammatical: "to the NKVD or People's Militia, were from..."
- Done
- Christian Streit's landmark Keine Kameraden : landmark is a bit WP:PROMO, and I would translate the title for Anglophone readers.
- Rewrote
That's a first pass -- my admiration continues. Clear and authoritative throughout: purely on prose, I found the "death toll" section slightly less sparkling than the rest, but that may be a reflection of the difficulty of conveying what is essentially a long list of (rather harrowing) statistics. As ever, my respect for taking on such a challenging and important topic and conveying it so well. I hope these comments are helpful, and please do take them as the beginning rather than the end of a conversation. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:42, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support -- apologies for a long and no doubt torturous review, but I hope it's been to the article's benefit. Once again, huge respect for doing an excellent job with such a challenging subject. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:17, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Commentary from fifelfoo on all of 1, 1c (inflation specific), all of 2, 3 (textual quotation), 4, including plagiarism samplings
[edit]I appear to be liable to assist, for various reasons of past personal reading. And in that matter, if people believe my past editing in historiography of state murders would bias me or cause the appearance of bias, please ask me to cease my contributions immediately? I haven't done one of these in a while, so this may take some time, and my standards may be out of alignment with current standards (I did check back on customs and practices last year). If I can have 4 days to get through the major headings? Fifelfoo (talk) 10:53, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
1c Well-researched inflation specific: improvement needed
[edit]I am not attacking the sources selected, or the choice to make a calculation for the purposes of the readers' benefit. Nor am I attacking the choice of calculation for comparison (USCPI). But there are two problems with the inflations: US cents are not specified (a wide variety of nations use cents); Current footnote 190abc Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis 2019. doesn't indicate that the calculation was a triviality performed by editorial staff. Consider "Approximately 13 cents in contemporary US dollars,[189] or $2 today." and "Calculated using Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis 2019." Fifelfoo (talk) 10:53, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, I'm not attached to this way of indicating inflation, but I used it because it was already in other featured articles, including the Holocaust in Slovakia. I did add "United States" for clarification. (t · c) buidhe 14:36, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
1e Stability: support
[edit]I'm convinced the article is stable, I noted a series of 3K additions, and removals, the talk page appears to have been functioning when these emerged and raised them, and editors on the talk page sought as editors to reach a proper editorial resolution including asking for external assistance without prompting or conflict requiring such. Fifelfoo (talk) 10:53, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
3 Media: query
[edit]Have you considered using blockquotes drawn from primary sources which are themselves used in secondary sources as "typifying" of individual experiences? Text can act as media. It is useful for blending "colour" with "personal experience" and "voice from the era"? This is a query only, not a decline. Fifelfoo (talk) 10:53, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that the encyclopedia's goals include capturing "colour", "personal experience" and "voice from the era". Furthermore, you don't find many similar quotations in a lot of related articles, including FAs. I'm not opposed to quotations but I only add them if I feel that it increases the reader's encyclopedic understanding more than paraphrasing/rewriting, per MOS:QUOTE. (t · c) buidhe 14:36, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
4 Length: support
[edit]I am satisfied the length suits the topic, and the section lengths suit the importance of the sections to the encyclopaedic presentation. Fifelfoo (talk) 10:53, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I appreciate your review. (t · c) buidhe 14:36, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): Llewee (talk) 17:03, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
People who grew up in the UK might remember attending an infant school or the "infants" of their primary school. What they might not be aware of is that the concept has a long and complicated history; stretching from New York to New Zealand.
This is my second featured nomination. The article has recently been promoted to good status (See:Talk:Infant school/GA1). Thank you to anyone who decides to review it.Llewee (talk) 17:03, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments by Wehwalt
[edit]- Since the movement began in Scotland, could some lead mention be done as to whether infant schools flourished in Scotland?
- Frustratingly, I haven't been able to find much information about Scotland. Charitable infant schools certainly existed there in the early part of the movement but Scotland seems to drop out of the story at the middle of the 19th century. Presumably infant schools weren't adopted into the state system there to the same extent.--Llewee (talk) 21:31, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- It's not a complete picture but I have added more information about the history in Scotland into the body of the article.--Llewee (talk) 10:50, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- According to David Salmon and Winifred Hindshaw," What is their profession?
- The source says they were as senior staff at a teacher training college. I have described them as "educationalists in the early 20th century".--Llewee (talk) 22:19, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- "manager Robert Owen". Is manager the proper term or was the the owner or some such?
- The source says manager. I have added some additional detail and dealt with the false title issue.--Llewee (talk) 22:32, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- "He saw child labour as damaging and forbid children under the age of ten from working in his factory." Should forbid be forbade.
- done--Llewee (talk) 21:16, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Various other figures — including Robert Pole, David Goyder, William Wilson, William Allen and Thomas Bilby — also established infant schools and wrote books about the subject." Given that these are apparently not notable, though I did not check, are they worth naming?
- Taken them out, Goyder comes up in the US section but mentioning him here doesn't really add much additional info.--Llewee (talk) 22:44, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Academic David Turner" this and also Owen above, I thought false titles were disfavoured in British English?
- tweaked wording--Llewee (talk) 22:38, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- "T.B Stephens" Is this properly punctuated?
- Changed to "T.B."--Llewee (talk) 21:35, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- "making it easier for them to pay infant schools relatively low fees.[47]" An apostrophe somewhere, likely after schools
- reworded sentence--Llewee (talk) 13:21, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- "The number of children under seven in schools for older children also rose." I'm not a fan of having "also rose" refer back to a previous section. Perhaps begin, "Like workers' wages, the number of ..."
- I've changed "also rose" to "increased".--Llewee (talk) 21:43, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- "it would be sometime" some time?
- done--Llewee (talk) 21:16, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- More soon.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:32, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Some teachers failed to teach reading to poorer pupils, with no reason to develop an interest in the subject outside of school. " This sentence doesn't read as complete.
- Combined with previous sentence.--Llewee (talk) 13:21, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- "For instance, an employee of the Board of Education, Lord Eustace Percy later wrote in his memoirs:" He appears to have been president of the Board of Education (and earlier, parliamentary secretary), which are political positions held by members of Parliament. He was not an employee.
- Sorry I missed this one, changed to "political appointment".--Llewee (talk) 12:51, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Infant-stage children solving puzzles at a school in Dominion of New Zealand (c. 1900 – c. 1947)" I would omit "Dominion of".
- done--Llewee (talk) 14:14, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- "In order to encourage the freed workers to remain working there and spread Christianity among their children." Not a sentence.
- Combined with previous sentence.--Llewee (talk) 14:29, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- the owners power: missing apostrophe
- reworded--Llewee (talk) 14:29, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- "a system of state funded schooling in Ireland " redirects to Stanley letter. WP:EASTEREGG would seem to have some relevance.
- I've changed the link to "establish a system" to try to make clearer what the linked article is about.--Llewee (talk) 14:56, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm surprised throughout the Ireland section, there is no mention of religion.
- The Catholic Church is mentioned a lot in the book. I've added more information about its influence into the article but I'm trying to keep the focus on topics that are specifically relevant to infant schools/classes.--Llewee (talk) 17:31, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- "skepticism". I thought this was "scepticism" in BrEng.
- Yes, changed--Llewee (talk) 15:00, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Overtime maybe over time
- done--Llewee (talk) 15:04, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- That's it for now. I guess what strikes me at first glance is that this seems mostly about the past, the history, without much discussion of what present-day infant schools are like. Thoughts?--Wehwalt (talk) 01:27, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Wehwalt I think less information specific to infant schools exists for more recent times because they have gradually lost some of their separate identity. I have tried to flesh out the "part of primary education" section with more information.--Llewee (talk) 23:09, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Source review by Generalissima
[edit]Some general notes:
- I'm not sure thefreedictionary.com is the best source to use for the first ref; also, Collins and Merriam-Webster both state that its simply in use "in the UK". Since these have at least some history in Scotland, I think that'll be better to use.
- I have tidied up the terminology section and added a few dictionary sources.--Llewee (talk) 18:09, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ref 98 has an error that needs fixing.
- done--Llewee (talk) 22:50, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Grimshaw (1931) and Morgan (1936) needs the publisher put in title case.
- done--Llewee (talk) 22:47, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Capitalise Co in Longmans, Green, and Co.
- done--Llewee (talk) 22:47, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- You wikilink RTE News in bibliography, but not BBC News. Try for consistency one way or another here.
- done--Llewee (talk) 22:50, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Some of your sources aren't in title case and need to be converted to such; Garland, Keane et al, Lehane, Lewis, Pence, and Salmon.
- done--Llewee (talk) 13:25, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- University of Wales Press needs a location (Cardiff), as does Palgrave Macmillan (London), Routledge (Abingdon), Peter Lang (Laussane), and Taylor & Francis (Milton Park). Alternatively, remove location from all the cites that have it.
- Taken out the existing locations.--Llewee (talk) 23:01, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- You need to wikilink either all publishers or none of them.
- I think I have got all the ones that have articles now.--Llewee (talk) 11:25, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- Take "others=Internet Archive" out of the Pence cite. They didn't make the book. Also take out the via, since you (rightfully) Yaren't saying Via Jstor for the JSTOR cites.
- done--Llewee (talk) 23:06, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Add a space between the initials T.B Turner.
- done--Llewee (talk) 11:07, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- May et al Doesn't have an ISBN.
- added--Llewee (talk) 13:32, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- This is a very broad article in a field thats well-studied, so obviously we can't use all sourcing. I do feel like you're underusing modern educational journal articles though, and there might be some good ones we can find. Some sources that came up from a search which might be useful:
- Shannon, R. L., & Shannon, D. M. (1992). The British Infant School: A Reconsideration. The Educational Forum, 56(1), 61–69. https://doi.org/10.1080/00131729109335177 - Good sourcing for its influence outside of the UK.
- Monks, Claire P., and Sarah O’Toole. "Bullying in preschool and infant school." The Wiley Blackwell handbook of bullying: A comprehensive and international review of research and intervention 2 (2021): 2-19.
- Burger, Kaspar. "Entanglement and transnational transfer in the history of infant schools in Great Britain and salles d’asile in France, 1816–1881." History of Education 43, no. 3 (2014): 304-333.
- Luc, Jean-Noël. "The spread of infant school models in Europe during the first half of the nineteenth century." In The Development of Early Childhood Education in Europe and North America: Historical and Comparative Perspectives, pp. 31-50. London: Palgrave Macmillan UK, 2015.
- Raveaud, Maroussia. "Assessment in French and English infant schools: assessing the work, the child or the culture?." Assessment in Education: Principles, Policy & Practice 11, no. 2 (2004): 193-211.
- Blatchford, Peter, Viv Moriarty, Suzanne Edmonds, and Clare Martin. "Relationships between class size and teaching: A multimethod analysis of English infant schools." American Educational Research Journal 39, no. 1 (2002): 101-132.
That's about it for now. Let me know when you want me to take a second look, @Llewee:. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 18:32, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hi Generalissima, I have responded to each of your points now and expanded the article with information from journals. I hope you will be able to have another look when you have time.--Llewee (talk) 11:36, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
Image review
- File:British_Central_School_Borough_Road.png: when and where was this first published? Ditto File:Infant_gallery.png, File:Beckside_Infants_c.1900s_(archive_ref_DDPD-2-2-8)_(25384528296).jpg, File:First_Infant_School_in_Green_Street,_New_York_MET_MM82866.jpg
- The second image is from a book published in 1840 (See:https://archive.org/details/asystemforeduca00wildgoog/page/n130/mode/1up). I will have a look for the other ones in a moment.--Llewee (talk) 21:30, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- I found this which says the first image was published in 1834 in London.--Llewee (talk) 23:25, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't know about the third. I'm not sure if it was ever published before it was released on Flickr.--Llewee (talk) 23:40, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- I assumed the fourth one was 1828 in New York based on the information in the Wikicommons page and source.--Llewee (talk) 23:55, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- File:Which_is_your_Right_Hand%3F_A_study_in_an_Infant_School._(Graphic,_1898).jpg: copyright terms turn over on the new year, so life+100 tagging won't be correct until 1 January 2025.
- Changed to 95--Llewee (talk) 22:36, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- File:The_dog_(BM_1846,1219.12).jpg: the permission field and the licensing tags are contradictory here - NC images are considered non-free for our purposes
- The British museum gives this information on how to use it which links to CC BY-NC-SA 4.0 does that mean it's not available to use?--Llewee (talk) 22:36, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- File:The_Infant_Model_School,_with_Owen's_Original_clocktower.png: what is the specific source?
- This museum website says it was from The Teacher's Manual for Infant Schools and Preparatory Classes but I can't find the image in this copy of the book.--Llewee (talk) 20:00, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Also, not an image issue, but I would suggest a thorough review of the article for style. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:33, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
WhatamIdoing whinges about links and size
[edit]- There are 9,279 words, which will take half an hour to read. That's 0.3 tomats, so a third of a short novel. This is pushing the upper end of WP:SIZE, and reduces the odds that the whole article will get read.
- I have split of Spread of infant schools outside Britain and Ireland into its own article. The original article is now 7778 words. Is that short enough or do I need to split it further?--Llewee (talk) 10:09, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- It is missing obvious links to articles such as Moral education, Physical exercise, and Playground. I've looked at a sample of 188 randomly selected articles over 5,000 words in length, and they typically have between 200 and 500 links to other articles (median of 312, mean of 376). Infant school is at the low end, so it could be a case of needing more links, or it could be a case of not choosing the right links. I think that the former is more likely than the latter.
WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:33, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 18:38, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
At the turn of the century, Phil Elverum of the Microphones released the folk album It Was Hot, We Stayed in the Water. Although frequently overlooked in the following years (overshadowed by its younger sibling), the album still received critical acclaim, going on to be "widely regarded as [an] indie pop classic" and inspire "weirdo singer/songwriter[s]" everywhere. Thanks to @Gen. Quon: for mentorship on this nomination. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 18:38, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support I worked with PerfectSoundWhatever to punch up the article prior to this nom, and I think it's in a solid spot. The references are good, the prose (imho) reads nicely, and the topic is comprehensive without being unnecessarily exhaustive.--Gen. Quon[Talk] 00:20, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
750h
[edit]Will review. 750h+ 14:25, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- lead
- make the lead two paragraphs (per MOS:LEADLENGTH)
- The album was recorded on analogue tape ==> "The album was recorded on analog tape" (AmEng)
- The album was recorded on analog tape, and Elverum embraced the medium's technical imperfections. ==> "Recorded on analog tape, Elverum embraced the medium's technical imperfections"
- background and recording
- came to increasingly trust his musical abilities. ==> "came to trust his musical abilities increasingly."
- Prior to It Was Hot's release ==> "Before It Was Hot's release" (conciseness)
- between September 24, 1999, and March 6, 2000 at Dub add a comma after "2000"
- on analogue tape, which ==> "on analog tape, which"
- music and themes
- merge the first paragraph and second paragraph (single-sentence paragraphs are generally unfavorable)
- release and reception
- droning, distorted guitars and organs" ==> "droning, distorted guitars[,] and organs"
That's all i got. Fine work on the article! 750h+ 08:32, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- @750h+: Thank you for the review! All comments implemented. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 17:39, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support. 750h+ 00:05, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): Ed [talk] [OMT] 06:10, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
Just before Christmas in 2016, dozens of people in the Russian city of Irkutsk woke up to discover that they could no longer see. Others never woke at all.
It quickly became clear that these people were suffering from methanol poisoning after drinking a contaminated batch of unregulated surrogate alcohol. In the end, 74 people died—a toll that the Associated Press called "unprecedented in its scale"—and the Russian government took a few actions to try to prevent it from happening again.
I wrote the original draft of this article in 2016 after I read this New York Times article. I successfully nominated it for ITN in the same month and GA in mid-2017. I'm looking forward to any comments you might share. Ed [talk] [OMT] 06:10, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments by Sodium
[edit]- Shouldn't the first section be named something like "Background"
- Done
- Nikishin,
thea vodka historian -- Also define a "vodka historian", that's not a phrase most people associate with a profession"The" is meant to refer to the earlier mention of Nikishin. I adopted that phrasing from news articles because I liked how it split the difference between repeating full names and professions vs. hoping people remembered the first reference.Would refactoring "vodka historian" as "historian of vodka" make things more clear?- I ended up cutting one of the two quotes after I wrote the answer above, so I struck that part. Ed [talk] [OMT] 02:43, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not really sure about the fact that the concept of methanol poisoning is defined in the article after two or three references to methanol poisoning itself.
- I struggled with this one. I definitely see where you're coming from, but the background section is discussing the issues related to alcoholism and surrogate alcohols in Russia—not necessarily methanol poisoning. I did remove one sentence that improperly conflated the two, and I'm open to removing the rest of the info given about alcohol poisoning. That's different from methanol poisoning and may be confusing to readers in this context.
- The two alcohols are similar in many respects and cannot readily be distinguished, and their contents differed from the labels on the bottles, which indicated that they contained ethanol. An investigation later revealed that the methanol was usually used in the local production of windshield washer fluid, known locally as antifreeze. I'm confused here, were the bottles mislabelled or was it that windshield washer fluid was used because it was cheaper (as you mention in paragraphs before) ?
- Both. The bad batch was placed into the standard bath oil bottles, which were labeled as containing ethanol.
- Who conducted said investigation ?
- Fixed. It was the government.
- A picture of ethanol v/s methanol bottles would drive the point home for the first paragraph of the "Events" section
If I'm understanding this ask correctly, we unfortunately don't have freely licensed photos of these bottles. That's why I used {{external media}} near the top. The ethanol and methanol bottles were the same per above.Never mind. I assume you mean a photo of ethanol vs. methanol to drive home how similar they are. There isn't anything on Commons in one photo, but I've reached out to WP:CHEMISTRY.- A member there has offered to get a picture of the two substances side-by-side. Thanks for the idea, Sohom Datta! Ed [talk] [OMT] 23:20, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- drinking too much non-fraudulent ethanol-based bath oil Whether or not this incident was caused by actual fraud is explicitly never addressed in the article, I would advise you to figure that out and tweak the wording of this sentence or add more context accordingly.
- Fixed. This was a really good flag, and I can't believe I didn't see this myself!
- Of the remainder, a problem in attempting to treat them was that fomepizole, a methanol antidote, is not certified for use in Russia and is therefore not available in the country's hospitals. This sentence feels stilted
- Fixed, I hope.
Overall,the victims included teachers, nurses, and drivers; The New York Times described the majority as holding "steady if low-paying jobs".- Fixed.
- What is "counterfeit oil" in About 500 liters (130 U.S. gal) of remaining counterfeit oil were seized from the underground facility where it had been produced, does it refer to the methanol laced oil or the bath oil which turned into vodka in general ?
- The former. I hope this is now fixed; I discovered that I had read the reference wrong and that the 500 liters were seized from local shops in addition to authorities discovering the underground facility.
- Hello Sohom Datta and thanks so much for giving this a read. I've left comments inline above. Ed [talk] [OMT] 14:53, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
Image review from Nikkimaria
[edit]- Suggest scaling up the map. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:50, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Done and thanks, Nikkimaria. I'd thought I'd done so before but typo'd the |upright=. I also updated the map to one from the same place but better sourcing. It's explicitly CC BY 4.0. Ed [talk] [OMT] 23:20, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- FYI Nikkimaria, I've added a new image courtesy of DMacks over at WP:CHEM. It was taken by DMacks, so I don't expect it to cause a copyright issue. Ed [talk] [OMT] 02:20, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments from Graeme Bartlett
[edit]- Instead of "the Associated Press news agency" statement, we should have our own Wikipedia statement on whether this was the biggest mass poisoning in (Russia). THough it could be used as a reference.
I have not seen a reference that compares mass poisonings in Russia, unfortunately, and for methanol specifically List of methanol poisoning incidents#Russia only shows several other incidents from 2021 and 2023. The full quote is: "Poisonings caused by cheap surrogate alcohol are a regular occurrence, but the Irkutsk case was unprecedented in its scale." I've expanded the lead and better clarified what the quote is referring to?- Never mind. Thanks to the Russian Wikipedia, I've now added that this was the worst mass poisoning by surrogate alcohol in Russia's post-Soviet history. Ed [talk] [OMT] 06:10, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- We could explain that "Боярышник" means hawthorn.
- Done.
- A quote from Alexander Nikishin should probably be reworded in Wikipedia voice.
- Done.
- 4 deaths → four deaths MOS:NUM
- Done.
- Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:03, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Graeme Bartlett: Thank you—I really appreciate the thorough review and time you spent reading the article. I've responded inline above. I also would love to confirm with you that this newly added/tweaked sentence is accurate: "The human body breaks down methanol into formaldehyde and formic acid, both of which act as nerve toxins and damage the optic nerve." 'Nerve toxins' is the phrase used by DW, but I wanted to make sure it wasn't being used improperly. Ed [talk] [OMT] 23:20, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments from Penitentes
[edit]- The number of affected people could go in the lead.
- Done.
According to early reports on 19 December, a total of 57 people were hospitalized
- Is this the earliest known point at which people fell ill? It's not entirely clear over what kind of time span the poisonings unfolded.- Thanks for pushing me on this. Previously, all the sources I'd seen didn't give an exact date... or so I thought, as this journal article did give a start date. I've added it.
In the immediate aftermath of the poisoning, a state of emergency was declared.
- Who declared the state of emergency? Was it municipal authorities, the Siberian regional government, or a higher power? That would eliminate the passive voice, too. I would also include the date.- It was the mayor of Irkutsk! Good catch.
- The article defines Rospotrebnadzor as the federal consumer rights protection agency in both the Background section and the Aftermath section. The latter definition can probably be removed!
I'm split on this. There's a big gap between mention #1 and #2, and I don't like to assume that readers go through articles in order from top to bottom.- Never mind that last. Per the comments below, I removed the first mention of Rospotrebnadzor. Ed [talk] [OMT] 02:18, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
Overall, a solid article! — Penitentes (talk) 19:53, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Penitentes: Thanks so much for the review! I'm glad you enjoyed the article. I've responded to your comments inline. Ed [talk] [OMT] 23:20, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments from BorgQueen
[edit]It was the worst mass poisoning by surrogate alcohol in Russia's post-Soviet history,
– By worst, don't you mean deadliest? BorgQueen (talk) 15:55, 16 August 2024 (UTC)- Yup. And so that's now changed. Thanks, BorgQueen. Ed [talk] [OMT] 04:54, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Support from UC
[edit]An interesting story -- maybe short of a full review, but some things that stuck out to me as I read:
- Make sure that Russian and transliterated text are in the appropriate templates, for the benefit of screen readers.
- Done.
- Russia's government agency devoted to consumer protection, Rospotrebnadzor, recorded about 36,000 such poisonings in the first nine months of 2016, resulting in over 9,000 deaths.: we need to put this figure in context -- how did that compare with previous figures? How much confidence do we have that Putin's government would report this accurately?
- I included this as a way of showing the scale of the problem, and not to prove the preceding statement around increasing deaths over time. I'm open to removing it. To your second question, in several areas of the article I've tried to be very specific when the information's source is either the state or state-owned media.
- Even just to show the scale, it needs some kind of context -- it's obviously a big number, and a single death is a tragedy, but 9,000 deaths a year in Wales would be a different proposition to 9,000 deaths in China. I think showing change over time would be one good way to do this: otherwise, was this the largest in the world? UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:34, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- I decided to remove this in place of a note around alcohol poisonings being generally high in Russia prior to the increase. I went looking for additional sources to contexualize it, but then I found that the WHO said in 2018 that "The measurement of alcohol poisoning deaths may be affected by the miscoding of alcohol poisonings as cardiovascular diseases [...] however, the miscoding of alcohol poisonings appears to be limited to the former Soviet Union". So the direct-from-government stats I was quoting are likely to be quite wrong anyway. (The new addition cites the study the WHO cited.) Ed [talk] [OMT] 02:18, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Even just to show the scale, it needs some kind of context -- it's obviously a big number, and a single death is a tragedy, but 9,000 deaths a year in Wales would be a different proposition to 9,000 deaths in China. I think showing change over time would be one good way to do this: otherwise, was this the largest in the world? UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:34, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- I included this as a way of showing the scale of the problem, and not to prove the preceding statement around increasing deaths over time. I'm open to removing it. To your second question, in several areas of the article I've tried to be very specific when the information's source is either the state or state-owned media.
- bath oil named boyaryshnik or Боярышник, after its hawthorn scent: I think we need to spell out that Боярышник is the Russian for 'hawthorn'.
- I believe this is fixed. I was trying to avoid repeating "hawthorn", but you were right to question the phrasing and I'm struggling to find a better solution.
- Everybody knew that it was not bath oil", one individual later told the US newspaper The New York Times. "That label was just meant to fend off the inspectors": who is this individual? What gives them the authority to make such a sweeping pronouncement?
- The quote is from a local that does not have any authority on their own, so I omitted the name. I decided to include it in relying on the editorial judgement of Neil MacFarquhar, who was The New York Times' Moscow bureau chief at the time and was part of a team that won a Pulitzer in 2017 for reports about Russia. I don't believe MacFarquhar would have included the quote if it wasn't effectively true.
- I'm not happy here, I'm afraid. Journalists include sometimes quotations because they're authoritative, sure, but they also include them to add flavour, to be seen to be presenting the views of local people, or even to distance themselves from the views put forward -- it may be significant, for example, that MacFarquhar chose not to write, in his own voice, "everyone in Russia knows that the bath oil is meant to be drunk". However, I imagine it would be fairly trivial to find another source which does say that people were selling drinking alcohol as other plausibly-deniable products in Russia at this time, and that this was widely known? UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:34, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- MacFarquhar did write that in his own voice. :-p Specifically, he said: "[...] it was common knowledge that bootleggers produced the rotgut specifically as poor man's vodka". I've removed the quote and left the citation intact, as the other part of the article's preceding sentence is covered by another part of the NYT piece: "They felt they were being scapegoated for the illicit vodka trade, which the police had long tolerated, if not controlled". Ed [talk] [OMT] 02:18, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not happy here, I'm afraid. Journalists include sometimes quotations because they're authoritative, sure, but they also include them to add flavour, to be seen to be presenting the views of local people, or even to distance themselves from the views put forward -- it may be significant, for example, that MacFarquhar chose not to write, in his own voice, "everyone in Russia knows that the bath oil is meant to be drunk". However, I imagine it would be fairly trivial to find another source which does say that people were selling drinking alcohol as other plausibly-deniable products in Russia at this time, and that this was widely known? UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:34, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- The quote is from a local that does not have any authority on their own, so I omitted the name. I decided to include it in relying on the editorial judgement of Neil MacFarquhar, who was The New York Times' Moscow bureau chief at the time and was part of a team that won a Pulitzer in 2017 for reports about Russia. I don't believe MacFarquhar would have included the quote if it wasn't effectively true.
- Footnotes need citations.
- I can easily find some, but my suspicion is that simple chemical formulas and common names are WP:SKYISBLUE territory.
- Maybe, but WP:SKYBLUE is an essay, and personally I'm much more of a fan of WP:DOCITEBLUE -- if it's really so obvious, it should be easy enough to find somewhere in print. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:34, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- I can easily find some, but my suspicion is that simple chemical formulas and common names are WP:SKYISBLUE territory.
- As days went by, subsequent reports increased the number of impacted people: I notice that each of these reports comes from a different source, so it's not easy to differentiate change over time versus different sources/counting methods/reliability/whatever of different news organisations.
- I've rewritten this paragraph to use only sources that explicitly cited the local health ministry in their articles. I feel pretty confident that's the source the previous sources were using too, as none of them said they were counting in other ways, but WP:V is better satisfied in the new formulation. Thanks for calling this out!
- We have a couple of figures given in roubles: it would help to give a sense to non-Russian readers of how much money these represent.
- Done. {{To USD}} is a great template, or I've filled in conversions directly from the sources. If you were actually hoping to see inflation-adjusted figures, I don't think {{inflation}} can handle cross-currency conversions. I might be able to use something like Measuring Worth with citations?
- Lots here relies on news sources from inside the news cycle, which have their concerns. Can we pull some of that information from more retrospective studies instead?
- Solid portions rely on things published outside the news cycle. The two most significant sources used in the article are the retrospective New York Times MacFarquhar piece (15 calls) and an academic piece to give this significant attention (9 calls, +1 more with info from its appendix; I could add more citations to a table that provides a bullet list of Russian government actions during/after the poisoning, but in most cases the news articles provided more detail.). I'd also call out the Deutsche Welle article, which was published a week after the poisonings began and deliberately takes a step back to give a wide view of the incident.
- Overall, I would argue that the in-cycle news sources are appropriately used. Many are in the incident section, as you might expect, and in the aftermath section for things like legal cases and politician pronouncements. Others have been mined for the background info they provided, thereby acting as a secondary source in that context. I'd also note that I've dropped sources that made errors while trying to catch the cycle (NPR and the now-defunct Siberian Times). That said, I've gone through to trim unnecessary references, most of which were news cycle-specific.
- An update here a day later: I did additional digging for retrospective resources and came across a Siberian Medical Journal article in the references of another article. That hadn't shown up in my prior searching, but I've now integrated it into the article. Of note, it gives two numbers for the death toll, so I've explained the source discrepancy in a new footnote. I've also added two academic articles from 2018. Ed [talk] [OMT] 03:52, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- What is the Lachenmeier article doing in Further Reading? What does it add that hasn't been incorporated into the article?
- I don't seem to have access to this article any more. My memory is that while it was a research synthesis follow-up on unrecorded alcohol use in Russia by the same authors as the main academic source on this poisoning, it did not have any info that I wanted to add to the article proper. I don't mind removing it if you feel strongly.
- No, I think that's a very good use of Further Reading -- an article which isn't mission-critical, but which would add value if a future editor can access it and incorporate it. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:34, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't seem to have access to this article any more. My memory is that while it was a research synthesis follow-up on unrecorded alcohol use in Russia by the same authors as the main academic source on this poisoning, it did not have any info that I wanted to add to the article proper. I don't mind removing it if you feel strongly.
- Similarly, why the link to Khodorkovsky's blog?
- My thinking was it met WP:ELMAYBE #4. It's not a reliable source, but a then-prominent opposition politician's voice felt worthy of inclusion somewhere. That said, I have even less attachment to this link than the further reading one, so I'm happy to remove it if you feel strongly.
- We might do well to incorporate it into the text -- to say "Khodorkovsky, a prominent opposition politician, said...", and link it as a source. Even better if someone else has got there first and reported the remarks at second hand, so we can then cite it to that reliable source and say "K. made his remarks on his blog, at [this place]" UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:34, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- Y'know, the note around secondary sourcing got me thinking. As far as I can tell, Khodorkovsky's article had effectively no impact. I searched and found exactly one public post on Facebook and zero on the website formerly known as Twitter. There may have been mentions in Russian opposition reporting or social media that I can't easily search for without knowing the language, but without evidence of that I removed the link. Ed [talk] [OMT] 02:18, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- We might do well to incorporate it into the text -- to say "Khodorkovsky, a prominent opposition politician, said...", and link it as a source. Even better if someone else has got there first and reported the remarks at second hand, so we can then cite it to that reliable source and say "K. made his remarks on his blog, at [this place]" UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:34, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- My thinking was it met WP:ELMAYBE #4. It's not a reliable source, but a then-prominent opposition politician's voice felt worthy of inclusion somewhere. That said, I have even less attachment to this link than the further reading one, so I'm happy to remove it if you feel strongly.
UndercoverClassicist T·C 19:00, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, UndercoverClassicist! You said that this wasn't a full review, but you nevertheless hit on some great points that I'm grateful for. You can find inline replies above. Ed [talk] [OMT] 07:21, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks again, UndercoverClassicist. I dropped more replies above. Ed [talk] [OMT] 02:18, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nice one -- a small issue, but the map in the infobox currently looks very odd indeed with the frame-within-a-frame, at least on my screen. I did have a go at fixing, but no success. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:13, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- @UndercoverClassicist: I'd noticed that too and couldn't address it. Thankfully, it appears to only be a desktop issue—I'm not seeing it on the mobile version or the Android app. Even on desktop, though, I think it still looks better and gives better context (through interactivity) than a location map. I'll ask Module talk:Mapframe and see if there's a solution we're missing. Ed [talk] [OMT] 18:54, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- I can't claim to actually understand all the inscrutable maplink attributes, but I cargo-culted what has worked for me in the past and that seems to have fixed it. RoySmith (talk) 21:54, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you very much, RoySmith! I can't believe I missed the
|plain=
parameter that is almost at the top of Template:Maplink#Usage... sigh. Ed [talk] [OMT] 19:26, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you very much, RoySmith! I can't believe I missed the
- I can't claim to actually understand all the inscrutable maplink attributes, but I cargo-culted what has worked for me in the past and that seems to have fixed it. RoySmith (talk) 21:54, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- @UndercoverClassicist: I'd noticed that too and couldn't address it. Thankfully, it appears to only be a desktop issue—I'm not seeing it on the mobile version or the Android app. Even on desktop, though, I think it still looks better and gives better context (through interactivity) than a location map. I'll ask Module talk:Mapframe and see if there's a solution we're missing. Ed [talk] [OMT] 18:54, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think we're almost there, but looking at the "incident" section, I see a lot of choppy, short paragraphs and a couple of prose infelicities (repetition of death toll, MOS:CLICHE of pegged the number of deaths at, a break of MOS:LQ with the AP quotation). Could you give that section a look with this in mind?
- UndercoverClassicist, I've made the changes you requested and did some copyediting for flow. [3] Ed [talk] [OMT] 01:22, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- A smaller point, but does uncovered an underground facility mean "beneath the earth" as well as "illicit and hidden"? If so, no problem; if not, suggest another word.
- Ah, interesting thought. The AP called it an "underground facility", and I echoed that language. I haven't seen other sources give detail on it. I tweaked the sentence clause to say "uncovered a bath oil production facility". Ed [talk] [OMT] 01:22, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Another small one, sorry -- to keep drinkable medicinal tinctures, antiseptics, and Eau de Cologne on retail shelves: MOS:CLICHE again -- they wanted to keep them available for sale, not literally on shelves (in fact, they were meant to move off the shelves into people's homes). UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:49, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- @UndercoverClassicist: I've reworded that sentence! Ed [talk] [OMT] 15:48, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments from RoySmith
[edit]Just a few things I see quickly. I may or may not come back for a full review.
Paychecks totaling around 15,000 rubles (about US$246 in 2016) were common
is that per week?- The source doesn't specify. Indulging in a little OR, Russian law specifies that you have to be paid at least every two weeks, and this old article revision at List of Russian federal subjects by average wage says that the average monthly wage in the region was $652 as of 2020. So I'm thinking it's biweekly, but I don't think I can add that.
Russia remained as one of the highest consumers per capita in the world
that should say "highest consumers of alcohol ...". Also that's immediately followed by "an average yearly consumption of 11.7 liters". The first sentence is talking about the country, the next sentence switches to per-person, so you should say that.- Fixed.
even amidst the declining economic situation
I'm not sure "even" adds anything.- Fixed.
Experts estimated ... Other experts estimated
we've got a lot of anonymous experts. Would it be possible to specify who, specifically, is doing the estimating?- The New York Times doesn't attribute their expert figure, while RBC attributes Federal Service for Alcohol Market Regulation numbers on surrogate alcohols consumed, then compares them to Federal State Statistics Service (Russia) on overall alcohol retail sales. For the second sentence, The Long Hangover doesn't attribute their expert, and The Moscow Times attributes "Vadim Drobiz, the head of the Center for Federal and Regional Alcohol Market Studies, an independent think tank." That's why I left it all generalized, but I'm open to reworking these sentences to get more specific if you'd like.
- I'd move File:Total alcohol consumption per capita - litres of pure alcohol - 2015.png down so it lines up with the start of the paragraph
At the same time, Russia remained ...
- Done.
caused by a fraudulently produced batch
fraudulently produced or fraudulently lableled?- Both, really. I've removed "produced".
nerve toxins
-> neurotoxins?- The source says "nerve toxins", and I've left a question for Graham above on whether that's an appropriate phrase to use.
and 500 liters (130 U.S. gal) of remaining fraudulent bath oil from around 100 retailers in the Irkutsk area
there's no verb here.- Ah! Whoops. Thanks and fixed.
Twenty-three people involved in the production of the oil ... including ... police officers, and a senior regional government official
this makes it sound like the police officers and the government official were involved in the production. Or maybe that was indeed the case?- Not the case. I've copyedited the sentence.
- Thanks for your comments, RoySmith! I've left inline replies above and hope you decide to come back to review the whole thing. Ed [talk] [OMT] 19:26, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): Ippantekina (talk) 05:17, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
This article is about a little-known song by Taylor Swift, who is an indie artist. Any and all comments would be much appreciated :) Ippantekina (talk) 05:17, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- (i wouldn't say "little-known", it has 1.6 billion views on YouTube, but that's irrelevant) 750h+ 13:22, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Aoba47
[edit]- The following sentence is not grammatically correct: (A pop song with hip hop beats and keyboards, the lyrics are about betrayal by a close friend.) It is describing the lyrics as "a pop song ..." and not the song itself so it would need to be revised.
- Since Taylor Swift and Kendrick Lamar are identified with their nationalities, shouldn't the same be done for Max Martin and Shellback (i.e. saying "the Swedish producers" as opposed to just "the producers"). It would be best to be consistent.
- Apologies in advance if I am just overlooking this, but I was curious about this part, (demonstrated a new aspect of Swift's artistry), and I could not really locate it in the "Critical reception" section. Could you clarify where this is supported? I see positive reviews describing "Bad Blood" as a 1989 highlight, but I do not see any larger consensus to support the "new aspect" discussed in the lead.
- I am uncertain about the following in the lead, (featured among the best songs of 2015 on lists by NME and PopMatters). Are these two specific lists notable enough to highlight in the lead?
- I think the lists provide a good counterpart to the fact that "Bad Blood" is often considered the worst song from 1989. Both NME and PopMatters are reliable sources as well. Ippantekina (talk) 08:07, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- For this part, (consisting of many singers, actresses, and fashion models), I would cut "many" as it comes across more as a filler word. I can understand that it is likely there to convey just how many people are crammed into the video, but I think that readers can understand that without the "some".
- Shouldn't the Ryan Adams cover be mentioned in the lead as it does have its own section?
- Apologies for not catching this in previous FACs, but I have a comment about this part, (Taylor Swift had identified as a country musician). The source describes Swift as "the country/pop star", but I do not see where it says that Swift herself identified as a country singer until releasing Red. I think a stronger source will be needed to support this information unless I am overlooking something in the current citation.
- Why is Ilya used for the lead and infobox but Ilya Salmanzadeh used in the article?
- It may be beneficial to cut back on some of the quotes in the "Critical reception" section. The information itself is very good, but certain parts feel quite quote-heavy. That being said, I could just be over-thinking this so feel free to disagree with me.
- I paraphrased here and there - hope it looks OK now. Ippantekina (talk) 08:07, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I am a bit confused by the WP:FUR for File:Bad blood taylor video.png. The rationale points out that it is "a single look in a very fashion-oriented video", but is fashion really one of the main reason for its inclusion? While looking at the caption and the section, I'd think the screenshot is more so about the "squad" and action movie vibes.
- For this part, (consisting of female singers and fashion models), shouldn't it include "actresses" to both match the lead and better represent the video (as people like Ellen Pompeo are neither a singer nor a model).
- I remember that the video for "Bitch I'm Madonna" received a lot of comparisons to the one for "Bad Blood". I think that information would be beneficial here as it would show the impact that this particular video had.
- There have been other parody versions of this song (i.e." Good Blood", a tampon-related one, one from the show Great News, and another about motherhood). It is probably worth looking into this further to make sure it is comprehensive.
- For this part, (and that he wanted to sing the songs from his perspective), I would avoid sing / songs in the same sentence.
- I am a bit uncertain about this sentence: (Swift expressed her attitude towards Lamar on social media and called the event "surreal and bewildering".) It seems a tad overly wordy and I am not sure about calling this an "event".
- The article says that Taylor's Version has an identical arrangement to the original and then goes on to discuss the differences so it seems a bit contradictory.
- This citation is missing the publication date: here.
- These citations are missing the author: here, here, here, and here
- This citation is no longer active: here
For clarity, I am working from this version of the article. I hope that this review is helpful. Once all of my comments are addressed, I will read through the article more thoroughly to make sure that I have not missed anything. Best of luck with this FAC, and I hope that you are doing well. Aoba47 (talk) 22:08, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Aoba47: thanks very much for your comments. I likewise hope that you are doing well :) Let me get back to you asap. Ippantekina (talk) 09:19, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the kind words. Take as much time as you need. Aoba47 (talk) 15:33, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
Placeholder
[edit]I will take a look at this one but it's probably best if I wait till all of Aoba's comments are addressed so that I don't duplicate things they said..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:17, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 20:18, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
John Silva Meehan was the fourth Librarian of Congress, serving for the three decades prior to the Civil War. The library was a pretty low-key institution at this time; only under Librarian Spofford did it truly become a "national library", and Meehan has received a fair bit of criticism for not getting the ball rolling on this beforehand. Prior to his librarian service, he had a brief and ultimately unsuccessful career as a partisan newspaper editor. I hope this is an enjoyable read to you all! Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 20:18, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
HF - support
[edit]I'll review this over the coming week. Hog Farm Talk 20:39, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- "he moved to Burlington, New Jersey to work as a printer " - while I disagree with it strongly, MOS:GEOCOMMA is part of the manual of style, so there should be a comma after New Jersey
- Oops, fixed. - G
- "Watterston was later described as having been a "librarian of one side of the aisle"" - by whom? The extent to which this quote can be taken at face value depends on if this is the conclusion of a modern historian, or if this is another Duff Green commentary
- Added attribution. - G
- "wished to hire an assistant editor at a significant lower rate than what he had agreed for Meehan" - while yes, this is true, I would argue that the use of "significant" here consitutes a form of original research, as we're only given the rates of $1,200 and $800.
- Removed the word significant.
- Our article on the City of Washington Gazette attributes the renaming to the United States' Telegraph to Meehan, but this renaming is never directly addressed in this article - can a simple statement that Meehan changed the name be sourced?
- Done. - G
- Is the correct spelling "Wharton" or "Warton" for his son's middle name? It looks like Nappo uses "Warton", but McDonough uses "Wharton"
- I've found a contemporary source that uses Wharton, so switching to that.
- McDonough states on page 12 that Meehan had a "reputation as a careful and precise businessman" and that he was thus asked to be the bookkeeper for several unrelated thimgs - is this worth mentioning alongside the Johnston quote?
- Ooh, great idea! Since this was describing his contemporary reputation, I incorporated it into a paragraph further up into the article. - G
That's it for the first read-through. Hog Farm Talk 22:13, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Hog Farm: Okay! I think that's about everything. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 01:00, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Image review
- File:Silva_meehan.jpg: when and where was this first published? Ditto File:James_Alfred_Pearce,_standing.jpg, File:Library_of_Congress_1853_(cropped).jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:23, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Silva_meehan.jpg - 1904, added.
- Cannot find any evidence of the latter two being published. Corrected licensing. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 01:21, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
NØ
[edit]Not a subject matter expert so I am just focusing on prose.
- "After the firm moved to Washington, D.C., in early 1822, Meehan begun editing and publishing the Baptist weekly newspaper The Columbian Star." - Should this not be "began" instead?
- Good catch, fixed. - G
- "He attended school in New York, and later entered work as a printer." - There's a WP:CINS issue here which could be fixed by removing the comma.
- Fixed. - G
- Would a link to Baptists somewhere be overlinking?
- Found a spot! - G
- "He would leave the paper himself six months later, seeking to separate the Star from his entry into political writing." - nitpicky on my part but is this a better way to put it?: "Six months later, he would leave the paper himself, seeking to separate the Star from his entry into political writing."
- I think so, fixed. - G
- "Meehan diligently produced various "want lists" based on earlier catalogs." - It might be a good idea to have a reference directly present at the end of this sentence since there's a quote.
- Added. - G
- There are no major problems with the article from the areas that I analyzed it. Along with the prose, I also checked the alt texts and they look good and succinct. Good work!--NØ 05:35, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- @MaranoFan: Thank you very much! Made fixes as requested. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 05:46, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks. I will go through it again later.--NØ 05:52, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments from Steelkamp
[edit]I'll have a look at this too. If you would like to do a review, I've also got an article at FAC that needs reviews. These are my initial comments:
So there are several mentions of "Librarian of Congress" that do not conform with MOS:JOBTITLES. Instances of this I could find are:"the fourth Librarian of Congress" -> "the fourth librarian of Congress"."the Librarian of Congress since 1815" -> "the librarian of Congress since 1815"."Senator James Pearce served as Meehan's partner and ally for much of his tenure as Librarian." -> "Senator James Pearce served as Meehan's partner and ally for much of his tenure as librarian.""from the Joint Committee to the Librarian of Congress" -> "from the Joint Committee to the librarian of Congress""Rumors that the newly-elected Franklin Pierce had appointed a new Librarian of Congress troubled Meehan." -> "Rumors that the newly-elected Franklin Pierce had appointed a new librarian of Congress troubled Meehan.""asking that Meehan be allowed to continue his role as librarian" -> "asking that Meehan be allowed to continue his role as Librarian""Meehan additionally served as the Secretary of the Board of Trustees of the Baptist Columbian College." -> "Meehan additionally served as the secretary of the board of trustees of the Baptist Columbian College."- Done. - G
Names with initials should have non-breaking spaces between the initials as per MOS:INITIALS. E.g. "C. H. Wharton Meehan" should be "C. H. Wharton Meehan", "E. B. Stelle" should be "E. B. Stelle", and "G. P. A. Healy" should be "G. P. A. Healy" instead (look at the wikitext).- Fixed. - G
"remained unimplemented" -> "were not implemented".- Fixed. - G
Does Librarian of Congress need to be linked twice in the lead?- Fixed. - G
There is a citation error with one of the journals.- Fixed. - G
There is an inconsistency between "U.S. Navy Agent" and "US" in the infobox.- Fixed. - G
Baptist can be linked in the lead.- Done. - G
"In January 1815, he returned to New York" -> "In January 1815, Meehan returned to New York".- Fixed. - G
"In Philadelphia, he partnered" -> "In Philadelphia, Meehan partnered"- Fixed. - G
"and the Luminary was shifted to a monthly publication." What was it before that?- Five times a year; added. - G
"The two also served as the chief editors" -> "The two served as the chief editors".- Fixed. - G
"Rev. James D. Knowles." Does rev stand for reverend? If so, can it be written out in full: "Reverend James D. Knowles".- Done. -G
Steelkamp (talk) 11:05, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Steelkamp: Okay! I think that's all. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 15:04, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Washington D.C." -> "Washington, D.C."
- "using notes endorsed by John Peter Van Ness". Is this referring to banknotes? And what does "endorsed" mean exactly?
- "the most sacred principles of the Constitution". Maybe link Constitution of the United States.
- "1824 presidential election". Maybe link 1824 United States presidential election.
- In what way did the election of Adams and the appointment of Clay violate the most sacred principles of the Constitution?
- Does "Anti-Jacksonian" typically have a capital "A"? There are three instances of it with the "A" capitalised and one instance where it is not.
- "describing him as the "abused citizen"" -> "describing him as an "abused citizen""
- "above the political games and corruption that he attributed to the Adams administration." Who is doing the attributing? Meehan or Jackson?
- "Green wrote to Andrew Jackson in April 23, 1829" -> "Green wrote to Andrew Jackson on April 23, 1829".
- The Library of Congress is not linked in the body. Can a link to that page be fit in somewhere?
- "through multiple Whig presidencies". Can Whig Party (United States) be linked?
- "often not meeting or failing to achieve quorum." -> "often not meeting or failing to achieve a quorum."
- "Joint Committee was generally" -> "The Joint Committee was generally".
- "with specific funds funding the republication" -> "with specific funds for the republication".
- "seeking plant specimens to plant in their home gardens." -> "seeking plant specimens for their home gardens."
- I think the photo of Alexandre Vattemare should be moved down one paragraph so that it's directly next to the paragraph that he is mentioned in.
- A non-breaking space should be added to "8:00 am" and "11:00 am" as per MOS:TIME.
- "spring of 1853." This should be replaced with a month range or year quarter as per MOS:SEASON.
- Link Smithsonian upon its first mention instead.
- "still in affect" -> "still in effect".
- "Rumors that Franklin Pierce". Should be mentioned that Pierce was the president.
- 1860 United States presidential election is linked in the lead but not the body?
Those are all the comments I have. Overall, this is a well written and engaging article. Steelkamp (talk) 16:54, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Steelkamp: Thank you very much for the thorough review! I think I made all the new requested fixes. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 17:39, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Looks great! Support. Steelkamp (talk) 04:37, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments from Mike Christie
[edit]- Repetition of "served ... served ... service" in the first three sentences of the lead; suggested "worked" for the second one.
- "he continued to serve as Green's editor": do we know what this really means? If Green was in control after 1826, was Meehan working at Green's direction, or was he more of a managing editor, handling the administrative side of the business? As written it sounds like he was editing Green's work, which doesn't jibe with Green having taken over control.
- Four instances of "large" or "largely" in the second paragraph of the lead. Suggest "a purge of numerous incumbent officials" for the first one. "... purchasing large volumes of books ..." is confusing because "volume" also means a physical book, so perhaps "restocking it with substantial purchases of books".
- "although reforms such as an overhaul of the library's archaic catalogue system were not implemented": this makes it sound as if this reform was acknowledged as necessary at the time, but he failed to implement it. Is that the case? Or is it just that it was a later librarian who took this on? If so I'd suggest something like "although he left the library's archaic catalogue system unchanged". I see there's a mention of an attempt by Jewett and the Smithsonian to recatalogue the library that Meehan opposed; is this what is being referred to?
- "rarely shifted library policy": can we get a more specific indication of what historians think he should have done but didn't?
- "placing Meehan into editorship of the paper": simpler as "making Meehan the editor" or "leaving Meehan as editor".
- "seeking to separate the Star from his entry into political writing": I don't know what this means.
- The article says the Jackson campaign indirectly purchased the Gazette, but the next sentence hedges this by saying "the purchase was likely directed". Is it definite that the Jackson campaign made the purchase happen, or not?
- 'claiming Meehan held an "indiscriminate opposition"': suggest 'claiming Meehan's editorials [or "articles", or "opinions"] amounted to "indiscriminate opposition"'.
- "with pro-administration presses": I think this needs to be "with the pro-administration press".
- "Watterston sought to transform the Library of Congress into a national library, which Jacksonians feared would represent increased federal power." I don't understand this. I don't think I really know what is meant by "national library" beyond the obvious sense that it's a library established by a national law (in which sense the LoC already was a national library), and in what way can a library be seen as a dangerous element of federal power?
- "describing various maintenance taken": I don't think "maintenance" can take "various" as an adjective. Suggest "describing the maintenance needed" or "describing the various maintenance tasks needed".
- "Journalist Anne Royall rebuked his purchasing habits" and "Meehan rebuked criticism": the direct object of "rebuke" has to be a person; the criticism or habits have to be the indirect object.
-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:04, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:24, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
This article is about Hurricane Cindy, the first of several hurricanes to hit the United States during the 2005 Atlantic hurricane season. Cindy caused a fair amount of damage, including to the Atlanta Motor Speedway from a tornado, as well as the largest power outage for Entergy, the energy company responsible for Louisiana/Mississippi region. Of course, this whole area would be devastated by Hurricane Katrina just a month and a half later. As a weird bit of foreshadowing, there were five parishes in Louisiana that were declared disaster areas on August 23... the same day that Hurricane Katrina formed. Cindy wasn't all that bad compared to the later storms, but it was still significant enough to warrant having an article.
Thanks to edits from Zzzs (talk · contribs) has helped make sure that the article is well-polished, so I'd like to invite that user to co-nominate this article for FAC. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:24, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I just wanted to comment that I accept the invitation. ZZZ'S 23:17, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
Image review
- Suggest adding alt text
- Done --ZZZ'S 20:11, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- File:Hurricane_Cindy_2005-07-05.jpg: source link is dead.
- Repaired --ZZZ'S 20:01, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ditto File:Cindy_damage_at_Atlanta_Motor_Speedway.jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:06, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Repaired --ZZZ'S 22:04, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
Support from Dylan620
[edit]Great to see another tropical cyclone at FAC! I have an active FLC on similar subject matter, so it only feels appropriate to review this. Ping me if I haven't added anything to this space within the next week. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 18:01, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Some comments:
- and was significant enough in five Louisiana parishes to be declared a federal disaster area → "and was significant enough for five Louisiana parishes to be declared federal disaster areas" (the current wording implies that the overall damage itself was a federal disaster area, which I'm fairly certain isn't what was intended)
- You're right, got it. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:13, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- the storm organized into an eye feature → "the storm developed an eye feature" (the current wording implies that the storm became a giant eye, and the emergence of an eye is itself an indicator of increased organization)
- Fixed. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:13, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- The extratropical storm restrengthened slightly – Isn't "extratropical storm", at least in the context of post-transition former TCs, reserved for systems of an intensity equivalent to at least TS force? Since Cindy's winds in its extratropical stage never went any higher than 30 kts, I would suggest replacing "storm" with "low" or "cyclone".
- Yup, got it. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:13, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- In the second sentence of §Preparations, I would recommend adding "later" after "NHC", to clarify that the US warnings were not issued simultaneously with the Mexico warnings.
- I like that. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:13, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- In north Atlanta – My initial instinct was that "north" should be capitalized, but North Atlanta is a disambiguation page that provides a couple possibilities for what "North Atlanta" could be. Maybe either this should be clarified, or "north" rephrased as "northern"?
- I like "northern" ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:18, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- In Arlington in northern Virginia, floodwaters closed roads and businesses → "In northern Virginia, floodwaters closed roads and businesses in Arlington" (a blatant nitpick, but this reads more smoothly imo)
- Yea it works. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:18, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- In Pennsylvania, rains from the storm led to flash floods in Lebanon and Lancaster counties – I would swap out "led to" for something like "generated" or "produced", since the phrase "leading to" is used later in this same sentence.
- I like "generated" ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:18, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Also, the piped link for Lancaster County leads to the town article instead of the county article.
- Fixed. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:18, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- In Lebanon, the floods forced 22 homes to evacuate. – The town or the county?
- Clarified the county. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:18, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- the large tornado caused heavy damage – I would remove mention of the twister's size from this sentence, since it's already mentioned in the sentence immediately prior.
- Done. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:18, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- That's about it, I think. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 00:58, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks so much for the review Dylan620 (talk · contribs)! Lemme know what you think. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:18, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for addressing my comments so quickly Hurricanehink! I'm pleased with the changes and I'm happy to support now. This article is a great piece of work. Dylan620 (he/him • talk • edits) 02:37, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks so much for the review Dylan620 (talk · contribs)! Lemme know what you think. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:18, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
BP!
[edit]I kinda figured it out I'd review this since I possibly need more detailed review somehow for my FAC also.
Upon first glance. Note: I'm not expert this topic, including its source reliability.
- Be consistent to the referencing. For example there was citation like "[15][1]", it should be arranged properly.
- Done --ZZZ'S 22:41, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Pls bundle the referencing also if it was cited already 4 or more sources. It looks like you ended up ref bombing it.
- I bundled references together, which I think organizes the references a lot better. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:30, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
More to come 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)
*", injuring a man who was flung out of the building." I'm not quite sure about this, but could you perhaps reword this if you can?
- "As the remnants of the storm continued northeastward, it produced heavy rainfall, with statewide precipitation peaks of 5.52 in (140 mm) near Cleveland, South Carolina, 5.27 in (134 mm) at Tryon, North Carolina, and 5.18 in (132 mm) in Lenoir City, Tennessee." I feel like that is kinda too long for a single sentence.
- Split into two sentences --ZZZ'S 03:32, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Since I'm not native in english, I had to search what does "Panhandle" means.
- Linked to the appropriate geographical area --ZZZ'S 03:32, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- "One was rated an F1 which" I think its missing comma?
- Comma added --ZZZ'S 03:32, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Some websites/magazines aren't linked yet like USA Today and Fox News?
- It took a while, but it's done --ZZZ'S 08:18, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- I noticed that you already bundled the citations, but perhaps add the text? 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 02:28, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Could you clarify what you mean Boneless Pizza! (talk · contribs)? ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:10, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- For exanple this <ref name=comics>Sources that mentions Typhoon X: 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 22:16, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- What do you mean in context of Hurricane Cindy? Like in ref 22, saying "Sources for fatalities?" I'm not sure how that would work, since each URL needs its own reference (with different titles, dates, accessdates, whatnot). ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:47, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- hmmm I guess so. Anyway, I'll Support this nomination since the article is written very well. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 00:00, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- Could you clarify what you mean Boneless Pizza! (talk · contribs)? ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:10, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments from wtfiv
[edit]Meteorological History
[edit]I very much enjoyed reading this article, and appreciated the opportunity to look over some of the sources too. My comments are mainly minor stylistic ones.
- Paragraph 1
- First sentence starts with plural "origins" but references the singular "tropical wave". Should it be origin, or are you pointing toward subcomponents within the "tropical wave"?
- Jamaica, which Consider using a gerund, "becoming more" without the "which", as the "which" falsely looks like a descriptor of Jamaica.
- Reworded. --ZZZ'S 22:24, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Paragraph 3
- NHC assessed, assessed looks like a verb at first, but "moved" is the verb. If NHC accessed is meant to be an adjective, it might need a hyphen. But is NHC assessed needed here? If it's a verb, it doesn't make sense in the context of "moved", which is an empirical action. If an adjective, the NHC is already implicated in the assessment. Or does this sentence mean something like, "As Cindy moved ashore the NHC assessed it as..., but the agency upgraded..."?
- I believe assessed is related to the intensity of the tropical cyclone. I tried to rephrase it to make it clearer. Let me know what you think. --ZZZ'S 03:13, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- (minor suggestion) Consider changing ...depression, and Cindy merged... "depression and merged..." as Cindy is already the topic from the previous sentence.
- Done. --ZZZ'S 22:42, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Preparations
[edit]- (minor suggestion) Consider moving the clause Offshore in the open Gulf of Mexico to follow "six oil rigs", as it is more a description of the rigs than the oil companies, which the clause is currently adjacent to.
- Moved to the end of the sentence instead. Will that be alright? --ZZZ'S 22:52, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Impact
[edit]- Paragraph 1
- The sentence starting The energy company is a little unclear. It says "largest ever", but then appears to negate this when discussing Katrina.
- Clarified. --ZZZ'S 03:08, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Consider adding "to date" after power outage. Perhaps end clause with a period, and begin a new sentence. Then the new sentence could focus on the previous high-outage hurricane, Georges, and the one to come, Katrina.
- Done. --ZZZ'S 03:19, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Paragraph 2
- as strong winds caused roofing damage, consider replacing "as" with "and" or "while": (Though context quickly clarifies, in my first pass, "as" initially read like it was functioning in its explanatory role as a synonym of "because")
- Replaced with "and." --ZZZ'S 03:08, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm unclear on a point made here. Paragraph 1 made it sounds like George was second-place to Cindy. But this paragraph states that the second-most outage causing Hurricane was Betsy. Could this be clarified?
- The second-most outage was about the power company's history, which includes more than just Louisiana. That's why it was the state's largest blackout since Betsy, even further back than Georges in 1998, which makes sense since Georges didn't directly strike Louisiana. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:37, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Last sentences on declaration of emergency and Katrina
- (minor suggestion) The last two sentences- coincidence of Bush's declaration of state of emergency and the emergence of Katrina is fascinating, but the way it is written, it almost seems to imply that there may be a connection between the declaration and the development. Is there a way to soften this? Maybe something like rewording the last sentence to reading "During this time, another tropical depression was developing that would later become..."
- Reworded it differently. What do you think? --ZZZ'S 03:19, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Do these sentences fit here? I can see the logic. It emphasizes the extent of the damage to the five parishes. The narrative is taking place in July, then jumps to late August. Is there a place near the end where the aftermath can be discussed?
- Moved. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:37, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- OK, I split off the aftermath. I agree, that works well for flow purposes. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:37, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- If this is moved, the mention of Katrina in Paragraph 1 as the larger cause of outages could be put in the same paragraph as the mention of Katrina here. Moving this later may help readers get a better context of how Cindy relates to Katrina. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:37, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Paragraph 3
- Last sentence is related to previous point. Discussion of Dennis seems out of the timeline. It is a bit more confusing because the previous paragraph discusses Katrina, but now it sounds like Dennis will be intervening before Katrina. Can this possibly be clarified? (Again, maybe collecting aftermath issues into paragraphs near the end.)
- Moved and created aftermath section. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:37, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Paragraph 4- No suggestions
Tornado outbreak
[edit]- Paragraph 1- No suggestions
- Paragraph 2
- is the "already" in already measuring needed?
- No. Removed. --ZZZ'S 22:49, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Paragraph 3-
- The use of Fuji nomenclature is a bit unclear. In paragraph 2, it is defined adjectivally, as a measure of tornado intensity, but here it is used as a noun. This can make Paragraph 3 a bit confusing for a reader, requiring a double take to find what F0 means in the previous paragraph. Here's two possible suggestions:
- Consider making all subsequent mentions of the Fujita number consistently adjectival. (e.g., F0 tornado, "F2 tornado") This would possibly be simpler. For example, paragraph 4 uses the Fuji number consistently as an adjective, which makes it clear.
- Alternatively, Start off by making F2 on the front side of the first description, saying that the tornado was an F2 on the Fujita scale and define it. That way, readers are ready for tornados to be called by their Fujita number alone.
- Paragraphs 4, 5 and 6-No suggestions, but comment: The use of Fuji numbers are clear in these, as they are used either as adjectives or as explicit descriptions of tornados or events.
- Good point. I changed it so it's always a descriptor, and not used as a noun. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:57, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- General comment: My own feeling is that it would be good to see the aftermath items, such as following storms and Cindy's place in them near the end, after the main narrative has been told. This is not critical, but would clear up the timeline slightly and clarify the various relations between Cindy, Dennis, and Katrina. Wtfiv (talk) 22:01, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- There wasn't much aftermath for Cindy specifically. It was more of a prologue to Dennis and Katrina, and the longest lasting aspect of the storm was the tornado damage to the Speedway. I took that note and added the mentioning of Denis and Katrina earlier in the narrative, saying that Cindy was the first of six storms in 2005 to produce hurricane force winds in the US. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:55, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sounds good. I'll take another overall look when you are ready and all the comments have been addressed. Please ping me when you're done. I'll try to check in now and then, but I don't have this on my watchlist. Wtfiv (talk) 21:03, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Eh, after reading some of the earlier comments about the timeline, I agree, an aftermath section would be useful, and there is enough to put there. Please let me know what you think, Wtfiv (talk · contribs). Thanks again for the review! ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:38, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think you could've definitely pulled it off if you didn't put an aftermath in, but I also think an aftermath would be even stronger. Cindy sounds like the prelude to a season of storms culminating in Katrina. My own feeling is that it would also help put the coincidence of the date Bush's call for a state of emergency for Cindy and the rise of Katrina in context and be a good ending for the article as it would define more clearly why Cindy is significant. Wtfiv (talk) 03:20, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yea, I like it more with the aftermath, thanks for that suggestion. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:56, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think you could've definitely pulled it off if you didn't put an aftermath in, but I also think an aftermath would be even stronger. Cindy sounds like the prelude to a season of storms culminating in Katrina. My own feeling is that it would also help put the coincidence of the date Bush's call for a state of emergency for Cindy and the rise of Katrina in context and be a good ending for the article as it would define more clearly why Cindy is significant. Wtfiv (talk) 03:20, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Eh, after reading some of the earlier comments about the timeline, I agree, an aftermath section would be useful, and there is enough to put there. Please let me know what you think, Wtfiv (talk · contribs). Thanks again for the review! ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:38, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sounds good. I'll take another overall look when you are ready and all the comments have been addressed. Please ping me when you're done. I'll try to check in now and then, but I don't have this on my watchlist. Wtfiv (talk) 21:03, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- There wasn't much aftermath for Cindy specifically. It was more of a prologue to Dennis and Katrina, and the longest lasting aspect of the storm was the tornado damage to the Speedway. I took that note and added the mentioning of Denis and Katrina earlier in the narrative, saying that Cindy was the first of six storms in 2005 to produce hurricane force winds in the US. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:55, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:45, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
I have an ill-disguised soft spot for Ove Jørgensen. He is (barely) remembered among Homeric scholars as the originator of Jørgensen's law, an early and astute observation about narration in the Odyssey which in many ways set the stage for the modern fascination with narratology in the Homeric poems. After throwing an almighty strop in response to being left out of an academic society, Jørgensen left classical academia with a single publication to his name, and spent the rest of his career as a cantankerous if apparently beloved Classics teacher, an acerbic commentator on ballet and an erudite editor of Dickens. From an article-writing perspective, working on Jørgensen was a rewarding opportunity to bring together a few different threads of scholarship -- he is known for the early part of his career among classicists, for the later part among ballet historians, and throughout by scholars of his lifelong friends Carl Nielsen and Anne Marie Carl-Nielsen, but I think this is probably the first biography to pull together all those different threads of interest in him into a single picture. UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:45, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
Image review
- File:Isadora_Duncan_-_first_fairy.jpg: when and where was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:49, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- 1896, in Baker's Art Gallery -- I've added the link to the Ur-source, at the NY Public Library, here to the Commons page. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:58, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hm, that site credits Baker's as the photographer? Nikkimaria (talk) 21:01, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I can’t see it as anything other than ‘this is where we got it from’ - at the very least, it surely means that Bakers exhibited it with the photographer unknown or uncredited? Alternatively, if we say that we don't have good evidence of its first publication (so, it's unpublished by anyone who would have the right to "publish" it in a copyright sense, which doesn't include the NYPL), it's pre 1904, so pd-US-unpublished would cover it anyway. The NYPL page states that they believe it to be PD in the US. UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, but exhibition doesn't typically meet the legal definition of "published", at least in the US. (Do we know if Baker's is American or something else?) Was there any other publication that we know of prior to the digitization by NYPL? Nikkimaria (talk) 22:15, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure that Baker's Gallery is this place, founded in Columbus in the 1860s. The NYPL's catalogue states that the photograph was published c. 1896 -- admittedly, the distinction between "produced" and "published" may well be a matter of the metadata that their system allows rather than of copyright law. Part of me wants to take a strict verifiability, not truth position and say that a reliable source (the NYPL) has said it was published in 1896, so that's enough for us -- otherwise, we could use PD-because and explain that the NYPL have identified the image as being in the public domain in the United States? UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:54, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, but exhibition doesn't typically meet the legal definition of "published", at least in the US. (Do we know if Baker's is American or something else?) Was there any other publication that we know of prior to the digitization by NYPL? Nikkimaria (talk) 22:15, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I can’t see it as anything other than ‘this is where we got it from’ - at the very least, it surely means that Bakers exhibited it with the photographer unknown or uncredited? Alternatively, if we say that we don't have good evidence of its first publication (so, it's unpublished by anyone who would have the right to "publish" it in a copyright sense, which doesn't include the NYPL), it's pre 1904, so pd-US-unpublished would cover it anyway. The NYPL page states that they believe it to be PD in the US. UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hm, that site credits Baker's as the photographer? Nikkimaria (talk) 21:01, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Think that last option would be neatest. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:12, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- OK, done. UndercoverClassicist T·C 07:49, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Think that last option would be neatest. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:12, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
The language field is inconsistently used for non-English sources. Would you like a photo of his grave site? --Guerillero Parlez Moi 17:10, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes please on the photograph — done on the sources,I think. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:32, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- @UndercoverClassicist: Ove Jørgensen does not currently have a grave marker in Holmens Kirkegård -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 15:03, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Interesting: thank you. I assume it was normal practice in Denmark, as in most European countries, to disinter bodies after a while and re-use the grave, particularly if they had no living family? UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:25, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Correct. My understanding after talking with my Danish coworkers is that gravesites in Denmark are rented for a term of years and bodies are disintered if the family is not willing to renew the lease. -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 20:13, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- That tracks: J. doesn't seem to have had any children or known family, so not a huge surprise, if a bit of a shame. Thank you for trekking out and looking, though! UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:45, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Correct. My understanding after talking with my Danish coworkers is that gravesites in Denmark are rented for a term of years and bodies are disintered if the family is not willing to renew the lease. -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 20:13, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Interesting: thank you. I assume it was normal practice in Denmark, as in most European countries, to disinter bodies after a while and re-use the grave, particularly if they had no living family? UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:25, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- @UndercoverClassicist: Ove Jørgensen does not currently have a grave marker in Holmens Kirkegård -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 15:03, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
FM
[edit]- This is well outside my area of expertise, but it's short and it's about a countryman of mine, so I'll have a look once someone more, uh, classically trained has reviewed it. Don't hesitate to ask if you need someone to look over or translate something from potential Danish sources. FunkMonk (talk) 21:06, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hi FM -- thank you for this, very much obliged. For now, could I ask two questions/favours? Firstly, I've included here just about everything I could find that mentions J. at any length: if you can do a cursory look and find anything else written in Danish, could you point me towards it? Secondly, if you know your way around IPA or pronunciation guides, I think one would be very helpful, but I don't really have the Danish expertise to make one. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:26, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- I did a search earlier, and the most comprehensive account I could find was in Den Store Danske Encyklopædi.[4] At a glance, the Wikipedia article already seems to cover most of the ground, but I'll give it a closer look when I read the article and see if there's anything that could be added. According to some results, the 2005 text "Den (over)levende tradition / The (Sur)viving Tradition" by Karen Vedel covers Jørgensen, but I can't find it. Don't know much about IPA, unfortunately, but I know how the name is pronounced, of course. FunkMonk (talk) 16:38, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks -- I used the Den Store Danske Encyklopædi heavily, and I think it's currently the only real biography, apart from this one, in print in any language. Could you give an English approximation of the pronunciation -- I can probably work it into close-enough IPA, or use it as a respell? UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:39, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, I didn't realise it was the same source. That page lists some sources in its bibliography: "Peter P. Rohde i Information 10.11.1950", an article in the Danish paper Dagbladet Information, and "Thure Hastrup i O. J.: Udv. skr., 1971 7–19", which appears to maybe be the foreword to "Udvalgte Skrifter" which you have in the bibliography, and then the last source listed. "Papirer i Kgl. bibl." are papers in the Danish Royal Library. The two first texts should be findable, perhaps with the help of WP:RX? Googling a bit, this journal has some Danish articles by Jørgensen[5], this American article seems to mention him[6], and this Danish museum article[7] states that the period where Jørgensen and other significant figures associated with Carl Nielsen has been described as a "new golden age in Danish spiritual (or intellectual) life". As for pronunciation, when I just type in "Ove Jørgensen pronunciation Danish" in Google, an accurate sound clip is playable straight from the search engine. FunkMonk (talk) 19:06, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- All wonderful -- thank you. Will work my way through it. UndercoverClassicist T·C 19:10, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- OK - got the "new golden age", the Udvalgte Skrifter forward is coming though the wonderful folks at RX (got a request there for the Dagbladet Information article too, but it requires a Danish or at least Scandinavian institutional login), and J's 1911 article is in there. The Calhoun article is used at length in Jørgensen's law (as C. was really the first to properly codify the "law" and outline its various caveats and exceptions): it might come back when I have a go at expanding the treatment of the law here. I've had a go at adding pronunciation -- please tweak if you can (I used this website to check that the IPA transcription sounded how I thought) UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:21, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Even if the IPA is correct, you should not use {{respell}} anyway, since policy forbids its use in approximating languages other than English per WP:RESPELLNOT.
- @FunkMonk: Can you confirm vowel length and lack of stød? ThaesOfereode (talk) 13:35, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- UCC, I believe the 1950 Information article could be his obituary, so could definitely come in handy. TOE, that IPA reader website seems to give a distinct Anglophonic "twang" to everything, so a bit hard to judge, but it seems a syllable is needed for JØrgEnsen, now it sounds even more like the Danish name Jensen with an American pronunciation... I believe that "stød" should be where the otherwise silent g is, if I understand the term correctly. Like "Jør'ensen". Funny, they don't teach you about "stød" in regular Danish class, I guess it's just taken for granted. FunkMonk (talk) 18:08, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Added the stød, which I think gets the right sound -- I used the Icelandic "reader" on the IPA website, as they don't have a Danish one! Agreed on the obituary: I'm not sure I can currently find enough bibliographical information to meaningfully list it in Further Reading, but I'm optimistic that someone will come along in RX (I don't suppose you know anyone likely to have the right login?) UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:32, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, that explains the more "twangy" sound haha, Icelandic is the farthest you can get from Danish among the Scandinavian langues, would probably sound more correct with the German reader. I'm not sure that Icelandic website you linked at RX has Danish papers? I managed to find the correct issue on Information's archival website[8], but it seems it needs a subscriber's login... Maybe I can ask the Danish National Library, I got free copies of newspapers from them before. This site[9] run by the library also has scans, but you also need to be affiliated with specific universities to log in. FunkMonk (talk) 18:47, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Would be wonderful if you can get anything - I'll add those links to the RX request in case anyone finds it. It looks as thought this one accepts logins via the Danish National Library, which in turn looks like you can create an account using your MitID -- is that anything that makes sense to you? UndercoverClassicist T·C 19:00, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- I just logged in, but unfortunately it says I can't view it anyway, I guess current university affiliation is needed. FunkMonk (talk) 19:16, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Would be wonderful if you can get anything - I'll add those links to the RX request in case anyone finds it. It looks as thought this one accepts logins via the Danish National Library, which in turn looks like you can create an account using your MitID -- is that anything that makes sense to you? UndercoverClassicist T·C 19:00, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, that explains the more "twangy" sound haha, Icelandic is the farthest you can get from Danish among the Scandinavian langues, would probably sound more correct with the German reader. I'm not sure that Icelandic website you linked at RX has Danish papers? I managed to find the correct issue on Information's archival website[8], but it seems it needs a subscriber's login... Maybe I can ask the Danish National Library, I got free copies of newspapers from them before. This site[9] run by the library also has scans, but you also need to be affiliated with specific universities to log in. FunkMonk (talk) 18:47, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- When I first learned about the stød, I asked a Danish friend to explain it to me. She expressed a similar attitude, so it's neat to see you say the same. I found it quite difficult to differentiate hun from hund. On the topic of Danish pronunciation, can you confirm that the pronunciation of Jørgensen contains an /ŋ/ (as in English "sing") before the /s/ and not an /n/ (as in English "sin")? It seems unlikely that the /n/ would not be alveolar, though the rest of the transliteration corresponds to my (limited) understanding of Danish phonology. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:00, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- It would actually just be "n", hard to find a good demonstration, but you can hear it pretty clearly in this video 30 seconds in ("Bodil Jørgensen"):[10] FunkMonk (talk) 01:37, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Added the stød, which I think gets the right sound -- I used the Icelandic "reader" on the IPA website, as they don't have a Danish one! Agreed on the obituary: I'm not sure I can currently find enough bibliographical information to meaningfully list it in Further Reading, but I'm optimistic that someone will come along in RX (I don't suppose you know anyone likely to have the right login?) UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:32, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- UCC, I believe the 1950 Information article could be his obituary, so could definitely come in handy. TOE, that IPA reader website seems to give a distinct Anglophonic "twang" to everything, so a bit hard to judge, but it seems a syllable is needed for JØrgEnsen, now it sounds even more like the Danish name Jensen with an American pronunciation... I believe that "stød" should be where the otherwise silent g is, if I understand the term correctly. Like "Jør'ensen". Funny, they don't teach you about "stød" in regular Danish class, I guess it's just taken for granted. FunkMonk (talk) 18:08, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- OK - got the "new golden age", the Udvalgte Skrifter forward is coming though the wonderful folks at RX (got a request there for the Dagbladet Information article too, but it requires a Danish or at least Scandinavian institutional login), and J's 1911 article is in there. The Calhoun article is used at length in Jørgensen's law (as C. was really the first to properly codify the "law" and outline its various caveats and exceptions): it might come back when I have a go at expanding the treatment of the law here. I've had a go at adding pronunciation -- please tweak if you can (I used this website to check that the IPA transcription sounded how I thought) UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:21, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- All wonderful -- thank you. Will work my way through it. UndercoverClassicist T·C 19:10, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, I didn't realise it was the same source. That page lists some sources in its bibliography: "Peter P. Rohde i Information 10.11.1950", an article in the Danish paper Dagbladet Information, and "Thure Hastrup i O. J.: Udv. skr., 1971 7–19", which appears to maybe be the foreword to "Udvalgte Skrifter" which you have in the bibliography, and then the last source listed. "Papirer i Kgl. bibl." are papers in the Danish Royal Library. The two first texts should be findable, perhaps with the help of WP:RX? Googling a bit, this journal has some Danish articles by Jørgensen[5], this American article seems to mention him[6], and this Danish museum article[7] states that the period where Jørgensen and other significant figures associated with Carl Nielsen has been described as a "new golden age in Danish spiritual (or intellectual) life". As for pronunciation, when I just type in "Ove Jørgensen pronunciation Danish" in Google, an accurate sound clip is playable straight from the search engine. FunkMonk (talk) 19:06, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks -- I used the Den Store Danske Encyklopædi heavily, and I think it's currently the only real biography, apart from this one, in print in any language. Could you give an English approximation of the pronunciation -- I can probably work it into close-enough IPA, or use it as a respell? UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:39, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- I did a search earlier, and the most comprehensive account I could find was in Den Store Danske Encyklopædi.[4] At a glance, the Wikipedia article already seems to cover most of the ground, but I'll give it a closer look when I read the article and see if there's anything that could be added. According to some results, the 2005 text "Den (over)levende tradition / The (Sur)viving Tradition" by Karen Vedel covers Jørgensen, but I can't find it. Don't know much about IPA, unfortunately, but I know how the name is pronounced, of course. FunkMonk (talk) 16:38, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Looks like some proper reviews have concluded below, so I'll add my minor layman points. First, it looks like "Socratic way of life" is just a WP:duplink of Socrates, linked in the very same sentence. Perhaps it should link to something more specific? FunkMonk (talk) 22:57, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed, but tricky to pick a target. Have gone with Socratic intellectualism (currently a redirect). UndercoverClassicist T·C 07:57, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Link Constantinople in the taxobox image caption?
- "Carl Nielsen mentions him sixty-three times in his diary" considering the scarcity of sources, I wonder if this is something that has been published and could be used somehow?
- It has, though the very limited access I have to it (Google Books preview) doesn't really pull up much of use -- I think I've mentioned this briefly in some of the other reviews. If you've got better access to it, would be grateful for anything you can find. UndercoverClassicist T·C 07:57, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- What is it called? FunkMonk (talk) 15:06, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Here it is via Google Books: part of an edited volume of diaries and letters, from what I can see. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:30, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- What is it called? FunkMonk (talk) 15:06, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- "written in German, in the journal Hermes" I wonder if you could just say "in the German journal Hermes": it's less wordy, and it also specifies the journal itself was from Germany, without having to repeat the word "German".
- True, but that would elide the fact that J. wrote in his second language -- after all, academic journals routinely take submissions in many languages. I'm not sure it's particularly important that the journal was German as opposed to that the article was. UndercoverClassicist T·C 07:57, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hmm, to me it would be pretty clear from "German journal" and the German title listed right before? German fluency was common for the Danish elite, so it isn't that unusual either way (most Danes still learn it in elementary school). FunkMonk (talk) 15:06, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Hermes" is a Greek title, and in their last edition, most of the articles were in English -- it really isn't the case that (e.g.) a French journal will only (or even mostly) have articles written in French. I do see your point, but I think the current framing is the right balance between making the important facts explicit and not being too repetitious. Interesting on German fluency -- I suppose that explains the many academic connections between Copenhagen and Berlin in the period -- and, slightly earlier, the outsized number of Danish intellectuals in the Bavarian-run Kingdom of Greece in the decades after independence. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:29, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hmm, to me it would be pretty clear from "German journal" and the German title listed right before? German fluency was common for the Danish elite, so it isn't that unusual either way (most Danes still learn it in elementary school). FunkMonk (talk) 15:06, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- "by the Isadora Duncan" The what? Seems something is missing?
- Cut the the -- my thinking was that it's obvious enough in context that she was a dancer that actually saying so feels redundant. UndercoverClassicist T·C 07:57, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- In the intro, you present: "with the composer Carl Nielsen and his wife, the sculptor Anne Marie Carl-Nielsen" but in the article it's: "where Jørgensen met the composer Carl Nielsen and his wife Anne Marie". I wonder if her occupation should also be mentioned when she is introduced in the article body? And now she is just presented as a sort of "appendix" to her husband since you don't give her full name there. While I realise it's a repetitive name, since it's the same as her husband's, you do give her full name in the intro after all.
- Quite right -- I do think giving her full name is correct, since her surname wasn't the "obvious" Nielsen. UndercoverClassicist T·C 07:57, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- "promoting what he saw as authentic, masculine Danish aesthetics – represented by the ballet master August Bournonville" Kind of funny, since he was French/Swedish...
- Go figure -- plus, of course, ballet is an odd choice for a definingly Danish art form! I suspect that J. was more concerned with the aesthetics and perceived conservatism than the nationality, given that he was happy enough to side with Fokine (who was very classicising and, I think, had similar ideas to J. about aesthetics). UndercoverClassicist T·C 07:57, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- That's all from me, any success in getting those extra sources? Otherwise I'll write the National Library one of these days about the possible obituary.
- Some success, but none with the obituary -- if you've got an "in" with the National Library, that would be wonderful. Otherwise, do you know if Danish Wiki has an equivalent of RX? Honestly, given that it was consulted for the Hartmann article, I would hope that it won't radically change what we know, but it may well have some useful details and I think has value as further reading anyway. Still nothing on his experience/actions under occupation, and the more cynical part of me wonders if that silence itself answers some questions... UndercoverClassicist T·C 07:57, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- They answered that one has to physically go to the library to access the archive from their computers, so I'm not sure one can even save the info if they aren't a researcher... FunkMonk (talk) 15:06, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- A shame -- I think we shall probably have to draw a blank here for now, then. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:25, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- They answered that one has to physically go to the library to access the archive from their computers, so I'm not sure one can even save the info if they aren't a researcher... FunkMonk (talk) 15:06, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support - too bad those additional sources couldn't be obtained yet, but as you said, they probably don't contain much info that isn't already in the article. FunkMonk (talk) 19:27, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you -- appreciate your valuable comments and your help with the sources, even (especially!) though that proved to be a difficult and frustrating chase. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:00, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
ThaesOfereode
[edit]Feels like a topic I can throw my hat in on. Plus, a named law? Count me in. I hope the below is helpful, though it is a hair nitpicky, admittedly (maybe... this is my first FAR). Pretty much everything below can be challenged; I know the difficulty of trying to write about someone notable with glaring gaps in their life's story.
- Thank you for the review -- I am hardly in a position to complain about nit-picking, and the more careful eyes that the article can have over it, the better. Replies below: all very wise and pertinent comments, though I think some of the infelicities you've identified are artefacts of the subject matter as much as of its presentation here. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm glad I've been helpful so far. Below, I've responded to what I think needed comment or further revision (assume anything not addressed is good to go, addressed elsewhere, or awaiting other action). You'll note that I ask "Can we get a quote from XYZ?" quite a lot; don't feel like each instance needs to be fulfilled. I think just one or two from the suggestions will add something positive to the overall quality of the article, help to contextualize and/or explain critical elements of the piece. I might place slight primacy on contextualizing the Nielsen–Jørgensen relationship better with an appropriate quote from Nielsen's diary, but I will leave it up to you to decide if there is anything worth taking from it. Again, nothing in here is show stopping and if the below are not actionable, I'm still happy to support in its current condition. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- I managed to get a little quote in on his ballet views, which has some distinctive turns of phrase -- it's quoted at slightly greater length in the source, but I think doing it as a quote box would be repetitious and would maybe crowd the article a little. I think we've got the most important and distinctive bits. UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- This article is in great shape; I'm glad you were able to find good additions to the article after bringing it here. Happy to support. Great work. Hope I was half as helpful in this article as you were in mine! ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:14, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you -- for your judicious and thoughtful comments, of course, but particularly for your help with the pronunciation. I am always grateful to have someone come along who actually knows what they are talking about! UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:47, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Happy to help. Feel free to ping me whenever for IPA/linguistics concerns: I have more papers on the topic than I can count and I'd hate for them to just gather dust! ThaesOfereode (talk) 13:52, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you -- for your judicious and thoughtful comments, of course, but particularly for your help with the pronunciation. I am always grateful to have someone come along who actually knows what they are talking about! UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:47, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- This article is in great shape; I'm glad you were able to find good additions to the article after bringing it here. Happy to support. Great work. Hope I was half as helpful in this article as you were in mine! ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:14, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- I managed to get a little quote in on his ballet views, which has some distinctive turns of phrase -- it's quoted at slightly greater length in the source, but I think doing it as a quote box would be repetitious and would maybe crowd the article a little. I think we've got the most important and distinctive bits. UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm glad I've been helpful so far. Below, I've responded to what I think needed comment or further revision (assume anything not addressed is good to go, addressed elsewhere, or awaiting other action). You'll note that I ask "Can we get a quote from XYZ?" quite a lot; don't feel like each instance needs to be fulfilled. I think just one or two from the suggestions will add something positive to the overall quality of the article, help to contextualize and/or explain critical elements of the piece. I might place slight primacy on contextualizing the Nielsen–Jørgensen relationship better with an appropriate quote from Nielsen's diary, but I will leave it up to you to decide if there is anything worth taking from it. Again, nothing in here is show stopping and if the below are not actionable, I'm still happy to support in its current condition. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Came back to check how this article was doing. Given that it's changed quite a bit, I hope you won't mind me plunging in for a second volley.
- You want to consider trimming down the lede since it's about twice as long as MOS:LEADLENGTH recommends.
- MOS:LEADLENGTH has come up at FAC a few times: I don't think I'm speaking out of turn to say that few writers or reviewers have set much in store, at least recently, by the lengths proposed in the table. There's also often a contradiction with MOS:LEAD, which is to me the more important guideline -- that the lead should summarise the key points of the article well enough that readers can use it as a concise summary of the whole. 300 or so words in three and a bit medium-length paragraphs is very much down the line for an FA biography, and by my count it's about 15% of the length of the body. Happy to take suggestions if it's verbose or if there are unimportant details in there -- I know I'm probably too close to the text to see it dispassionately -- but would resist cutting it purely for the sake of meeting the suggested numbers (and they are only that) in LEADLENGTH. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:15, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think linking Fear and Trembling in a sacred shudder is incorrect; I think it's probably an Easter egg in any case, but if not, linking Kierkegaard's work seems like the least likely quotation. I think linking Philippians 2 is more appropriate, if the context suggests it is from Scripture, but broadly speaking, I think "a sacred shudder" is likely a metaphor, not a reference, especially given that the Pauline line has a totally different connotation (Jørgensen's "goosebumps in the presence of greatness" vs. Paul's exhortation to persist in obedience to the Divine).
- Personally, I think it's almost certain that he is referencing "fear and trembling" in the biblical sense of trembling before the Lord (found in Psalm 55 and elsewhere, not just in Philippians) -- I would have linked to an article on the phrase, but there isn't one, and the phrase itself redirects to Kirkegaard (then explains the biblical reference early in the article). Honestly, the linking in that quote is a bit Easter-egg-ish, but it needs to be -- a large part of the point of including that quotation is to get across the sheer density of allusions, flourishes and languages in J.'s writing (he slips into English a paragraph or so later). If you think there's a real doubt as to whether there is a biblical allusion intended (the letter is transmitted in translation, unfortunately, which makes the question a little harder), I will unlink under only very mild protest. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:15, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- First, I'm floored that Philippians 2 doesn't have any reference to "fear and trembling"; I guess it's another thing to put on my never-ending to-do list. Regardless, let's say for the sake of argument that the letter does have a clear reference to the biblical phrase. I think the casual reader will interpret that link there as Jørgensen referencing Kierkegaard, not Jørgensen referencing the same source as Kierkegaard. Jørgensen was a learned man and I would be surprised if he had never read the work of his fellow countryman with whom his father's life overlapped; I don't think it would be unreasonable to make that jump, for the reader to assume from the link that Kierkegaard is being referenced. And that's assuming it is a biblical reference. I think the big "if" as to whether that is the precise reference (which I'm willing to concede, given the time/person), the Easter egginess (no fault of the nominator, simply a problem of linking in quotations), and the possible confusion this renders to the reader all conspire to have us remove the link from the article, unfortunately. ThaesOfereode (talk) 12:35, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Would it be a workable compromise to direct the link to Fear and trembling (biblical phrase)? From a quick Google Books search, it would pass GNG and there's enough material for a stub/start. UndercoverClassicist T·C 12:51, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Absolutely. I can't believe there isn't already a page on it. ThaesOfereode (talk) 14:06, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Good news -- there now is. Link changed to fit. UndercoverClassicist T·C 23:02, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Wow, this page is really good for having just been set up. Kudos! ThaesOfereode (talk) 02:38, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Good news -- there now is. Link changed to fit. UndercoverClassicist T·C 23:02, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Absolutely. I can't believe there isn't already a page on it. ThaesOfereode (talk) 14:06, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Would it be a workable compromise to direct the link to Fear and trembling (biblical phrase)? From a quick Google Books search, it would pass GNG and there's enough material for a stub/start. UndercoverClassicist T·C 12:51, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- I believe a citation is needed after In Berlin, he began the process of writing what became his 1904 article on the invocation of the gods in the Odyssey.
- Oops, yes -- a casualty of rearranging. Fixed. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:15, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Purely a cosmetic suggestion, so feel free to refute, but there's a sort of staccato in reading when you place footnote markers after commas, semi-colons, etc. Consider using {{multiref}} (or {{multiref2}} for lengthy quotations/explanations) at the end of sentences and just explaining which source states which cause. The sentences Jørgensen began work on a book-length treatment [...] and He became a lifelong friend [...], for example, would benefit greatly.
- I think there's advantages and trade-offs to both approaches -- I don't necessarily disagree with your view of the aesthetics, but there is also an advantage to keeping citations as close as possible to the material they support, especially when (as often here) we are having to stitch together multiple sources to form a coherent narrative even at the sentence level. WP:CITE has citation markers are normally placed after adjacent punctuation such as periods (full stops) and commas ... The citation should be added close to the material it supports, offering text–source integrity. -- that at least gives licence to the current approach, I think. Purely subjectively, I'm not a fan of how the multiref templates format the references section, especially when it's a long one. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:15, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Not a problem. Like I said, it's more of a cosmetic change than a necessity. ThaesOfereode (talk) 12:12, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Fair enough; withdrawn. It can be difficult to tell which MOS standards have wiggle room and which ones must be strictly followed as a newcomer to FAC. ThaesOfereode (talk) 12:18, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- You want to consider trimming down the lede since it's about twice as long as MOS:LEADLENGTH recommends.
- Other than that, I have nothing else to say; this is still an excellent article. ThaesOfereode (talk) 18:43, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for these -- I believe I've fixed and/or responded as needed. @Nikkimaria, Tim riley, SchroCat, FunkMonk, and Generalissima: in the interests of transparency, I have made a few additions from Hastrup 1971, so you may (or may not) wish to take another look to see if your view of the article remains the same. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:15, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Looking at these additions, my support still stands - indeed, is strengthened by the new edits. - SchroCat (talk) 20:27, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Good to see you got that source, looks fine to me. FunkMonk (talk) 20:29, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Very scrupulous of you UC. No, I see not the smallest need to revise my opinion and I continue to support. Tim riley talk 20:30, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I concur that it looks good! Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 20:36, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Very scrupulous of you UC. No, I see not the smallest need to revise my opinion and I continue to support. Tim riley talk 20:30, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Good to see you got that source, looks fine to me. FunkMonk (talk) 20:29, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Looking at these additions, my support still stands - indeed, is strengthened by the new edits. - SchroCat (talk) 20:27, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for these -- I believe I've fixed and/or responded as needed. @Nikkimaria, Tim riley, SchroCat, FunkMonk, and Generalissima: in the interests of transparency, I have made a few additions from Hastrup 1971, so you may (or may not) wish to take another look to see if your view of the article remains the same. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:15, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
A few notes on prose to start.
- and of Jørgensen's wife – Seems like a WP:POSA thing to add; if he had been born out of wedlock in 1870s Denmark, that would be worth mentioning. Still, if you think this should stand, I think his wife is better than simply "Jørgensen's wife".
- Yes, I think you're right -- think it's now better formulated as his wife, Louise née Wellmann.
- an accompanied them to Constantinople – Why? Were they doing something of note there? I'm not sure traveling with someone of note necessarily needs to make it into the details of his life.
- Sightseeing, particularly ancient monuments -- one assumes J. acted as guide. I've added a link to N's diary on the latter point. I'm struggling to find the duration of the trip (from memory, it was about a month). I'd agree that it's not the most exciting detail, but I think it helps to establish J's relationship with the Carl Nielsens as developing quickly and as more than simple acquaintance (in the original of the infobox image, N. is sitting immediately to J's right). I think he went to Athens with him as well, but couldn't get enough of the diary to be sure (User:FunkMonk may have more luck?) See the point below too. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that it's important to establish the origins of their relationship. Consider adding a crop of the image from the infobox with Nielsen; it might be nice to have a photo of them together given Nielsen's overall importance in the article. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- The image isn't (demonstrably) PD, unfortunately: we can use a crop from it as the infobox image, but per WP:NFCC that use needs to be "minimal", so including Nielsen there would be legally dubious (as well as potentially confusing), and using the image again as mere illustration would not really be compatible with the FUR. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:34, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, I didn't realize this was fair use. That's my bad entirely for not checking. ThaesOfereode (talk) 13:36, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- The image isn't (demonstrably) PD, unfortunately: we can use a crop from it as the infobox image, but per WP:NFCC that use needs to be "minimal", so including Nielsen there would be legally dubious (as well as potentially confusing), and using the image again as mere illustration would not really be compatible with the FUR. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:34, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that it's important to establish the origins of their relationship. Consider adding a crop of the image from the infobox with Nielsen; it might be nice to have a photo of them together given Nielsen's overall importance in the article. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sightseeing, particularly ancient monuments -- one assumes J. acted as guide. I've added a link to N's diary on the latter point. I'm struggling to find the duration of the trip (from memory, it was about a month). I'd agree that it's not the most exciting detail, but I think it helps to establish J's relationship with the Carl Nielsens as developing quickly and as more than simple acquaintance (in the original of the infobox image, N. is sitting immediately to J's right). I think he went to Athens with him as well, but couldn't get enough of the diary to be sure (User:FunkMonk may have more luck?) See the point below too. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Carl Nielsen mentions him sixty-three times in his diary. – I think this needs more context. Is this a lot? How long were they in Constantinople? I would strongly consider the precise dates, if the information exists. If they were in Constantinople together for an appreciable amount of time, it makes sense that Nielsen would reference Jørgensen a lot. Sixty-three mentions on a week's trip is a lot, but sixty-three mentions in a year is hardly noteworthy.
- It's throughout the whole diary: I don't have context as to how often he mentions other people, but the point is that they were more than passing acquaintances. See above -- Nielsen is really the only true constant across the two halves of J's life, and is indeed the relationship between N. and J. is a not insubstantial part of what makes J. "notable", in the sense of being of interest to scholars -- on a rough count, somewhere not far south of half of the sources that write about him do so as a friend and correspondent of Nielsen. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Is there any chance that you (or FM) can add an excerpt from the diary? I know you've called it a pretty terse document, but something from Nielsen's diary that contextualizes Jørgensen's (certainly) vast knowledge about the area would be excellent. Equally as good – if not better – would be a quote that explains how they met, why/how they decided to take this trip in particular, etc., which would really help to set their relationship more comfortably in the article.
- The bits of the diary to which I have access don't have anything suitable, unfortunately, but agreed that this would be a good addition if someone who does have more of them can find it. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:33, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- No worries. I suspected this would be the case, but I had to at least advocate for it. ThaesOfereode (talk) 13:37, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Is there any chance that you (or FM) can add an excerpt from the diary? I know you've called it a pretty terse document, but something from Nielsen's diary that contextualizes Jørgensen's (certainly) vast knowledge about the area would be excellent. Equally as good – if not better – would be a quote that explains how they met, why/how they decided to take this trip in particular, etc., which would really help to set their relationship more comfortably in the article.
- It's throughout the whole diary: I don't have context as to how often he mentions other people, but the point is that they were more than passing acquaintances. See above -- Nielsen is really the only true constant across the two halves of J's life, and is indeed the relationship between N. and J. is a not insubstantial part of what makes J. "notable", in the sense of being of interest to scholars -- on a rough count, somewhere not far south of half of the sources that write about him do so as a friend and correspondent of Nielsen. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- In this article, Jørgensen observed that Homeric characters typically use generic terms, particularly θεός (theos, 'a god'), δαίμων (a daimon) and Ζεύς (Zeus), to refer to the action of gods, whereas the narrator and the gods themselves always name the specific gods responsible.
- to refer to the action of gods → to refer to the actions of the gods, right?
- Plural actions, but not "the" gods, I don't think -- works fine with the implied contrast being "the actions of gods" vs "the actions of mortals". "Gods" doesn't always need a the in front of it, though it often has one. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, I think either works fine. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Plural actions, but not "the" gods, I don't think -- works fine with the implied contrast being "the actions of gods" vs "the actions of mortals". "Gods" doesn't always need a the in front of it, though it often has one. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not a classicist, but it's not clear at all why or how Zeus (a specific god) is used to refer to the actions of the gods in general. Is there a way Homer differentiates between the actions of "zeus" vs the actions of "Zeus"?
- It's the characters, not the narrators -- the idea is that a character might say e.g. "Zeus gave me good fortune, and I won the fight", but mean that as a general idea that they had divine assistance, rather than specifically singling out Zeus as opposed to e.g. Athena, Hera, etc. There are one or two specific cases where this is broken (some discussed in the relevant article) -- in the Iliad, for example, Achilles sounds as though he's about to do it in Book 1, where he complains to his goddess mother Thetis that Zeus doesn't give him the respect that he deserves, but then goes on to make absolutely clear that he is talking specifically about the king of the gods (perhaps underlining his self-importance and perhaps arrogance?) In the Odyssey, Odysseus describes how Zeus sent a thunderbolt to sink his ship, after he angered the god of the sun -- again, here he's very obviously talking about Zeus specifically, but he does then explain himself by saying that he heard this account from the goddess Calypso later on. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Neat as hell. I think we might consider a way of conveying that to the audience. Can we splice in a quote from Jørgensen's work on it? Might add some nice detail into Jørgensen's writing style and his contemporary insight. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- If you have a look at the Jørgensen's law article, you'll see the best I could do on this -- unfortunately, it has to end up pretty chunky, as Jørgensen doesn't seem to have been interested in formulating it as a "law", rather than making observations on a specific part of the Odyssey. Honestly, I think that would be an undue use of space in this biographical article, though there might well be room to expand our coverage of the law in this one, and I think it has value where it is in the law's article. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:32, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Neat as hell. I think we might consider a way of conveying that to the audience. Can we splice in a quote from Jørgensen's work on it? Might add some nice detail into Jørgensen's writing style and his contemporary insight. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- It's the characters, not the narrators -- the idea is that a character might say e.g. "Zeus gave me good fortune, and I won the fight", but mean that as a general idea that they had divine assistance, rather than specifically singling out Zeus as opposed to e.g. Athena, Hera, etc. There are one or two specific cases where this is broken (some discussed in the relevant article) -- in the Iliad, for example, Achilles sounds as though he's about to do it in Book 1, where he complains to his goddess mother Thetis that Zeus doesn't give him the respect that he deserves, but then goes on to make absolutely clear that he is talking specifically about the king of the gods (perhaps underlining his self-importance and perhaps arrogance?) In the Odyssey, Odysseus describes how Zeus sent a thunderbolt to sink his ship, after he angered the god of the sun -- again, here he's very obviously talking about Zeus specifically, but he does then explain himself by saying that he heard this account from the goddess Calypso later on. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- to refer to the action of gods → to refer to the actions of the gods, right?
- Although most members were qualified as doctors of philosophy, others, including Nielsen, were invited. – Comma bomb here. Consider Although most members were qualified as doctors of philosophy, others – including Nielsen – were invited.
- Absolutely -- done. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- In 1916, working alongside the chemist S. P. L. Sørensen, Jørgensen completed and published Sophus's unfinished manuscript of Development History of the Chemical Concept of Acid until 1830. – Did Jørgensen only work on the manuscript in 1916 or was it just published in 1916 but had been worked on in previous years?
- Fair point -- cut "working". UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Jørgensen became an authority on ballet – How? Did he have background? Did he just write a bunch of stuff that others liked?
- It seems to have come out of nowhere! This is admittedly the biggest problem in writing this article -- with (exactly) one exception, all of the biographical accounts of J. are either by classicists, in which case they stop just before he gets into ballet, or by ballet scholars, in which case they start just afterwards -- nobody has really attempted to write the story of how he got into it. He seems to have been a generally cultured and erudite man, given his multiple expertise in classical poetry, English novels and ballet, but I don't think we have the sources to specifically say where his interest came from. He doesn't seem to have had a formal job, but did write a couple of articles in Tilskueren, which seems to have been a reasonably prominent magazine.
- Bizarre! Do you have any dates for articles he wrote in that magazine? It would be worth noting that he was writing ballet articles while he was still a professor, for example. As with his law, it would be cool to get insight on his view of ballet in his own words if the articles are accessible. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- He never was a professor (or "even" a PhD, which became a problem for him). His ballet articles, as far as I can tell, begin in 1905, the year he withdrew from academia (though he did write at least one review article of a classical work later, in 1911), but it would be WP:SYNTH to explicitly say that he only started his interest in ballet after/because of his falling-out with the classical establishment. It might be possible to pull a germane quote from one of those articles: I'll have a look. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:31, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- It seems to have come out of nowhere! This is admittedly the biggest problem in writing this article -- with (exactly) one exception, all of the biographical accounts of J. are either by classicists, in which case they stop just before he gets into ballet, or by ballet scholars, in which case they start just afterwards -- nobody has really attempted to write the story of how he got into it. He seems to have been a generally cultured and erudite man, given his multiple expertise in classical poetry, English novels and ballet, but I don't think we have the sources to specifically say where his interest came from. He doesn't seem to have had a formal job, but did write a couple of articles in Tilskueren, which seems to have been a reasonably prominent magazine.
- He condemned the Art Nouveau– – Not sure what this endash is doing here.
- "Art Nouveau" is a two-word adjective, so per MOS:DASH the (suspended, here) hyphen gets "upgraded" to an endash. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- TIL. Critique withdrawn. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Art Nouveau" is a two-word adjective, so per MOS:DASH the (suspended, here) hyphen gets "upgraded" to an endash. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- calling it "quasi-philosophical experiments". → calling them "quasi-philosophical experiments"., right?
- No: the antecedent is style (compare "UC's article is little more than incoherent ramblings"). UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yep, you're right. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- No: the antecedent is style (compare "UC's article is little more than incoherent ramblings"). UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- "standard analysis of ... the rules that govern human speech about the gods" – Probably non-actionable, but is there anything in the MOS about the use of [...] with the brackets vs. without?
- Without, I think, per MOS:...? UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- The MOS linked seems to indicate the brackets are necessary; without the brackets, they should only be used to indicate the speech trailing off. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- That page has Square brackets may be placed around an ellipsis that indicates omitted text to distinguish it from an ellipsis that is part of the quoted text. As I read that, it means that square brackets are a) optional and b) used when there's a trail-off ellipsis in the same quoted material -- that is, one added by the author and one by the editor. As that doesn't apply here, I think we should keep as is. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:39, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, "may" seems to indicate it's optional. Works for me. ThaesOfereode (talk) 13:42, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- That page has Square brackets may be placed around an ellipsis that indicates omitted text to distinguish it from an ellipsis that is part of the quoted text. As I read that, it means that square brackets are a) optional and b) used when there's a trail-off ellipsis in the same quoted material -- that is, one added by the author and one by the editor. As that doesn't apply here, I think we should keep as is. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:39, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- The MOS linked seems to indicate the brackets are necessary; without the brackets, they should only be used to indicate the speech trailing off. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Without, I think, per MOS:...? UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
A few notes on content.
- I think, given that Jørgensen's main claim to fame is the eponymous law, I think maybe it deserves an expansion from its current (body) size of one short paragraph. In particular, I think it would be good to describe how Jørgensen originally formulated/supported his thesis and compare his work with modern scholarship (as in, Jørgensen's original formulation has stood the test of time or modern scholarship has departed from the original formulation in XYZ ways). Although, I suspect scholarship on how Jørgensen formulated the law may be scant.
- It is -- I might come back to this. The basic thrust is that J. had the basic insight, but didn't really attempt to codify it into a solid "law" or to attempt to phrase it in rigorous terms, so later scholars have done that work and applied the "Jørgensen's law" label to it. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Added a bit here -- from what I can tell, the real mover and shaker is Calhoun; there's some nice later work on the few cases where Jørgensen's law is straightforwardly broken, which usually makes a convincing argument that this would be noticed by the audience and tells us something interesting about what the poet is trying to do, but I think that's really out of scope for this particular article, as most of it happened decades after J's death. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:41, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- It is -- I might come back to this. The basic thrust is that J. had the basic insight, but didn't really attempt to codify it into a solid "law" or to attempt to phrase it in rigorous terms, so later scholars have done that work and applied the "Jørgensen's law" label to it. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Jørgensen's relationship with Carl Nielsen seems... out of place. I can tell that there is something that called you to repeatedly mention this friendship (and I imagine it is worth adding), but I find it difficult to connect it to the content. In "Later career" it's a little clear that Jørgensen had some impact on his marriage, but is there anything that says that they influenced each other's professional work? They traveled to Constantinople together; are there any episodes from that trip (or any other) that show a working relationship? Even a brief vignette would help to make the mention of the friendship feel more at home in the article.
- I'm not sure, but maybe FunkMonk's digging will show something. Nielsen is pretty laconic in the part of his diary I can find, just saying that they saw "everything of importance", including some Byzantine mosaics. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, here's hoping. It's an unfortunate thing about these documents that they never say the one thing you're hoping they will. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure, but maybe FunkMonk's digging will show something. Nielsen is pretty laconic in the part of his diary I can find, just saying that they saw "everything of importance", including some Byzantine mosaics. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- A similar thing can be said about the jump from classicist to ballet expert, but I admit there have been weirder jumps with less in the way of information about how A got to B. If any information exists on the topic – acknowledging that that may be a big "if" – it would be undeniably helpful to the reader.
- I think it was just a big jump -- see above. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Overall, this is an article in good condition, with hardly any issues in the way of prose. My main concern now is that there are parts which feel disjointed and do not convey importance to the reader well, but I suspect they can be easily remedied or the scholarship is simply non-existent/inaccessible. I suspect Danish-language skill may be a reasonable bottleneck here, but hopefully FunkMonk can assist should you find anything. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:25, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
SC
- "of Jørgensen's wife, Louise Wellmann" jars a little bit. Maybe "of Louise (nee Wellmann)" would suffice?
- Yup; fixed. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:45, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- "the philologist Anders Bjørn Drachmann": worth linking philologist, as it's an uncommon term?
- Done: might create a future sea of blue, but we can deal with that when it comes up. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:45, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Carl Nielsen mentions him sixty-three times in his diary": This is a potentially useful fact, but with no frame of reference it's a bit lost. Is that a lot? Were the mentions positive? Over how long were these spread, etc. Maybe only half a sentence is all that's needed to give it a bit more relevance, but it just looks like a bit of trivia as it stands.
- See ThaesOfereode's review above -- the point is well made, but we don't have the sources to do any of that, at least as far as I can find. I do think it's got some relevance, and it's not as if we're overloaded with biographical detail: when we've got comparatively little information about someone, I think we do need to drop our standards slightly and include things we might drop out of a fuller account of their life. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:45, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Was his love of ballet a lifelong thing? It sort of appears part way through the Later career section with no indication of an origin
- Again, see ThaesOfereode's review -- at the moment, I don't have the means to answer that. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:45, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Was the Wanscher lecture connected to ballet at all? It doesn't seem to fit here, being sandwiched between two parts of Duncan
- I don't think so, but again the sources are very scant, so I couldn't honestly tell you much about what Wanscher actually spoke about. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:45, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
It's relatively short, but I guess if his notability is limited to the eponymous law and his writing on ballet, then that's to be expected, although I was surprised reading of his 1950 death and realising that he lived, presumably in Copenhagen, under Nazi occupation. Was 1930 (the publication of Dickens) the last notable thing about his life until his death? either way, this is, as always, beautifully written and something that made me genuinely interested in someone I've never heard of before, so thank you for that. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 12:35, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, as ever -- you have the nail on the head, and I'm sure there are some very interesting stories to tell about the last two decades of his life. Unfortunately, the sources are truly scanty indeed -- almost none of them are interested in him for his own sake, and only really discuss him in relation to his classical scholarship, his ballet writings or his relationship with the Carl Nielsens. It might be that we can come up with some more, but at the moment I've not been able to, and none of it features in the one real biography of him that I believe exists outside Wikipedia. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:45, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support. - SchroCat (talk) 19:12, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Generalissima Looks like you just need a source review.
- I assume the "Search 'Ove Jørgensen' stuff refers to Google Books usage (since they have yet to perfect ctrl-f technology for physical books)? If so, might be good to provide the Google Books links in the bibliography.
- It's because they're eBooks -- I'll put the Google Books links in where I can find them, though most have only a very limited preview available. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:49, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Refs are generally laid out and formatted consistently. Good use of columns, and good job navigating a Danish-language source corpus.
- Burke's Peerage is missing a location.
- I've treated it as a journal, as it releases a new one every year and doesn't have an identifiable single author, and so given it an ISSN rather than an ISBN -- we don't generally give locations for journals. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:49, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oh, fair point then. - G Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 17:50, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Locations are not needed for publishers who have the name of the location in their title (See WP:CS1); so you don't need them for Oxford UP, Leuven UP, or Stockholm University.
- Only source that seemed potentially suspicious were Burke's Peerage and Weltzer, but they're used appropriately and sparingly.
- Looking through academic databases for Ove Jørgensen seems to reveal the exact set of sources you used, so it's safe to say you've done your due dilligence squeezing out whatever you can here.
@UndercoverClassicist: Beyond the minor scruples on formatting, seems like we're pretty much good to go here. Let me know when you've fixed up that stuff. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 17:42, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, Generalissima -- work in progress on the Google Books links; the rest sorted or replied. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:49, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Generalissima: I think I've now got URLs for all that I can. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:19, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- @UndercoverClassicist That looks good to me! Support on source review. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 15:25, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Many thanks, Generalissima. I've actually added the location to Burke's -- realised that I'd formatted it as a magazine, so don't have to be bound by conventions on journals, and there's a much stronger case for giving the publication location of a magazine, which may well be local in its nature. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:44, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- @UndercoverClassicist That looks good to me! Support on source review. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 15:25, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Generalissima: I think I've now got URLs for all that I can. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:19, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments Support from Tim riley
[edit]Precious little from me. The article is in fine shape. A few minor suggestions:
- "an article in which he outlined the distinctions between how the gods are referred to by mortal characters and by the narrator and gods in the Odyssey" – for precision I'd move "in the Odyssey" to follow "distinctions".
- Done, slightly differently -- moving Odyssey so far forward put it close enough to the article title that repeating it seemed redundant. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:24, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- "He subsequently travelled to Athens in 1903" – don't think we need "subsequently" as well as the year.
- Fair enough, done. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:24, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm having a little difficulty with the calendar: if he spent the 1902–1903 academic year in Berlin it seems odd that he moved to Athens in time to meet the Nielsens and go to Constantinople with them in May 1903. Or was the German academic year quite different from ours?
- Two possible explanations, I think, though neither is spelt out in the sources -- most likely, the academic year had ended (the week after the end of the Cambridge year is known as "May Week", though in recent times it happens in June), at least for these particular students (who weren't following a particularly formal course of study). Less likely, they could have considered the trip part of their studies, or simply bunked off. He didn't really move to Athens; that was very much a holiday/study trip. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:24, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Jørgensen … forgotten them" – a 57-word sentence that could do with breaking up, I think, probably after "way of life". And is "expected few to have forgotten" quite right here? "Expected to" sounds like an order – "He expected them to polish his shoes" – rather than expecting that few would have forgotten.
- Fair enough. Broken slightly earlier (which still leaves a pretty long sentence, but I couldn't make it sound right with the break as you suggested), and softened the phrasing as you suggest. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:24, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- "she had reconciled with Carl" – unexpected verb: I'd expect "was" rather than "had", but I may be wrong. Either way, would it not be more neutral to say "she and Carl were reconciled, and she was..." – rather than appearing to put the onus on Anne Marie?
- It would, but Anne Marie wasn't so neutral -- she very much presented it as her decision to stick with/settle for him. I think one can reconcile with someone, particularly when it's a conscious decision, but I imagine you have a more authoritative guide to English usage somewhere to hand? UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:24, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- Citations in the OED show both your use and mine in print. I subside gracefully. Tim riley talk 10:47, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- It would, but Anne Marie wasn't so neutral -- she very much presented it as her decision to stick with/settle for him. I think one can reconcile with someone, particularly when it's a conscious decision, but I imagine you have a more authoritative guide to English usage somewhere to hand? UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:24, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- "criticising the innovations introduced into European ballet by the dancer Isadora Duncan" – is it correct to say that Duncan introduced innovations into European ballet? She pranced about on European stages and opened a dance school but I'm not sure she dabbled in ballet, or would claim to have done. Perhaps safer to say "introduced innovations to European dance" rather than "introduced innovations to European ballet"?
- That's fair; changed. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:24, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Personal life and assessment" – a perfectly reasonable header, but the following text deals with assessment and then personal life rather than vice versa.
- Perfectly reasonable: done. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:24, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
I am indebted to you for the information that in Danish Great Expectations is Store forventninger. In exchange I offer you some Shakespeare: in Dutch, De vrolijke vrouwtjes van Windsor and in Welsh, Bid Wrth Eich Bodd.
That's my lot. What an interesting man – such a range of expertise! – Tim riley talk 08:29, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you as ever, Tim -- I think I've agreed with all of your points; replies inline above. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:24, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support. The article seems to me to meet all the FAC criteria. I much enjoyed reading and reviewing it. Tim riley talk 10:50, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): FunkMonk (talk), A Cynical Idealist (talk) 03:40, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
This is the first FAC about a dromaeosaurid (or "raptor") dinosaur in more than a decade, and this particular genus has recently become (in)famous as antagonist in a recent Jurassic World movie. Because their portrayal in that film is atrociously inaccurate, improving this article will hopefully set the record straight. FunkMonk (talk) 03:40, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
Support from Gog the Mild
[edit]Recusing to review.
- No date for Currie and Varricchio?
- Added. FunkMonk (talk) 20:09, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- No publisher location for Allison and Bottjer?
- Looks like this has been added. FunkMonk (talk) 20:23, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- "that lived during the Late Cretaceous of what is now Alberta, Canada". "of" → 'in'?
- Changed. FunkMonk (talk) 20:09, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- "restrain struggling prey while dismembering it with the mouth". "it" → 'them'?
- Why not, changed. FunkMonk (talk) 20:09, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- "indicate it survived later as well" doesn't really work for me. Why not just say 'indicate it survived for over 2 million years'?
- Done. FunkMonk (talk) 20:23, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- "It lived alongside a variety of dinosaurs". 1. Why single out dinosaurs? 2. "it is not known for certain if any of the animals from the Horsethief Member directly coexisted with it" seems to indicate that the lead is stronger than warrented.
- I just removed the sentence, goes without saying it lived alongside other animals... FunkMonk (talk) 05:08, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- "the fossil collector Wayne Marshall". Was this his occupation, or a hobby?
- The sources state he collected fossils while being employed in other fields, so that seems to be the case, but not sure how to source it. FunkMonk (talk) 20:09, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- 'the part-time fossil collector'?
- Went with that. FunkMonk (talk) 20:23, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- 'the part-time fossil collector'?
- The sources state he collected fossils while being employed in other fields, so that seems to be the case, but not sure how to source it. FunkMonk (talk) 20:09, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- "about 1 cm (0.39 in)". Looks a bit false precision to me.
- "serrations per 1 mm (0.039 in)." Similarly, and elsewhere.
- What would be the solution to these? FunkMonk (talk) 05:08, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Added the sigfig parameter here and elsewhere, as suggested below. FunkMonk (talk) 20:43, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- What would be the solution to these? FunkMonk (talk) 05:08, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- "from the Latin words atroci". Foreign language words (which are not proper nouns) should be in lang templates, not just italicised.
- Added. But what's the point of those templates? FunkMonk (talk) 00:46, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Template:Lang, "The purpose of this template is to indicate that a span of text belongs to a particular language. It often makes no visible changes to the text but can prompt web browsers to use a more appropriate font or screen readers to use a particular kind of pronunciation and so on."
- Added. But what's the point of those templates? FunkMonk (talk) 00:46, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- "rather than that the snout was shortened." I feel that 'rather than because the snout was shortened' makes for an easier read.
- Took your wording. FunkMonk (talk) 20:23, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Lead: "in the teeth being almost all the same size"; main article: "the teeth have different sizes but the same form".
- Ouch, I think that was left in from the original version, changed to "(the teeth being of similar size)". FunkMonk (talk) 00:46, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- " the clarity of the interrelationships recovered in their phylogenetic analyses." I "recovered" the best word to use here?
- "in a clade more derived than Saurornitholestinae". I don't think that a non-specialist audience will understand this.
- "but included more taxa which had been described in the interim." Maybe 'but included additional taxa which had been described in the interim'?
- "contains data for a wide number of coelurosaurian taxa". What is a "wide number"?
- "Atrociraptor has been consistently recovered as a member of Saurornitholestinae." I think you need to define "recovered" somewhere, or use a different expression.
- "and does not have a generally agreed-upon answer." I am (very) unsure what the question is that is unanswered.
- "then they may have been recent immigrants". More recent than what?
- "This hypothesis is supported by the possibility". Can a hypothesis be supported by a possibility. Optional: is there a better way of phrasing this?
- "ranged from using the claws for slashing or climbing up prey larger than themselves." If you use "ranged from" the options should be separated by 'to', not "or".
- Changed. FunkMonk (talk) 05:08, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- "a shift from using the feet instead of the hands for restraining prey". I'm confused. Should "from" be 'to'?~
- Oh yeah, changed. FunkMonk (talk) 05:08, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Horseshoe Canyon Formation, no links?
- It's linked in the intro and at first mention in the article body (discovery). Want one more further down? FunkMonk (talk) 20:09, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Iss "the Horsethief Member" the same as the Horsethief Sandstone?
- A Cynical Idealist is probably best at determining this. If that's the case, then alternative title should at least redirect, or become the new title of that article. Or it should perhaps be merged into the formation's article? FunkMonk (talk) 20:09, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- That's a different unit, they are not the same. Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:47, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- "a much wider geographic and temporal distribution than initially suggested." Suggested by whom, when and what was the suggestion?
- "corresponds to "poorly-drained" sediments rich with organic material. The sediments of the Horsetheif Member are composed primarily of coal, shales, sandstones, and mudstones. These sediments are rich with organic materials, which reflect a highly saturated environment". "... rich with organic material ... rich with organic materials ..."
- Caption: "Several dinosaurs known from the Horsethief Member of the Horseshoe Canyon Formation, where the first Atrociraptor specimen was found". Do you mean 'Several dinosaurs are known from the Horsethief Member of ..." or 'Conjectural reconstructions of several dinosaurs known from the Horsethief Member of ...'?
- Should we go with "hypothetical", as was mainly thrown around at the talk page last time? FunkMonk (talk) 20:09, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- That works for me. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:08, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Done. FunkMonk (talk) 20:23, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- That works for me. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:08, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Should we go with "hypothetical", as was mainly thrown around at the talk page last time? FunkMonk (talk) 20:09, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:02, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think the unexplained "tooth-taxon" is a bit much for a non-specialist reader.
- "The absence of these fossils from the older members does not necessarily mean that these taxa did not exist at that time, and may simply be reflective of the fossil bias which makes the preservation of small-bodied animals less likely." Is fine. "Remains of smaller animals are also common in the Horseshoe Canyon Formation. " Is fine. When the former is immediately followed by the latter, the word "also" reads oddly.
That's it from me. Another fine article. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:08, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've made the changes you suggested to the "Classification" and "Paleoecology" sections. Word choice was refined, repetition of phrases was removed, and technical language (recovered, derived, tooth-taxon, etc) has been removed or explained. As mentioned above, the "Horsethief Member" of the Horseshoe Canyon Formation (in Alberta) is unrelated to the "Horsethief Sandstone" (in Montana). "Horsethief" seems to just be a common name for landforms in western North America.
- Thank you for your input. @FunkMonk wrote the remainder of the article and I'll leave the changes you suggested to those other sections to their discretion. A Cynical Idealist (talk) 05:42, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've addressed "my" issues, so it seems everything else is done if ACI fixed the rest. FunkMonk (talk) 05:08, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Done, I added that to the beginning of the phylogeny section. A Cynical Idealist (talk) 22:07, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've addressed "my" issues, so it seems everything else is done if ACI fixed the rest. FunkMonk (talk) 05:08, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- "although they did directly comment on the placement of Atrociraptor in their analysis." Just checking that there isn't a "not" missing from this.
- "The diverse and abundant prey in the environments of the deep-snouted Atrociraptor and Deinonychus may have allowed for more specialised diets of large-bodied prey for them." I am not sure that the last two words are needed.
- Tried to rephrase, any better? "The diverse and abundant prey in the environments of Atrociraptor and Deinonychus may have allowed for more specialised diets of large-bodied prey for these deep-snouted dromaeosaurids." FunkMonk (talk) 19:08, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Assigned teeth from other parts of the formation indicate it survived for over 2 million years and in a wider geographic area." Wider than what? (You can't say wider than a single location.) Perhaps '... and in a wide geographic area'?
Gog the Mild (talk) 14:35, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- A Cynical Idealist is probably best at answering the last two points. FunkMonk (talk) 19:08, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- I already fixed the missing "not" and changed "wider" to "wide". All the other suggested changes to the classification and paleoecology sections have been implemented. A Cynical Idealist (talk) 23:40, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
HF - support
[edit]I'll try to review this sometime ovver the next week. Hog Farm Talk 18:44, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ping me when Gog's concerns have been addressed, and I'll start my review then. Hog Farm Talk 20:55, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think that's about now, Hog Farm. FunkMonk (talk) 05:08, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- "about 5 km (3.1 mi) from the Royal Tyrrell Museum of Palaeontology," - I'd argue that this is false precision as well. There's a way to round this off in the conversion template using the sigfig= parameter
- Added sigfig there and elsewhere. FunkMonk (talk) 20:43, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Atrociraptor mainly differs from its contemporary relatives Bambiraptor, Saurornitholestes, and Velociraptor in that its face is much deeper, and in that its maxillary teeth are more strongly inclined backwards than in most other dromaeosaurids, and in the teeth being almost all the same size" - this may need some rephrasing. The reader is later told that the maxillary teeth being inclined backwards is also a feature of Bambiraptor. The teeth being the same size is contrasted against Velociraptor. When I first read this quoted sentence, it read as if all of these these three features were the series of distinct things that set Atrociraptor apart from all these species. I don't know if there is a good way to clarify this, though
- These particular features are singled out in the intro because they were singled out in the description paper's abstract. About the teeth, it does say "more strongly inclined backwards than in most other dromaeosaurids", which leaves room for exceptions like Atrociraptor (as is done in the abstract). I tried to rephrase it like this (closer to the source), if it makes any difference: "Atrociraptor differs from its contemporary relatives in that its face is much deeper, and its teeth are more strongly inclined backwards than in most other dromaeosaurids, and are almost all the same size." FunkMonk (talk) 23:04, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- "and, unusually for dromaeosurids, there are no gaps left by shed teeth." - is this referring specifically to the absence of tooth loss in the holotype? I know this is a description of the holotype, but I'm concerned that the lay reader will try to apply this to the species as a whole, and wonder if the teeth regrew, or shifted after the loss of a tooth, etc, and lead to confusion
- Unfortunately the source doesn't specify, but since we know they would have shed their teeth, it's pretty certain they just mean this specimen, so I've added "in the holotype" for clarity. FunkMonk (talk) 20:43, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- " The maxillary teeth have larger serrations on their front cutting edge, 3-4.5 per mm, than behind, 5–8 per mm." - this doesn't seem right - p. 122 of the source has 3-4.5 on the posterior and 5-8 on the anterior; compare also to "The serrations at the front are smaller and more numerous, 5–8 per mm, than those behind, 3.5–5." when discussing the dentary teeth; I wouldn't expect the front/back characteristics of the serrations to be reversed on the maxillary and dentary teeth
- Yeah, swapped front and back at first mention. FunkMonk (talk) 23:04, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- "The uncertainty around the classification of Atrociraptor would not be resolved for some time." - has this actually been resolved as of 2024 (or ever will be, without further material discoveries?)
- I've removed this sentence because it doesn't really seem to reflect what's said by the sources, but is verging on editorialising. FunkMonk (talk) 20:43, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- " the fragmentary remains of a dromaeosaurid jaw from the Prince Creek Formation" - I think its necessary to indicate where the Prince Creek Formation is located
- Added "from Alaska". FunkMonk (talk) 20:43, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- In my opinion, the Evolutionary implications section needs either a closer tying to Atrociraptor specifically, or a bit of a trimming; as it currently stands this is more general material on the eudromaeosaurs. The title implies that Atrociraptor itself has particular evolutionary implications, but what these implications are on say the third paragraph remain unclear
- A Cynical Idealist is probably best at solving this one. FunkMonk (talk) 20:43, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think its best to just remove the whole section. The paleobiogeography of Atrociraptor is not really extricable from a general discussion of eudromaeosaurs. If that generality is a core issue with its inclusion as a section, then removal may be the best option. None of the listed sources really comment on Atrociraptor in isolation other than in a discussion of the taxonomic uncertainty and its possible implications on geographic and temporal dispersal. A Cynical Idealist (talk) 08:22, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hmmm, I think removing it all may be a bit too drastic, as while it may have been too detailed before, it did have relevance to how and when Atrociraptor appeared and its wider context. Most other dinosaur FAs go into these issues, so I think a trimming would have been enough. What do Hog Farm and Jens Lallensack think? FunkMonk (talk) 09:31, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- I would tend to agree that the section is not about Atrociraptor and does not need to be here. Maybe you could add something about it to the beginning of the phylogeny section, to provide some (very basic and brief) background about eudromaeosaurs before going into the classification details; for example, you could state there that velociraptorines are a primarily Asian group and saurornitholestines are North American, and that it is debated whether Eudromaeosaurs evolved in North America or Asia, and that faunal exchange might have happend in the early Maastrichtian via the Bering landbridge. I would furthermore suggest to move the deleted section to the Eudromaeosauria article, I think it fits there well. Jens Lallensack (talk) 09:50, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm currently close to finished with a very extensive rewrite of Eudromaeosauria, so don't worry, there will be ample discussion of it there. A Cynical Idealist (talk) 23:53, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- I agree the subject probably didn't need an entire section to begin with, but I think the following brief paragraph could be kept for context: "The pattern of eudromaeosaur dispersal is controversial among scientists. Some researchers have suggested that saurornitholestines are the earliest-diverging members of this group.[1] If that is the case, it suggests a North American origin for Eudromaeosauria.[2] However, if saurornitholestines are more closely related to velociraptorines, then they may have immigrated to North America from Asia closer to the end of the Cretaceous.[3]" FunkMonk (talk) 23:04, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm currently close to finished with a very extensive rewrite of Eudromaeosauria, so don't worry, there will be ample discussion of it there. A Cynical Idealist (talk) 23:53, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- I would tend to agree that the section is not about Atrociraptor and does not need to be here. Maybe you could add something about it to the beginning of the phylogeny section, to provide some (very basic and brief) background about eudromaeosaurs before going into the classification details; for example, you could state there that velociraptorines are a primarily Asian group and saurornitholestines are North American, and that it is debated whether Eudromaeosaurs evolved in North America or Asia, and that faunal exchange might have happend in the early Maastrichtian via the Bering landbridge. I would furthermore suggest to move the deleted section to the Eudromaeosauria article, I think it fits there well. Jens Lallensack (talk) 09:50, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hmmm, I think removing it all may be a bit too drastic, as while it may have been too detailed before, it did have relevance to how and when Atrociraptor appeared and its wider context. Most other dinosaur FAs go into these issues, so I think a trimming would have been enough. What do Hog Farm and Jens Lallensack think? FunkMonk (talk) 09:31, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Is there a particular reason why poorly-drained is in quotation marks?
- Removed. FunkMonk (talk) 20:43, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
I think that's it from me; I hope the above make sense. I'm personally a bit skeptical of the tendency of dinosaur research to assign new species/genus from extremely fragmentary remains; I suspect that in a hypothetical world in the far future where dogs have gone extinct and dog fossils are dug up that the German Shepherd and the chihuahua would be assigned as diferrent genera, but that is neither here nor there. Hog Farm Talk 22:56, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, in dinosaur palaeontology in particular there is a tendency to lean to the "splitting" side, where almost every species gets its own genus (though there are some notable exceptions). But since we don't have dinosaur DNA to properly conclude relations from, that may the most stable way to do it, since otherwise a species will often be moved to a new genus in every other paper where someone finds it more similar to something else. Taxonomy is a very arbitrary field in general... In this case, though, no one has moved it to another genus, which indicates it is actually considered distinct "enough" by most researchers. FunkMonk (talk) 20:43, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think the reduction of the implications section is much improved; I'm happy to support now. Hog Farm Talk 19:18, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Quick drive-by comment
[edit]The generic name is derived from the Latin words atroci, which means "savage", and raptor, "robber"
. For atroci read atrox. By convention when referring to Latin nouns or adjectives as words, we use the nominative singular form, which is how they are listed in modern dictionaries. Choliamb (talk) 14:49, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- We're aware, problem is that the source (the original description) says "Etymology: "Atroci" is a Latin word meaning savage, whereas "raptor" is Latin for robber". No other sources about this animal give a detailed etymology, so the question is how far we can veer off the source without going into WP:OR and WP:synth territory. Since the source seems to translate the component words with the form they appear in the name, it doesn't seem to be inaccurate as such, just unconventional. FunkMonk (talk) 16:00, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- And the generic name is not derived from atrox, so it would be misleading to say so. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:15, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Gog: The generic name is derived from atrox. The uninflected stem of the adjective atrox is atroc-, and for that reason atroc(i)- is the form used when attaching suffixes and forming compounds: cf. the Latin derivatives atrocitas and atrociter, or the English derivatives atrocious and atrocity. All of these are ultimately derived from atrox (check any etymological dictionary). For comparison, you can see the same pattern in the generic name of another therapod, Ornithomimus, the first part of which is derived from ὄρνις (ornis), the Greek word for bird. The uninflected stem of the noun ornis is ornith-, and for that reason ornith(o)- is the form that we use when creating compound words like Ornithomimus or Ornithopoda or ornithology. The WP articles for all of these words correctly state that they are derived from ornis, not ornitho-, because ornitho- has no independent existence; it is simply a form of ornis. The relationship between atrox and atroci- is exactly the same. Compounds begining with ornitho- are derived from ornis; compounds beginning with atroci- are derived from atrox.
- FunkMonk: Yes, I see your problem. If the source makes this mistake, and no other source gives the correct form, then I suppose your hands are tied by WP policy. A pity, but there it is. In any case, I've made my comment, so I'll be moving on now. Cheers, Choliamb (talk) 18:58, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I also think that we should change to atrox, and I personally do not see any WP:synth issue here; a statement that the name is derived from atrox is covered by the source, as there is no other way to interpret it. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:15, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Just popping back in because I thought of an even closer parallel: Velociraptor, which is derived from velox, not from veloci. Like atroci-, veloci- is just a form of velox and has no independent existence. These two adjectives, atrox and velox, follow exactly the same pattern, both in ancient Latin and in the modern Latin binomials derived from ancient roots. Choliamb (talk) 21:24, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't have a personal opinion on this, apart from the OR/synth concern. But if everyone here agrees it's not a case of that (even my co-nominator made the change at one point[11]), we'll change it. We'll begin fixing the other listed issues soon. FunkMonk (talk) 23:07, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I went ahead and changed the word, using the site linked in the first comment as citation, though I'm not sure if it's formatted correctly. FunkMonk (talk) 20:09, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't have a personal opinion on this, apart from the OR/synth concern. But if everyone here agrees it's not a case of that (even my co-nominator made the change at one point[11]), we'll change it. We'll begin fixing the other listed issues soon. FunkMonk (talk) 23:07, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Just popping back in because I thought of an even closer parallel: Velociraptor, which is derived from velox, not from veloci. Like atroci-, veloci- is just a form of velox and has no independent existence. These two adjectives, atrox and velox, follow exactly the same pattern, both in ancient Latin and in the modern Latin binomials derived from ancient roots. Choliamb (talk) 21:24, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I also think that we should change to atrox, and I personally do not see any WP:synth issue here; a statement that the name is derived from atrox is covered by the source, as there is no other way to interpret it. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:15, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- And the generic name is not derived from atrox, so it would be misleading to say so. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:15, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
Jens
[edit]- Only few comments from me, since I've already done the GA review.
- Now that we have a skeletal diagram, maybe we can produce an additional figure out of that: Crop out the head, and add labels of all the terms mentioned in the text? It would be so much more factual and more helpful than the Dromaeosaurus skull. Happy to help out with that if needed.
- Comparing with the published figures, I'm not sure it matches 100% to be used directly. But I'll tag the artist, Mettiina, about a closer skull only version. FunkMonk (talk) 20:23, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Because of this inclination, the tooth enamel at the base of the teeth is also inclined, whereas in Saurornitholestes, Dromaeosaurus, and other relatives where the teeth are oriented more vertically, the enamel is almost perpendicular to the longitudinal axes of the teeth – I am still not quite sure what this means. The enamel is the outer layer of the tooth, so if the tooth is inclined at any given point, the tooth must have the same inclination at that point. I do not really see what this adds, and you already discuss tooth inclination in great depth, so I would suggest to just remove this sentence, it is a bit too much imo.
- Removed. FunkMonk (talk) 00:46, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- A 2011 study by the palaeontologist Denver W. Fowler and colleagues found these ideas unlikely – You clearly give preference to this particular hypothesis while discarding the others. Do we have any secondary source that states that this hypothesis is now the favoured one? Or is this hypothesis of particular relevance for this genus? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 00:47, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- There is a much newer source on the topic [12], which also suggest a function of the claw in restraining smaller prey. So it indeed looks like this is now the favoured hypothesis, but that newer study should be incorporated I think. Jens Lallensack (talk) 00:59, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- The current text probably goes too much into that one paper, will see if I can make a more general rewrite reflecting more views more equally. FunkMonk (talk) 20:23, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Expanded a bit with the newer study, as you say, it agrees with the Fowler study, but also seems to suggest some additional functions. Also added an image from the paper, don't know if using both is too much in that section. FunkMonk (talk) 05:08, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- The current text probably goes too much into that one paper, will see if I can make a more general rewrite reflecting more views more equally. FunkMonk (talk) 20:23, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Cas Liber
[edit]Looking good...
- "Horsetheif" is written several times in body...this is a typo for "Horsethief", right?
- Also, in the Contemporary fauna and flora section, why are the zones in double quotes as looks odd...?
- In the (in my view redundant) See also section -
I can't see how one item is relevant as this critter was not in Jurassic Park(oops, missed that...in which case is it worth a few sentences somehow), and the Timeline of dromaeosaurid research is in the navbox at the bottom of the page
- Do you think it would be worth adding a short sentence under discovery saying it was in the movie? FunkMonk (talk) 07:54, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I added a mention, with the rather meta observation ""it's a very real dino with its own Wiki page and everything". FunkMonk (talk) 17:03, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Do you think it would be worth adding a short sentence under discovery saying it was in the movie? FunkMonk (talk) 07:54, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Fixed all these. A Cynical Idealist (talk) 23:59, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments from Mike Christie
[edit]- "The antorbital fenestra of Atrociraptor was relatively small compared to in other dromaeosaurids, with the portion in the maxilla taking up less than 43% its length": just checking there's no error here -- the dromaeosaurus skull diagram given shows an anterior fenestra apparently much smaller than this.
- Unless you mean the two small, unlabelled holes in the maxilla, yeah, it does seem like the antorbital fenestra is smaller here than in other reconstructions of Dromarosaurus.[13] So that could be a good reason to take up Jens Lallensack on the offer for making a new one? FunkMonk (talk) 07:54, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Will see what I can do tomorrow! Jens Lallensack (talk) 08:31, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, fig. 20 in this paper has a newer skull reconstruction of Atroci for reference:[14] FunkMonk (talk) 15:05, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- "neurovasular" typo for "neurovascular"?
- Yes, fixed. FunkMonk (talk) 17:03, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- "The maxilla contains eleven teeth (similar to in other dromaeosaurids)": seems an odd thing to say -- do all other dromaeosaurids have eleven teeth in the maxilla? If so I'd make it "as do other". If not, what does "similar" mean -- a number similar to eleven?
- The source only says "The number of tooth positions compares well with most other dromaeosaurids". So it's a bit vague, but I changed to "(comparable to most other dromaeosaurids)", if that's any better. FunkMonk (talk) 17:03, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- "which suggests that the change in climate forced the small theropod to either move elsewhere or become extinct": suggest "which suggests that either the change in climate forced the small theropod to move elsewhere or it became extinct".
- You have a pair of spaced em dashes near the end of the article; per MOS:DASH you have to pick either spaced en dashes or unspaced em dashes. You also have a couple of ranges that use em dashes, e.g. "71.5—69.6 million years": those should be spaced en dashes.
That's everything; all very minor. A fine article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:46, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think I fixed the dashes, and I made the fix to "which suggests that the climate...". A Cynical Idealist (talk) 23:59, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
AK
[edit]- "dromaeosaurids, and are almost" Comma unnecessary?
- "skull such as the part" to "skull, such as the part"
- Link member in the lead and body, it's a very niche term.
- "72.2 - 71.5" en-dash?
- "Since then, Marshall led" to "Since then, Marshall has led", although I'm not sure why this particular detail was mentioned.
- "Jurassic World Dominion, the director" to "Jurassic World Dominion, with the director"
- Why not quote the entire bit from Slashfilm ("might sound like another made-up hybrid dinosaur invented for the "Jurassic World" films...but it's a very real dino with its own Wiki page and everything") instead of loosely paraphrasing the first half?
- "relatively large prey, and to wound it" I'd have assumed prey would be plural. Also, comma unnecessary.
- "all dromaeosaurids, with their deep maxillae,"
- "velociraptorines, with their elongated snouts that allowed for rapid biting at the cost of power, perhaps"
- "become extinct" go extinct reads better to me, although this is just a preference
- "71.5 - 69.6" en-dash?
- "Albertonykus, in addition"
- Ref 7 should have the name of the site (which is actual Greek to me) instead of the url (logeion.uchicago.edu).
- Ref 9 (Sven 1997) looks like it has too large a page range, especially since it cites just one claim.
- ref 12 (Eberth et al. 2010) looks like it has too large a page range.
- ref 19 (Turner 2012) has too large a page range.
- ref 24 (Evans et al. 2013) has an incorrect page range (1041–9)
- ref 37 (Allison 2010) the page range looks too large for a sentence-long claim.
- That's all I have. AryKun (talk) 21:20, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): Nick-D (talk) 00:32, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
This article is about an interesting aspect of the 1982 Falklands War. While nuclear weapons were obviously not used, the British warships that were sent to the South Atlantic carried most of the country's nuclear depth bombs, mainly as it would have taken too long to have offloaded them. However, the British government and military did not seriously consider using nuclear weapons and the War Cabinet never wanted the depth bombs sent south. It was reported during and after the war that a British ballistic missile submarine had been sent to menace Argentina but historians have found no evidence that such a deployment took place. Interestingly, it has emerged in recent years that British Prime Minister Thatcher might have been willing to use nuclear weapons if the war had gone disastrously for her. Historians and international relations experts have also discussed why Argentina decided to invade British territory despite the UK being nuclear power and the broader implications of this.
I developed this article to set the record straight after a really bad article on this topic was developed and rightly deleted in May. It's turned out to be a much more complex and interesting topic than I expected, leading to a wide ranging article. The article was assessed as a GA in mid-June and passed a Military History Wikiproject A-class review in August. I have since further expanded and copy edited the article and am hopeful that it meets the FA criteria. Thank you in advance for your comments. Nick-D (talk) 00:32, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
Image review
- File:Falklands,_Campaign,_(Distances_to_bases)_1982.jpg: source link is dead. Ditto File:HMS_Repulse_(S23)_in_the_Firth_of_Clyde_c1979.jpg
- Fixed both Nick-D (talk) 07:51, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- File:Prime_Minister_Margaret_Thatcher.jpg is quite grainy - is there no better alternative? Nikkimaria (talk) 05:05, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- It's the best photo we have of her in 1982. There are some better photos for 1981 and 1983, but they're not significantly better. Thanks for these comments. Nick-D (talk) 07:51, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
UC
[edit]Very much enjoying the article, as I expected I would given the nominator. Three general pointers so far:
- I think the lead currently errs too much towards brevity rather than completeness -- remember that we should be content for readers to stop at the end of it and have picked up as much information as we really need to give them.
- Similarly, I think the prose is just slightly too simplistic in places -- it's very clear, but occasionally it almost reads like an introductory school-book that pulls some punches on detail and general polish.
- If we can quickly and easily give a piece of information that answers a reader's question, even if it's not strictly relevant (e.g. "who was that person? When did that happen?"), I think we should. Footnotes might help here, if you feel that the flow would be unduly interrupted.
I hope this is helpful. As ever, please do let me know where I've been unclear or unfair, and I'm very happy to disagree on matters of taste (which is most of this review) without any prejudice.
- The first sentence (sorry to start so early!) could do with a bit of thought. I don't really like "even though" as WP:WEASEL: most pilots never seriously consider using their ejection seat, even if they have one in the aircraft. Secondly, the word "initially" is slippery -- it could mean anything from "when they were built, years earlier" to "in the opening stages of the conflict".
- I've simplified this sentence and moved the material on the depth bombs to later in the lead. Nick-D (talk) 06:40, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher: titles in apposition like this, for politicians, are very American: BrE prefers the Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher or Margaret Thatcher, the Prime Minister.
- That's interesting: Australia follows the US usage then. Tweaked. Nick-D (talk) 06:40, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- The head of the British military: that was the Queen -- I think we mean the professional head, and I would give his title and name him as Terence Lewin. I'm surprised that we don't get the views (either here or later, except on a related issue) of any other military people -- did Woodward ever express a view, for example, or any of the ships' commanders?
- Tweaked. None of the sources discuss the views of other military commanders involved in the war other than the commander of the nuclear missile submarine that was alleged to have been deployed to be able to attack Argentina. I recently read Woodward's memoirs from cover to cover and he doesn't note this issue at all, despite providing a very detailed account of his forces operations. I suspect that this is the result of the secrecy around the deployment of British nuclear weapons. Nick-D (talk) 06:40, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- It has been alleged that a British ballistic missile submarine was sent to the South Atlantic to potentially attack Argentina. This has been denied by senior British government figures as well as the commander of the submarine in question: can we therefore name it as Resolution -- and be clearer that this was reported at the time, rather than just post facto?
- The British nuclear arsenal did not deter Argentina's invasion of the Falklands on 2 April 1982 due to the commitments the British government had made to not use these weapons.: Hm -- can we know the cause and effect here for sure -- is it impossible that the Argentines considered the British commitment to be unreliable, but also that (e. g.) the missiles wouldn't work, they would be able to intercept them, it was worth the risk, etc etc? Later, we suggest that they were more reassured that the superpowers would stop the British from launching nuclear weapons, which implies that they didn't think Britain's commitment meant all that much.
- I've tweaked the wording here. The sources all agree that the Argentines weren't at all worried about this issue. Nick-D (talk) 06:40, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Good change -- it was the 1–1 link between the two statements, rather than each of them individually, that was the issue. UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:59, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- The Falkland Islands is an archipelago in the South Atlantic Ocean and a British Overseas Territory. There has been a long-running sovereignty dispute over the islands between Argentina and the British government. : as it's now over forty years later, I would couch this in 1982 terms. Put another way, if the dispute gets settled tomorrow, we shouldn't have to change this sentence.
- Given that the dispute is still ongoing and the war didn't resolve it, I think that this wording is OK. It also helps to explain the post-war squabbling over whether the UK had stationed nuclear weapons in the Falklands. If the dispute is ever resolved, I'd be happy to update this! Nick-D (talk) 23:39, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- My issue is that, when you think about it, this material isn't actually relevant. It isn't important to what happened in 1982 that the Falklands are a BOT in 2024, or that there has been a long-running dispute in 2024 -- it matters what the status of that dispute was in 1982. I think we'd be on safer ground to talk about some of the key developments in Anglo-Argentine relations and the Falklands dispute in the decades preceding the war. UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:56, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've tweaked the wording a bit here. The history of the dispute isn't really relevant to this article: what I think is significant is to briefly indicate that there was a long running dispute (to help explain to readers why such an unlikely and now somewhat little known war took place) and that the dispute continues given it's relevant to the section of the article covering developments since the war. Nick-D (talk) 10:25, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- The British government decided to liberate the Falklands: consider retake as more neutral (from the Argentine perspective, they were de-liberating them).
- This campaign was very risky for the British and required the deployment of substantial military forces at a great distance from the UK.: a bit woolly, I think -- we probably should have said how far the Falklands were from the UK earlier, so "a great distance" is both vague and, in an ideal world, unnecessary. Similarly, "substantial military forces" -- by 2024 British standards, yes, but by almost anyone else's it was a pretty small operation, at least initially. Aren't military campaigns inherently risky, especially for the people taking part? Do we mean militarily risky (they might have lost) or politically? I think there's something here, but it would be worth recouching it in terms of what made this campaign more risky than others.
- I've tweaked the wording here to make it clearer: in short, the British forces weren't significantly superior to the Argentine forces, especially due to the distance the operation was conducted from the UK. Nick-D (talk) 11:12, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Numerically, perhaps, but the land forces at least were definitely superior in terms of training and equipment. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:36, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, but the air and naval forces were not and the sources agree, including those cited here, this made the war highly risky. Woodward also stressed how risky the campaign was in his memoirs on purely logistical grounds given that he wouldn't have been able to maintain his fleet off the Falklands during the winter. Nick-D (talk) 10:56, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- This made the UK the third country to deploy these weapons: after...? I know it's not particularly relevant, but if we're going to make readers ask the question, it seems fair to answer it given that we can do so very quickly.
- I've added that this was after the US and USSR. Nick-D (talk) 11:12, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- The Royal Navy's four ballistic missile submarines were equipped with 100 warheads fitted to standard Polaris missiles and 35 fitted to missiles that had been upgraded through the Chevaline programme.: a total of 100 or 100 each? MOS:FIGURES would like "four" in figures for consistency.
- 135 warheads in total. I've tweaked the wording here to hopefully clarify this. Nick-D (talk) 23:39, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Most of the American-owned warheads were assigned to British Army units in Germany.: I think a very brief comment on the British Army of the Rhine and what it was doing in Germany would be useful here.
- That seems outside the article's scope to be honest, but I've adjusted the wording to be clearer. Nick-D (talk) 23:39, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think it would hurt to explain that they were intended to be used against the Warsaw Pact in the event of a Soviet invasion of western Europe (or at least to deter that from happening), but not a major issue -- the current framing works. UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:58, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- It was legal for the UK to deploy nuclear weapons to other locations in the South Atlantic Ocean.: from my very limited reading on this topic, it's a tricky question as to whether a given breach of a treaty is technically illegal. Suggest "it would not have breached the treaty...".
- Nuclear powered ships: hyphenate as a compound modifier.
- Done. Thank you for these detailed and thoughtful comments. Nick-D (talk) 11:12, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
More to follow. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:42, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
A few more:
- the strong international norm against the use of nuclear weapons which had developed due to their devastating effects - often labelled the "nuclear taboo: MOS:DASH -- use either a spaced endash or an unspaced emdash here.
- recapture the islands by force: is there any other way to recapture some islands?
- Yes, the British could have blockaded them or similar to force the Argentinians to give them up. For instance, the British seriously considered landing troops on an isolated part of West Falkland and building a military airfield instead of attacking the main Argentine forces on East Falkland as part of a strategy to sustain a blockade and intensify diplomatic pressure on Argentina. Nick-D (talk) 10:22, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- That's still using force, as your wording (perhaps inadvertently) shows -- either it wouldn't have been recapturing them (as opposed to having them returned 'voluntarily'), or it would have been by force. However, if you want to differentiate what happened from e.g. a blockade, you could say by invasion or similar? UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:59, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Trimmed to save words given it doesn't affect the meaning here. Nick-D (talk) 05:41, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- That's still using force, as your wording (perhaps inadvertently) shows -- either it wouldn't have been recapturing them (as opposed to having them returned 'voluntarily'), or it would have been by force. However, if you want to differentiate what happened from e.g. a blockade, you could say by invasion or similar? UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:59, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, the British could have blockaded them or similar to force the Argentinians to give them up. For instance, the British seriously considered landing troops on an isolated part of West Falkland and building a military airfield instead of attacking the main Argentine forces on East Falkland as part of a strategy to sustain a blockade and intensify diplomatic pressure on Argentina. Nick-D (talk) 10:22, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sir Michael Quinlan, who had noted in a 2013 BBC interview that Thatcher had told him after the war...: MOS:SAID: noted endorses the factual accuracy of this, which we can't do -- stated or similar needed.
- 'surveillance rounds' or 'training rounds'. The 'surveillance rounds' : MOS:' is unclear on scare quotes, but generally doesn't like them. Suggest munitions termed "surveillance rounds" or "training rounds", which sits better with that guideline and MOS:WORDSASWORDS.
- While some of the nuclear depth bombs could have been offloaded from warships at Portsmouth, this could not be done covertly: why would it need to be done covertly -- anything more than the obvious not wanting to tell the enemy what you're doing?
- It was due to the British policy of not disclosing the whereabouts of nuclear weapons - the next para notes that this was a significant consideration at the time. I've added some material earlier in the article on this to help provide context. Nick-D (talk) 10:22, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- concerns among some senior Royal Navy officers: a little bit weasel-y -- can we be more precise as to who and how many, or is this all "I heard that some admirals were unhappy"? Might not be much we can do here.
- Freedman states that these concerns were held by "some admirals" but isn't more specific I'm afraid. I've tweaked the wording to be slightly more specific. Nick-D (talk) 10:51, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- If the issue was raised in Parliament, the government would have confirmed that nuclear weapons would not be used but not comment on whether the warships were carrying them.: suggest decided to confirm or similar -- we can't know for sure that they would have followed through with the plan.
- This reflects the wording in the source that "there would be an unequivocal affirmation that nuclear weapons would not be used in the present context" if it was raised in Parliament. I've tweaked the wording a bit here. Nick-D (talk) 10:51, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- a proposal made by Foreign Secretary Francis Pym: outside journalism, more usual in BrE was "the Foreign Secretary, Francis Pym".
- I think we should indicate the publisher of Proceedings in the citation (the US Naval Institute). Is it ever cited as Proceedings of the US Naval Institute?
- The United States Naval Institute Proceedings began in 1874 as The Papers and Proceedings of the United States Naval Institute, though "Papers and Proceedings" shortened to "Proceedings" by 1879. Some early issues were titled "The Record of the United States Naval Institute" even as the volumes containing them had "Proceedings" in the title instead. The title permuted to "United States Naval Institute Proceedings" in 1907. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 17:37, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- As Hawkeye7 notes, it's usually referred to as just Proceedings. I've added the publisher details. Nick-D (talk) 10:51, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- I read Hawkeye's comment as suggesting the opposite course of action -- it might be referred to in the field as Proceedings, but its actual title is United States Naval Institute Proceedings, and we should use that. In my own line of study, we have plenty of arcane journal abbreviations: open up any classical journal and you'll see BMCR, Arch. Eph., TPhS and so on, but per WP:NOTPAPER and WP:MTAU we spell them out in full so that they are accessible to readers outside the discipline. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:01, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- We have a lot of use here of the British official history of the war. I wouldn't go so far as to call that unreliable, but it's definitely not fully independent. Is there anything we can do to corroborate it from other work?
- The UK is one of the western countries where official historians are actually almost entirely independent of government and able to write about almost anything and reach conclusions independently. Consistent with this practice, the only restriction Freedman notes in the book's introduction is that he was limited in what he could write about on a few matters concerning intelligence - this restriction usually applies only to material on intelligence collection operations or practices that remain active. The book was published by an academic press and has been widely cited by other works on this issue as well as the Falklands War more broadly, including some that are critical of the British government's actions. All the reviews I've seen have been positive: I don't think that provisos would be needed unless multiple reviews have judged the book less than fully reliable or independent. Many thanks for these comments. Nick-D (talk) 10:51, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- The UK is one of the western countries where official historians are actually almost entirely independent of government and able to write about almost anything and reach conclusions independently: I'm not disagreeing, but would be interested in some reading on that topic -- I'm reminded of an interview where (I think) Andrew Marr protested that nobody at the BBC had ever told him which questions to ask, to be told that if they thought they needed to tell him, they wouldn't have picked him for the job in the first place. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:01, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- [15] is a useful brief overview of British official histories, and notes that while there are some concerns over the genre the standard in the UK these days is good. It describes Freedman's official history which this article cites as being "acclaimed". Nick-D (talk) 10:15, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- I know that's a blog, but I would definitely still take caution here -- it's good that we're not talking about works that are explicitly censored, but if the British government is choosing who writes the book and (indirectly) the sources to which they have access, we can't call the work fully independent. That doesn't mean we should throw it out altogether when it's known to be a good work of scholarship, but I would be looking for corroborating sources where possible. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:28, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- I already have checked every available reference, many of which cite Freedman. Hennessy and Jinks re-assessed some matters that Freedman considered and ended up largely agreeing with him (Hennessy is an expert on British nuclear weapons policies and deployments). The main discrepancy I found is in relation to Thatcher's possible actions as covered in the last two paras of the 'During the war' section, where I've sought to explain the different views and conclusions. These differences are largely due to Sir Michael Quinlan's revelations after the official history was published. The Argentinian Government also has a different interpretation of the Treaty of Tlatelolco from Freedman and other historians, and I've also sought to cover this. The 'British nuclear weapons policies' section is also an example of where I've provided accounts by different historians on an issue Freedman has covered. Nick-D (talk) 11:15, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- [15] is a useful brief overview of British official histories, and notes that while there are some concerns over the genre the standard in the UK these days is good. It describes Freedman's official history which this article cites as being "acclaimed". Nick-D (talk) 10:15, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- The UK is one of the western countries where official historians are actually almost entirely independent of government and able to write about almost anything and reach conclusions independently: I'm not disagreeing, but would be interested in some reading on that topic -- I'm reminded of an interview where (I think) Andrew Marr protested that nobody at the BBC had ever told him which questions to ask, to be told that if they thought they needed to tell him, they wouldn't have picked him for the job in the first place. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:01, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- The UK is one of the western countries where official historians are actually almost entirely independent of government and able to write about almost anything and reach conclusions independently. Consistent with this practice, the only restriction Freedman notes in the book's introduction is that he was limited in what he could write about on a few matters concerning intelligence - this restriction usually applies only to material on intelligence collection operations or practices that remain active. The book was published by an academic press and has been widely cited by other works on this issue as well as the Falklands War more broadly, including some that are critical of the British government's actions. All the reviews I've seen have been positive: I don't think that provisos would be needed unless multiple reviews have judged the book less than fully reliable or independent. Many thanks for these comments. Nick-D (talk) 10:51, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
A few more -- in general, where I haven't replied above, I'm more-or-less happy -- it's obvious that you've thought about the issues, usually before I have, and done your due diligence on them.
- There is no evidence to support claims that one of these submarines was sent to the South Atlantic.: I don't think we actually put it quite this strongly in the article, so I'm going to cry [citation needed] here. We've outlined a few good reasons to believe that it wasn't, and that Freedman couldn't find any in the archives, but neither of those are quite the same thing.
- Freedman states that he couldn't find any documentation of such a deployment and dismisses it as a result and Hennessy and Jinks reached the same conclusion, including after interviewing the relevant submarine captain and his commander. As such, I think that this wording is an accurate summary. Nick-D (talk) 11:35, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- It might be accurate, but it needs to be verifiable, too. "Archival evidence" and "evidence" are not the same thing, nor does the fact that one researcher could not find something demonstrate that it does not exist. More seriously, we've WP:SYNTHed our way from "here are two sources who say that X probably isn't true" to "no reason exists to believe that X is true", and that's not workable. We either need a less cautious source or a more cautious phrasing, I think.
- That's a good point: I've tweaked the wording here. Nick-D (talk) 10:42, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Better, but do either of our sources actually say "historians [in general, not just the present author] have found no evidence"? Either way, we need to cite that, as it isn't quite what we say and cite in the article. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:14, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've removed this as it was unnecessary and is covered elsewhere in the article. Nick-D (talk) 00:32, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- It might be accurate, but it needs to be verifiable, too. "Archival evidence" and "evidence" are not the same thing, nor does the fact that one researcher could not find something demonstrate that it does not exist. More seriously, we've WP:SYNTHed our way from "here are two sources who say that X probably isn't true" to "no reason exists to believe that X is true", and that's not workable. We either need a less cautious source or a more cautious phrasing, I think.
- Freedman states that he couldn't find any documentation of such a deployment and dismisses it as a result and Hennessy and Jinks reached the same conclusion, including after interviewing the relevant submarine captain and his commander. As such, I think that this wording is an accurate summary. Nick-D (talk) 11:35, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- they were all judged to be "safe and serviceable" following inspections after they arrived back in the UK: consider dropping the quotes per MOS:SCAREQUOTES.
- the conservative MP: needs a capital, as we mean the party, not (just) the state of mind.
- the Labour Party member of parliament Tam Dalyell who claimed to have learned this from an unnamed Conservative member of parliament: I would cut the Party for consistency and to fit normal usage.
- In 2005 a psychoanalyst who had regularly met with French President François Mitterrand during the time of the Falklands War claimed that he had told her that Thatcher had threatened: literally, a lot of he-said, she-said here -- I must admit to being dubious. More importantly, the Guardian doesn't vouch for this claim, and nobody else in the quality press seems to have even picked it up. I would be inclined to cut this, given the circumstances -- WP:EXTRAORDINARY applies, I think, as this is a fairly explosive (sorry) claim resting on pretty flimsy evidence. I know we don't endorse it, but by reporting it, we're giving it some credence as a possibility, a "some people say" etc.
- I agree that it appears to be nonsense, but Hennessy and Jinks considered the claim worth discussing and evaluating in their book, so I think that this should be included. Both these authors are experts on the history of the British nuclear weapons arsenal. There's also a long-running myth that France was recalcitrant in helping the UK counter Exocet missiles during the Falklands War, which presumably this claim relates to (in reality the French government provided the British with considerable assistance to stop Argentina getting more of these missiles during the war). Nick-D (talk) 00:12, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- noting that it is not clear what 'codes' for Exocet missiles she was referring to: double quote needed, but see above.
- Fixed Nick-D (talk) 00:12, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm going to need a citation that that Vulcan took part in the Falklands War. Suggest giving its number.
- I've added a reference. The aircraft's serial number would be a bit confusing if not explained in this context, and I'd prefer to omit it given it's not relevant to the subject of the article (the photo is to show what a Vulcan looks like). Nick-D (talk) 11:35, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- nuclear weapons-capable: endash, not hyphen, needed here (MOS:DASH)
- Officials dismissed the wartime speculation over this issue: officials on which side(s)?
- Argentine: added Nick-D (talk) 11:35, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- This led to Australian authorities declining permission for Invincible to be repaired in a dry dock during 1983.: some areas of Australia are nuclear-free zones; was this one of them?
- All the sources are oddly vague about the details here, but it would have almost certainly have been the Captain Cook Dry Dock in Sydney (as this is the only large naval dry dock in the country), which I think was a nuclear free zone. Nick-D (talk) 11:35, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I think it was -- worth adding, as otherwise it's a bit confusing as to why Australia would have had such an issue (readers might know that New Zealand doesn't allow nuclear weapons in its territorial waters, but Australia has never had such a prohibition). UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:50, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- From a bit of digging, it was actually due to the national government's policy - I've added a bit of material here. Nick-D (talk) 11:01, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I think it was -- worth adding, as otherwise it's a bit confusing as to why Australia would have had such an issue (readers might know that New Zealand doesn't allow nuclear weapons in its territorial waters, but Australia has never had such a prohibition). UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:50, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- All the sources are oddly vague about the details here, but it would have almost certainly have been the Captain Cook Dry Dock in Sydney (as this is the only large naval dry dock in the country), which I think was a nuclear free zone. Nick-D (talk) 11:35, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- T.V. Paul: we normally put a space after both initials.
- Fixed Nick-D (talk) 00:12, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- Consider MOS:CONFORMing "nonnuclear" to "non-nuclear", in line with usage elsewhere in the article.
- Royal United Services Institute fellow Jeremy Stocker : false title.
- Fixed Nick-D (talk) 11:22, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- In 1989 the British international relations expert: two things here. Firstly, he's the first person we've listed as an expert, which seems odd -- weren't all the other admirals, scientists, historians and so on experts? Secondly and more importantly, he was also a Labour/SDP MP, and there was a pretty serious debate going on in those circles about nuclear disarmament -- it's not as if he was a detached commentator on the matter.
- Tweaked here. The section is about people's views, so whether they're detached or not doesn't seem particularly relevant as long as readers know where they're coming from. An interesting feature of the debate over nuclear weapons, especially during the Cold War, is the cross-overs between politics and technical expertise on the topic. Nick-D (talk) 11:22, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed - no problem with including him, but readers need to be able to place the quotation in proper context. UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:48, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- He noted that...}: MOS:SAID -- this isn't a statement of fact. I'm most likely to go for a run if it's sunny, but it's still possible that I might stay in on a nice day if I'm feeling a bit lazy.
- Tweaked Nick-D (talk) 11:22, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Luard gets a lot of airtime in his area of the article, and is double-cited with the official history: where does that second citation come in here?
- I've removed the third sentence now that this has been covered earlier in the article. The second reference is to an earlier work by Freedman where he discussed Luard's views, not the official history. Nick-D (talk) 11:22, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ward Wilson is likewise not exactly detached: he runs an anti-nuclear pressure group.
- Added. Nick-D (talk) 11:22, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- "A Critical Examination of "the Myth of Nuclear Deterrence"".: single quotes within double quotes.
- Tweaked Nick-D (talk) 23:13, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Make sure you capitalise e.g. Sheffield in the titles of cited works.
- Do you have examples where I've missed this? Sheffield is consistently capitalised, except for a url. Nick-D (talk) 23:13, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Title parameter of note 56. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:38, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing this, sorry - it's capitalised in the title. Nick-D (talk) 10:21, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oops -- my brainfart -- I meant italicised! Now note 57; don't know whether that was an edit or my misread. UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:39, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing this, sorry - it's capitalised in the title. Nick-D (talk) 10:21, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Under British command and control procedures, the Prime Minister is the only person who can authorise the use of nuclear weapons: this is cited to a 2024 page -- can we confirm that this was also the case in 1982 (it was, but our source doesn't strictly prove that).
- I've added a source that discusses the arrangements in place at the time. Nick-D (talk) 23:13, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- The titles of cited works should be capitalised consistently, at least within source types (that is, all books the same way, all journals the same way...)
- I've used the capitalisation used in the sources, which is inconsistent. Nick-D (talk) 11:22, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- MOS:CONFORMTITLE advises the opposite approach. Is there a particular reason to divert from it here? UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:47, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think that guideline provides bad advice here. It seems unjustified to fiddle with the titles of works to deviate from what the author or the journal/book's editor has selected. As it's only a guideline, I'd prefer to stick with the original capitalisation. Nick-D (talk) 00:12, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- I disagree, but you're right that it's only a guideline, and I'm not at the point of opposing over something which makes very little difference to readers. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:35, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think that guideline provides bad advice here. It seems unjustified to fiddle with the titles of works to deviate from what the author or the journal/book's editor has selected. As it's only a guideline, I'd prefer to stick with the original capitalisation. Nick-D (talk) 00:12, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
I think that's my lot for now -- as ever, please do let me know where I've been unclear or unfair, and take (almost) all comments as suggestions rather than hard demands. UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:20, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- @UndercoverClassicist: Many thanks for this review - I might have now responded to all your comments. Sorry for this being a bit delayed: I've been a bit unwell. Nick-D (talk) 00:32, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support: I maintain my opinion that MOS:CONFORMTITLE should be applied, but I don't think that represents a major problem that should hold up promotion. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:37, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Many thanks for this excellent review. Nick-D (talk) 10:21, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Gog the Mild
[edit]Placeholder. Please ping ping me once UC starts to run out of steam. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:09, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Gog the Mild: most of what I've got left is pretty small stuff, so don't wait on my account. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:51, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
Recusing to review.
- "defended only by a small party of Royal Marines." Is it possible to give a number?
- Added - it was 70 Nick-D (talk) 05:51, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- "The Argentine forces there were defeated and surrendered on 14 June 1982 following a series of fierce battles." IMO this would read better if it were recast into chronological order.
- It already is. The idea of this section is to give readers an understanding of the nature of the war rather than its exact chronology given the issues the article covers are more relevant to what the war was like than its course (most of the key decisions covered in the article took place before there was any fighting, for instance). Our article on the war covers the chronology well. Nick-D (talk) 05:51, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- What I mean is something like 'Following a series of fierce battles the Argentine forces there were defeated and surrendered on 14 June 1982.' Thus putting the three things referred to in chronological order.
- "The size of this force peaked". Is "force" the right word? 'stockpile', 'arsenal'?
- Good pick up - I've tweaked this sentence and I think it reads much better as a result. Nick-D (talk) 05:51, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- " A total of 100 warheads fitted to standard Polaris missiles and 35 fitted to missiles that had been upgraded through the Chevaline programme were carried by the Royal Navy's four ballistic missile submarines." I don't see how this is supported by the source cited.
- The numbers for 1982 are in the table on page 70 and the details of the warheads and how they were deployed are in the table on page 71. Nick-D (talk) 06:43, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- "In addition, the British Armed Forces also had". You don't need both "In addition" and "also".
- Fixed Nick-D (talk) 05:51, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- "the WE.177A nuclear depth bombs nuclear depth bombs".
- Whoops! Fixed. Nick-D (talk) 05:51, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- "but had still not ratified it at the time of the Falklands War." Suggest deleting "still".
- I think that this is OK - it reads a bit weirdly without the 'still' given the amount of time the sentence covers. Nick-D (talk) 06:43, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- "the South Atlantic as well as their territorial waters." Maybe 'the South Atlantic or their territorial waters'?
- "The nuclear depth bombs on board Brilliant were transferred to RFA Fort Austin". Perhaps a brief explanation of what type and size of ship Fort Austin was.
- "The weapons on board Invincible were transferred to Fort Austin on 2–3 June." Where, approximately, did this take place?
- To the east of the Falklands; added Nick-D (talk) 07:40, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Fort Austin returned to the UK on 29 June." Left the fleet to return starting on this date, or arrived back in the UK on this date? Is it known which port she arrived at?
- Also tweaked per the above to clarify this. Nick-D (talk) 06:43, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Similarly for Resource.
- "Seven of the containers holding active and inert nuclear weapons were damaged". Is the total number of bombs they contained known?
- The source doesn't say and no other work covers this. Nick-D (talk) 05:51, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- "The surveillance rounds were inert WE.177As". What was it that caused them to be "inert"? Did they contain nuclear material?
- No - I've added material explaining this in more detail. Thanks for this pick up. Nick-D (talk) 10:10, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- "The Conservative MP was likely the backbencher Alan Clark." If the article is written in UK English then "likely" → 'probably'.
- Fixed Nick-D (talk) 00:34, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- "an unnamed Conservative member of parliament. The Conservative MP ... suggested that the conservative MP who told Dalyell". Conservative or conservative?
- Fixed as UC also spotted this mistake Nick-D (talk) 00:34, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- "who had been the Flag Officer Submarines." Why the upper-case initial letters?
- It was the title of the job (the Royal Navy had a bunch of similarly-awkward titles at this time). Nick-D (talk) 00:34, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- "In these letters he had observed". Delete "had".
- "He also said though that the revelations had not harmed the relationship between Argentina and the UK." Delete "though".
- Most of the last paragraph of "Nuclear weapons policies" either duplicates material in "Commentary on nuclear deterrence" or would fit better into that section.
- Are you referring to the para that starts with "The Argentine government was aware"? This covers the facts of the Argentinian Government's decision making, of which there isn't any disagreement over. The "Commentary on nuclear deterrence" section then covers various commentators and experts views. I'd prefer to retain this structure to keep the material about what happened separate from the material covering views of why this happened. I've trimmed the "Commentary on nuclear deterrence" though to avoid a bit of duplication - I think that this also helps clarify the structure of this section, with the first para discussing views on why the UK didn't use nuclear weapons in these particular circumstances and the second para discussing views on whether the non-use means that nuclear weapons will not be used in any circumstances. Nick-D (talk) 10:10, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- "failing to coerce a nation with a weaker military." The source given does not mention Argentina, or any country, having a weaker military.
- Tweaked to specify they were referring to a non-nuclear country. Nick-D (talk) 10:10, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- The source given still does not mention Argentina, or any country, having a weaker military.
- "Argentina was believed to have three air-launched variants of these missiles remaining". Is that a total of three missiles, or an unknown number of missiles split between three variants?
- Three missiles - I've tweaked the wording here. Nick-D (talk) 08:27, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- "if the aircraft carriers were struck by Argentine Exocet missiles". Could there be a brief in line explanation of what an "Exocet missile" is.
- Yep: I've added that they were anti-ship missiles. Nick-D (talk) 08:27, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Classy work. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:47, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Gog the Mild: Thanks a lot for this review. I think that I might have responded to all your comments. Nick-D (talk) 10:10, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Three comebacks above. Gog the Mild (talk) 10:49, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
Source review
[edit]Hi Nick-D, my comments:
- Add archive URLs for
Refs #2, #5, #11, #23, #28, #30, #49-50, #52, #54, #61; Freedman 1989, Iacono 2022, Polmar 2007? Or you could just run the IA bot and it will archive all these for you. The sites hosting these sources will never go down in all probability, but their URLs may change and prudence never hurts anyways.
- Link to Hans M. Kristensen in the biblio, and David Leigh & Ian Cobain in the refs as done for other authors?
- Will be doing spotchecks tomorrow. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 18:45, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Nick-D, spot checks below:
- #11, #18, #38, #46, #58, #63, #70, #79: all ok.
- Do you not wish to archive the URLs as suggested above?
- I wasn't able to get the bot to work and haven't gotten up to doing this manually yet. Nick-D (talk) 08:31, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hi, I ran the bot myself, I hope that is alright. The source review is a pass now, cheers. Matarisvan (talk) 18:51, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Many thanks for this - I've been a bit unwell for the last week and wasn't looking forward to doing this manually. Thank you also for this review. Nick-D (talk) 00:15, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for your kind words @Nick-D. If it's not too much and you've recovered, it would be a great help if you could comment at a PR I've up and running, linked here. Your MILHIST knowledge would be very helpful for improving the article. Thanks in advance, and hope you're feeling better now Matarisvan (talk) 07:38, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- No worries. I'll look in on that PR on the weekend. Nick-D (talk) 10:18, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Many thanks for this - I've been a bit unwell for the last week and wasn't looking forward to doing this manually. Thank you also for this review. Nick-D (talk) 00:15, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Nick-D, spot checks below:
Support from Hawkeye7
[edit]I think what you have done with this article is awe-inspiring! I note that 5% of the content has been added this month. A few comments:
- "Prior to the Falklands War the British government had also provided a commitment not to use its nuclear weapons against countries that did not possess these weapons." My understanding is that the UK gave an undertaking that it "will not use, or threaten to use, nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear weapon state party to the NPT" or "in material breach of the NPT" (emphasis mine). Argentina had not signed the NPT. Consider adding that it did not do so until 1995. The reader might infer too much into the fact that Argentina did not have nuclear weapons; at the time, but there was grave concern about Argentina's nuclear weapons program. [16]
- This is covered by the second para of the 'Pre-war' section. The sources note that while technically Argentina wasn't a non-nuclear power the UK treated it as such. I've added some extra material on Argentina; the sources don't note that the British had any concern over its nuclear program during the war. Nick-D (talk) 06:08, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- The reader might also infer that this was some solemn undertaking by the UK government, but it modified it in 1990 in response to the threat of chemical and biological weapons from Iraq, so the current stance is that "Security assurances extended to other countries by the UK are now subject to review 'if the future threat of weapons of mass destruction, such as chemical and biological capabilities, or emerging technologies that could have a comparable impact, makes it necessary". [17]
- The article covers what the relevant British policy was at the time of the war. I've added material to the lead on the relevant international norms (it's striking that the Cold War era British military didn't even consider using these weapons). Nick-D (talk) 06:08, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Change the single quotes around "nuclear taboo" to double quotes?
- "conventional British forces could not be deployed at such a distance from the UK". There was a tiny garrison and an ice patrol vessel on station. Suggest "sufficient conventional forces to recapture the islands by force".
Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:03, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Done. Thanks a lot for this review. Nick-D (talk) 06:08, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
Comment from Noswall59
[edit]Just a very quick comment as I don't have time to review this in full. The article (very interesting!) mentions Thatcher's purported views on using nuclear weapons in the war, citing Hennessy and Jinks (2016) and Quinlan's interview (2013). Have you checked Charles Moore's biography of Thatcher? I think volume 1 looked at the Falklands War. Cheers, —Noswall59 (talk) 12:53, 11 August 2024 (UTC).
- That's a good suggestion - I'll see if I can find a copy. Nick-D (talk) 11:11, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
Harry
[edit]Ooh, really interesting subject! Placeholder for now. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:29, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 04:25, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Somewhere in a room in Seattle Center is a large map of the world, festooned with yellow pins. They tell the story of how a Seattle indie music station turned into a national, even international, audio institution. KEXP-FM (or KEXP, as you'll see it anywhere that isn't pedantic about call sign suffixes) started as KCMU-FM, the 10-watt campus radio station of the University of Washington, in 1972, but it was in the right place at the right time to become one of the standard-bearers for alternative music in a city that broke artists like Kurt Cobain and Soundgarden. After a turbulent early 1990s that included a listener boycott, the university's decision to split management from its public radio station and put it under the computing department, of all places, served as a critical technological catalyst for what it became later after partnering with the Experience Music Project in 2001: an independently owned and operated powerhouse with FM signals in Seattle and San Francisco, studios in Seattle that are a regular stop for touring acts and double as a community space, a massive streaming fanbase (of which I am now a part as a direct result of this project), and a prominent feature of the indie media landscape.
While I have brought five television stations to FA, this is a massive moment for radio station coverage on the English Wikipedia, as there has not been a new FA in radio stations (some 25,000-plus titles in total) since WINC (AM) in 2014. A significant thanks goes out to Maiacosis, who wrote about 15 percent of this page including programming descriptions and provided some of the images used in this article. I also appreciate Lee Vilenski for his 2022 GA review and the Phoenix Suns's gnarly blowout in Game 7 of the 2022 Western Conference semifinals for spurring me to distract myself with a major writing project. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 04:25, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Image review
- File:KEXP_logo_(black_on_orange).svg is confusing me. The source field says orange was added to match the Instagram picture, but the Instagram picture has orange on the bars, not the background; none of the versions linked have an orange background. Is this actually a version used by them, or did we make it up? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:42, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Odd indeed. They don't use a hard background with it, but that is their brand orange. I decided to strip the orange and leave a skin invert class to satisfy the original concern about darkmode visibility, Nikkimaria. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 05:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments from Mike Christie
[edit]- "... the station began to grow into one with an international listener base ...": suggest "... began to acquire an ...".
- Done
- "began formulating a plan to create a second UW station, one that would be run by students": suggest shortening to "began planning to create a second UW station that would be run by students".
- Done
- "Noonan had come from San Francisco, where he was aware of other college stations": do you mean that there were multiple student-run radio stations in San Francisco?
- Yes. The original quote is, “There were student activities and protests and all these things going on, and none of that information was getting to the students; it just wasn’t being processed. The only thing the UW had was The Daily, and I had worked at some stations back in California that were interviewing people from the Black Panthers; people who were very active in movements back in those days,” he says. “I felt that the students needed an outlet, a voice.”
- "While there were so few listeners in 1975 that UW administrators ordered a programming overhaul, by 1981, the station was starting to become more adventurous musically". The use of "while" implies there's a logical connection between the two halves of the sentence, but there doesn't appear to be -- "so few listeners" is not in opposition to "adventurous musically" in any way. And the only example of adventurousness given is airing new wave music; this doesn't seem an adventurous thing to do in 1981, when, if my memory is not leading me astray, New Wave was a major (and mainstream) commercial force. I was in the UK at the time, though -- maybe it meant something different in the US? In the UK it meant bands like Elvis Costello and Talking Heads. From some comments further down the article about KJET dropping their alternative music format it seems you're using New Wave to mean alternative but that would not have been the nomenclature back then.
- This gets gnarly. The New Wave label was contemporary for the period, for sure (some of the stuff I went back and was able to make into public clippings emphasizes this). It seems new wave evolved into alternative? I could use guidance here.
- "KZAM ... changed due to low ratings": I think this means that KZAM dropped New Wave music but I think it should be clearer.
- Reworded for clarity
- Suggest dropping the sentence "A power boost also came" and starting a new paragraph at that point instead.
- Done
- "... the beginning of stereo broadcasts for the first time ...": "beginning" is redundant with "for the first time".
- Done
- "commercial competition in the form of KJET which had adopted the format in 1982": I don't know what "the format" refers to here.
- Clarified
- "foundation of Sub Pop": suggest "foundation of record label Sub Pop".
- Done
- "Through the UW": is this normal usage for UW? One would never use "the" in this sort of construction with UT, say, or UCLA. There are more instances of "the UW" later in the article.
- It's all over their website. There is no specific entry for it, but there are lots of sentences on the UW brand guide with it: It shows that the UW is authoritative, intentional and thoughtful, referring specifically to the UW.
- "it remains on KEXP's schedule" needs an "as of".
- Done
- "two shows hosted by black DJs were added to daytime slots that were exclusively held by Richards, Cheryl Waters, and Kevin Cole": suggest "had been held", if I have the intended meaning correct. What does "exclusively" mean?
- Tried to reword.
- Re the analysis by Tableau Software, giving the "broadened" statement first is a bit confusing -- I assume the station broadened its mix in response to the analysis? In which case reversing the order of the clauses would be easier on the reader.
- Done.
- You might consider an internal link from the first text mention of the Gathering Space to the section about it lower in the article.
- Done.
- "The live room holds special significance as it serves as the backdrop for the station's video podcasts". What would be lost if this were shortened to "The live room serves as the backdrop for ..."?
- Nothing at all. (This is the section Maiacosis contributed)
- What is a "correlating fluid simulation"?
- What are "activated festoon lights"?
- Reworded this area to be a little less...dense.
- "The Gathering Space has always included a coffee shop early since its inception". Triply redundant; how about "The Gathering Space has included a coffee shop since its inception"?
- Done
-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:44, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Mike Christie: Should have responded to everything. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 17:22, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Did you mean to keep "formulating" or just miss it? Other than that everything looks good except for the New Wave/alternate genre name issue. I am sure I will be supporting, but I'd like to see that sorted out first. Perhaps try posting at one of the music WikiProjects -- I think WP:ALBUMS is pretty well attended. What can you actually tell from your sources? Do they make it clear that the format hasn't changed in decades and also that it was called New Wave once (and I think it needs the caps) and alternative now? If we're going to connect dots across decades where the sources uses different names we need to be able to prove that they are the same thing. Or could we do something that simply reflects the sources such as (and of course I'm making this up): "histories of the station comment that it hasn't changed its format for X years, though it now describes it as alternative rock, instead of New Wave, as it was known in the early 1980s". Or whatever. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:33, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Mike Christie Outright missed "formulating" — my eyes glazed over. I found a source [18] (not linked in article; shadow library) and added it as a footnote. It hints at how nebulous format labeling really was for this. You'll also see "new music" in the early years. The term alternative had not come into use in 1981–82 for this music. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 19:12, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Good find. I think that does it. Support. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:53, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Mike Christie Outright missed "formulating" — my eyes glazed over. I found a source [18] (not linked in article; shadow library) and added it as a footnote. It hints at how nebulous format labeling really was for this. You'll also see "new music" in the early years. The term alternative had not come into use in 1981–82 for this music. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 19:12, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Did you mean to keep "formulating" or just miss it? Other than that everything looks good except for the New Wave/alternate genre name issue. I am sure I will be supporting, but I'd like to see that sorted out first. Perhaps try posting at one of the music WikiProjects -- I think WP:ALBUMS is pretty well attended. What can you actually tell from your sources? Do they make it clear that the format hasn't changed in decades and also that it was called New Wave once (and I think it needs the caps) and alternative now? If we're going to connect dots across decades where the sources uses different names we need to be able to prove that they are the same thing. Or could we do something that simply reflects the sources such as (and of course I'm making this up): "histories of the station comment that it hasn't changed its format for X years, though it now describes it as alternative rock, instead of New Wave, as it was known in the early 1980s". Or whatever. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:33, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments from Neutralhomer
[edit]- As the editor on the WINC (AM) article, I'd be remiss if I didn't give my 2 cents to this FAC, which will finally add a second FAC to the WPRS project.
- "By 1992, ten years after becoming listener-supported, KCMU's budget had grown from $20,000 to $180,000. In addition to the two technical improvements in the 1980s, it had added more paid staffers and listeners." Would it be possible to add a "in 2024 dollars" part to the budget line? I've seen it done on other articles, kinda connects it to today.
- Added as a footnote.
- I noticed that there isn't anything mentioned about KEXP being the official "soundtrack" station for the Seattle Kraken. A couple sources for that.
- Already there, last paragraph, "Move to Seattle Center".
- Just a minor quibble, in the Championing the "Seattle sound" section, I don't see anything about Alice in Chains. Is there anything that you or Maiacosis could find on them and KEXP to tie it all together with the rest of the Seattle grunge bands? Yes, I am an AiC fan. :)
- I did a special search and did not come up with anything.
- Other than that, I see no real issues. It'll be good to finally have another article on the list with WINC. :) I pass the torch. Good work to all involved. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 20:38, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Neutralhomer: Responded to all pending issues. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 01:07, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Apologizes on the slow reply, work got in the way. No worries on the Alice in Chains one. That wasn't a real requirement for me, just a something I'd like to have seen. :) Beyond that, all changes made, this has my full Support - Neutralhomer • Talk • 23:23, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
Source review by Generalissima
[edit]As I used to live right next to KEXP, I feel an obligation to look over the sources here.
- Sources look consistently formatted.
- There's not a title for ref. 31 (Sexton, Paul; Tilli, Robbert (May 31, 1997)), causing a CS1 error.
- Before I go do a spot check, I wanted to note that there is a 2020 academic source on KEXP: Brick, Mortar, and Screen: Networked Digital Media, Popular Music, and the Reinvention of the Public Radio Station by Christopher Cwynar. https://doi.org/10.1080/19376529.2020.1738438. I would advise incorporating this into the article, as a specialist academic article is just about the best thing to incorporate into a subject like this to ensure that coverage is truly comprehensive. This would probably require a shortened footnote style of some sort for ease of use.
Let me know when you've gotten the Cwynar source incorporated in, Sammi Brie, and I'll do a source review of the rest. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 01:57, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Generalissima Journals do not normally factor into my work, but KEXP is not a normal project. There were some promising tangents in this one, and I added not one but three references off of that. I only cited Cwynar three times, so I didn't feel the need to dip into an sfn (like I did with Bridge at WBPX-TV). Also fixed a source I failed to clip and the missed title on the very recently added Sexton/Tilli source. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 02:39, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
@Sammi Brie: So sorry this took a while.
- 7A: I think you're missing a cite somewhere here? This doesn't talk about KUOW-FM at all. Everything after "As a result" checks out though.
- 8A: Yep. That's the date alright.
- 17: Checks out.
- 28: Checks out, in that little corner.
- 42a: Accurate summation of what Cwynar said here.
- 49a & b: You cite this twice in a row, I don't think the first 49a cite is needed.
- 46: Checks out, and interesting.
- 68: Yep.
- 76: Checks out.
- 87: Checks out.
- 89: Also good.
Not much to say other those two errors I found. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 05:13, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Generalissima The first issue led me not only to references to fill that void but to some additional material I got to incorporate in the first two paragraphs. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 06:33, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ok, nice! Everything here looks good. Support on source review and spot check. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 14:19, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments from Eem dik doun in toene
[edit]I will take a look in the coming days. Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 17:57, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- "specializing in alternative and indie rock programmed by its disc jockeys" ==> in the infobox, a lot more genres are listed than only these two, and in the body of the article there are these sentences: "Since 2020, the station has also made major changes to its programming and DJ lineup, and it airs specialty shows throughout the week to diversify from its traditional focus on alternative and indie music. As of April 2024, KEXP's specialty shows include the following:". I think it's an idea to use a newer reference in the first sentence of the lede than the one used right now (from 2018). Maybe it's also an idea to alter the sentence as, as I read it, the station isn't only specializing in alternative and indie rock right now.
- This is a very good point. I am only a recent KEXP listener (not pre-2020), but yeah, the daytime variety mix is not just alt rock. (This also varies, of course, by DJ: see, for instance, Larry Mizell Jr.'s shows.) I think fewer genres listed in the infobox will help.
- "By this time, the debate was ameliorated" ==> as a non-native English speaker, I had to look up what "ameliorated" means. Maybe you can use a more common term?
- Changes made here.
- "1 and 6 am" ==> 1 and 6 a.m. (as you've used a.m. throughout the article).
- Probably a relic from a general formatting script that did this too often.
- Some minor comments from me. Interesting and well-written article! Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 09:25, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Responded, Eem dik doun in toene. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 04:38, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support - Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 07:08, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Responded, Eem dik doun in toene. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 04:38, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
voorts
[edit]comments tk. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:22, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Years would be helpful in the subsection headers in the history section, e.g., 1971–1987: Early years as KCMU. I also notice there's some overlap. For example, the aforementioned subsection goes up to 1987, but the next subsection begins in the mid-1980s. Any way to rearrange this to make it more chronological?
- Reorganized some material (and removed one item I realized had become increasingly irrelevant as the article went on).
- I think this should be removed. Unlike alums who went into the music industry, this seems less relevant: A KCMU alumnus of this period, who began with the station after KZAM folded, went onto a career in public office: Dow Constantine, later a Washington state legislator and King County Executive, whose future wife worked as a volunteer DJ.
- Excised. I've kept it preserved on the talk page in case Constantine becomes governor (he refused to run in 2024).
- The Experience Music Project—now known as the - add (EMP) after Experience Music Project.
- Done
- UW engineers invented CD players that could retrieve song metadata from the internet in order to build a real-time playlist - wouldn't they already have metadata if they're playing off of CDs? I'm a bit confused by this.
- The reference is rather unambiguous here: University of Washington engineers invented CD players that could connect to the Web to retrieve song and band information, which could then be transfered to a real-time playlist at www.kexp.org.
- ; the next year, the station started offering a rolling archive of its last two weeks of programming, branching out to offer an archive of past in-studio performances - remove the semicolon and make this its own sentence. I'm also not sure what "branching out" means in this context. Can you rephrase?
- Done.
- Web streaming was emerging as a major force for listenership around the world. When?
- This is in the same early 2000s period indicated at the top of the paragraph.
- The Tacoma simulcast agreement was wound down in March 2006 as being too costly ahead of EMP ceasing to underwrite KEXP's losses, though KEXP did increase its power to its present 4,700 watts that year. The fact that KEXP was experiencing losses just comes out of nowhere in the middle of this sentence with no context. This can be fixed be reorganizing the paragraph to start with their financial troubles (e.g., almost failing to make payroll => this occurring).
- Reorganized. Great idea.
@Sammi Brie: That's all for now. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:37, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Voorts: Done. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 21:05, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nice work. Support on prose. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:52, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
Older nominations
[edit]- Nominator(s): Wehwalt (talk) 21:55, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
This article is about... an almost forgotten election for an almost forgotten office. Yet interesting both for the winner, the former viceroy of India, Lord Curzon, and for the fact that the two runners up actually tied in the next election, and an obscure means of breaking the tie had to be invoked. Enjoy.Wehwalt (talk) 21:55, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
Image review
[edit]- Lead images are quite small and difficult to see
- I've replaced the image of Ashtown with a portrait shot which may help here.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:31, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- File:Bird_notes_and_news_(1912)_(14562015579).jpg: is a more specific tag available?
- I've added some and tried to find an individual photographer without luck.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:31, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- File:Baron_Ashtown.jpeg: per the UK tag, please specify in the image description the research you have carried out to find who the author was. Ditto File:Lord_Farnham.jpeg.
- Done and also for the new Ashtown image.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:31, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
Nikkimaria (talk) 05:10, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
Llewee comments and support
[edit]Hello Wehwalt, I am going to make a few suggestions for this nomination.--Llewee (talk) 17:08, 8 August 2024 (UTC) Background
- A brief explanation of what a United Kingdom peer was and how it was a separate category from a Irish peer would be useful in the background section. I think a brief explanation of what the house of Lords is might be helpful as well.
- I've added something along those lines, at least drawing the distinction between UK peers and Irish peers.
- "This made it inconvenient for Irish peers to vote, and some did not." - Was this because they felt uncomfortable swearing an oath of allegiance to the British state or just for practical reasons?
- It was inconvenient for practical reasons. Most IRPs were Unionist and had no objection to swearing an oath to the British crown. It was just inconvenient for practical reasons. There were cases of Irish JPs traveling to England and in one case to Saint Petersburg to administer the oath in the contested 1825 IRP election.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:55, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Elections for Irish representative peers lapsed..." — What does this paragraph about events after 1922 have to do with an election in 1908? If it is going to included at all I would suggest moving it to aftermath.
- I think it is part of the background to explain why IRPs disappeared. I work from the assumption that anyone chancing on this article will never have heard of them.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:55, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ok that's understandable--Llewee (talk) 22:17, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think it is part of the background to explain why IRPs disappeared. I work from the assumption that anyone chancing on this article will never have heard of them.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:55, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
Candidates and campaign
- "threw himself off a fourth-storey balcony at his Paris hotel" — this sounds like an oddly flippant tone to me, maybe just say "jumped off a..."
- Changed to "jumped".
- "who had been suffering from illness, was killed immediately" — I would suggest taking out the clause about an illness, bluntly I don't think that much matters when you have fallen out of a high window. Also "died" probably works better than "killed" in this instance.
- Suicide is a touchy subject on Wikipedia; even though he is long dead, I would rather put in information that explains the action. He was definitely having issues; they had set someone to watch him, which he evaded. How about "fatally injured"?
- Fatally injured should be fine. The grammar of that sentence feels quite awkward, could it be reorganised so his illness is introduced first and then his death. (e.g Francis Browne, 4th Baron Kilmaine, an Irish representative peer since 1890, was mentally unwell. On 9 November 1907, he jumped from a fourth-storey balcony at his Paris hotel and was fatally injured.--Llewee (talk) 22:14, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- The newspapers were circumspect in discussing his illness, the one I'm using for a source says he was suffering from insomnia. Let's just stick to the bare essential that he had died.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:10, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Suicide is a touchy subject on Wikipedia; even though he is long dead, I would rather put in information that explains the action. He was definitely having issues; they had set someone to watch him, which he evaded. How about "fatally injured"?
- "Writs were subsequently issued in the election for a successor as representative peer" — Shouldn't "in the" be "for an"?
- It could go either way but "for an election for a successor" sounds kinda odd.
- "(who had actually been elected an Irish representative peer in 1905)" — Did that mean he couldn't be a contender?
- Since he had a seat for life, there was no point in his running. The press made a mistake.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:55, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- "(the last ever to be created)" — I'm not sure this is particularly relevant but if it is going to be included then clarify "before Irish independence in 1922".
- Since the Irish peerage still exits even if IRPs no longer do, it would still be possible for one to be created. Therefore, if I said before 1922, that begs the question of after.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:55, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ok, that is fine--Llewee (talk) 22:14, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Since the Irish peerage still exits even if IRPs no longer do, it would still be possible for one to be created. Therefore, if I said before 1922, that begs the question of after.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:55, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- "appropriate title as he took up his position as viceroy" — Clarify (possibly in a footnote) that peers were given the title of Lord which was prestigious.
- I've added a source to stress he did not want to go to India as Mr Curzon. It doesn't actually say that it is a prestigious title but perhaps it is close enough.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:43, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- "he found that his health would not permit him to seek a return to the Commons" — I think this could worded more bluntly "he was too unwell to campaign for reelection to the commons"
- I'm not sure. Curzon certainly lived a very active remaining 17 years of his life, during which time he came close to being prime minister. I'd rather not rephrase in that way. He had back trouble and he was certainly devastated by the recent death of his wife Mary, but I haven't been able to identify a physical ailment.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:55, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- That's understandable. It just struck me as slightly odd that he was well enough to be a Peer but not well enough to be an MP.--Llewee (talk) 22:00, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- In which case, perhaps 'felt' instead of "found"? Gog the Mild (talk) 12:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:35, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure. Curzon certainly lived a very active remaining 17 years of his life, during which time he came close to being prime minister. I'd rather not rephrase in that way. He had back trouble and he was certainly devastated by the recent death of his wife Mary, but I haven't been able to identify a physical ailment.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:55, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- "considered it undesirable that a recent viceroy fight for a parliamentary seat" — Why was this?
- He considered it undignified that a former high representative of the King-Emperor scrap for votes. I've added something.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:04, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- " the prime minister, Arthur Balfour, opposed this, and soon after, resigned. The new prime minister, Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman, also refused Curzon a United Kingdom peerage" — Why did these prime ministers oppose him receiving a peerage?
- Because Curzon differed on Indian policy with the Secretary of State for India, William St John Brodrick, which led to his resignation as Viceroy, and Brodrick put the kibosh on the peerage with both Edward and Balfour. When Curzon appealed to the new PM, Campbell-Bannerman, citing precedent that an honour for the returning viceroy was not a political matter (Balfour [and Curzon] was a Conservative and a Unionist and C-B was a Liberal), C-B hemmed and hawed made vague promises but eventually said there was opposition in his party to doing it and he wasn't going to. Curzon got his earldom in the Coronation Honours of 1911, after the deaths of both Edward and C-B. All of which is too much detail in my view.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:43, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe you could just say (perhaps in a footnote) that he was from a different party and disagreed with the government on India policy.--Llewee (talk) 21:53, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Because Curzon differed on Indian policy with the Secretary of State for India, William St John Brodrick, which led to his resignation as Viceroy, and Brodrick put the kibosh on the peerage with both Edward and Balfour. When Curzon appealed to the new PM, Campbell-Bannerman, citing precedent that an honour for the returning viceroy was not a political matter (Balfour [and Curzon] was a Conservative and a Unionist and C-B was a Liberal), C-B hemmed and hawed made vague promises but eventually said there was opposition in his party to doing it and he wasn't going to. Curzon got his earldom in the Coronation Honours of 1911, after the deaths of both Edward and C-B. All of which is too much detail in my view.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:43, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- "look with favour on the only way he could see to re-enter public life." — This is a bit non-neutral, maybe just say "support his campaign".
- It's not being said with Wikipedia's voice but as a paraphrase of what Curzon wrote.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:43, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- "with considerable satisfaction" — this sounds odd to me, maybe say "with approval"
- I'm trying to stick as close to the source as possible. It says "In Unionist circles here the candidature of Lord Curzon as a representative peer for Ireland is regarded with the highest satisfaction". I don't think approval is the same thing.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:52, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- It feels like a slightly quaint term to me, but it's not a major issue.--Llewee (talk) 21:53, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm trying to stick as close to the source as possible. It says "In Unionist circles here the candidature of Lord Curzon as a representative peer for Ireland is regarded with the highest satisfaction". I don't think approval is the same thing.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:52, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Curzon was opposed for the seat" — I think it would be clearer to say "some opposed Curzon's candidacy".
- Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:35, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- "They therefore saw no reason to diminish the Irish representation in Westminster during Curzon's lifetime to accommodate an Englishman." — I think a more neutral way of wording this would be "They felt this would in effect reduce the Irish representation in Westminster for the rest of Curzon's lifetime."
- I don't know about feeling it, it would. Curzon wasn't Irish and normally the IRPs were elected from among Irish residents. I've rephrased somewhat, look it over.
- "He had a contentious relationship with his Irish tenantry" — I feel more information could be added here, why was there a boycott against him?
- Added.
- "but considered Curzon's candidacy hard on peers" — I think changing "hard" to "unfair" would sound more formal.
- Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:35, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- "wrote to three candidates, including Curzon," — Weren't there only three candidates in the race?
- Lord de Vesci apparently had some designs on the seat. He got the 1909 vacancy, he might have been one of the three. We don't know what was meant.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:52, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- "since his "happy release from that country", he had ceased to vote" — perhaps add a footnote say he had left Ireland in X year to take up Y position or wherever he'd gone
- I assume he sold his Irish lands, but what he meant would be rather speculative.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:04, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- "for Irish representative peer" — Shouldn't it be "peers" rather than "peer"?
- Yes. Good point.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:35, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- "in the political wilderness" — this could be worded more bluntly (e.g out of politics)
- " The Kerry News reported that the former prime minister, Lord Palmerston..." — I'm not sure what this sentence has got to do with the election.
- Palmerston (Henry John Temple, 3rd Viscount Palmerston) was an Irish peer who had a seat in the House of Commons. The point of the discussion was that Palmerston seems to have feared that the Torys would elect him a representative peer and send him against his will to the House of Lords, and so did not claim the right to vote for representative peer following the argument that was used against Curzon that you had to be have claimed and had upheld the right to vote for IRP in order to be elected an IRP. Of course that argument did not prevail against Curzon. Possibly Palmerston was taking no chances.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:06, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
Election
- "like the one later that year in November" — This clause referencing another election which isn't the focus of the page isn't really necessary.
- Since that election involved two of the candidates from this one, its worth noting that it still attracted a considerable turnout even without Curzon's participation.
- "The Irish Times was confident that Curzon would be seated, but stated that..." — I'd say change "but" to "while" because the quote doesn't contradict the first part.
- There's sort of an implicit contradiction, because the clause is meant to say that even if Curzon was not seated, he will still have received a considerable honour. But I've changed to "and".
- "though it required that the peers voting in an election for Irish representative peers have claimed a right to vote" — change "have" to "had"
- I think "had" is correct. I could be persuaded otherwise.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:35, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
Aftermath
- "has the distinction of being" — change this to "was"
- Was is ambiguous. The books are now closed on the IRPs and Curzon was the only one ever elected who did not live in Ireland, but if I said "was", the reader might wonder if that was true as of 1908 or is that still true. I've changed to "is".
- I'm not going to get back to this until Friday or possibly the weekend. I just answered the ones I felt I could easily answer. The rest will follow--Wehwalt (talk) 22:06, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- All done now. Proceeding to deal with Gog's, then the IR.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:35, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Llewee, are we good?--Wehwalt (talk) 20:30, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Llewee, I've added that footnote.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:07, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Wehwalt, Ok it seems good to go--Llewee (talk) 12:00, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
Support from Gog the Mild
[edit]Recusing to review.
- "Background", first sentence: You don't give, nor is it possible to calculate, the size of the electorate. It can be implied from "A total of 134 ballots were sent to eligible peers" in the next section, but IMO it would be helpful to explicitly state it at the end of this paragraph.
- Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:09, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- "to fill a vacancy among the 28 Irish representative peers at that time elected to the British House of Lords". Something like 'to fill a vacancy among the 28 Irish representative peers at that time elected to the British House of Lords from there ranks by the 134 Irish peers' might help a reader to grasp more rapidly what this is about.
- Included. It's Irish peers eligible to vote. Remember Curzon was not at the time eligible to vote.
- "and that Ashtown had gained the most votes among those so eligible." I read this as Ashtown gaining the most votes among those eligible to vote. Is it possible to rephrase to clarify?.
- I tried to avoid a repetition, but I've spelt it out.
- " but Farnham was chosen to fill the next vacancy." Perhaps add '... also in 1908'?
- "one house of the British Parliament". It seems confusing to refer to the Parliament of the United Kingdom as the British Parliament. Given that Britain can be considered a component of the state the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland it seems an unnecessary complication.
- "signed by two Lords Temporal". Why the upper-case initial letters?
- No idea. Done.
- "Lord Chancellor would instruct the Lord Chancellor of Ireland to have the Clerk of the Crown and Hanaper conduct an election". Similarly.
- Ditto.
- "returnable 20 January 1908" → 'returnable by 20 January 1908'?
- No. The writ is returnable, not the ballots. I'm pretty sure that's the proper legal language
- "who had actually been elected an Irish representative peer in 1905". I am not sure that "actually" adds anything. Perhaps just delete, or replace with 'already'?
- " He had accepted an Irish peerage (the last ever to be created), to give him the title of "Baron Curzon" or "Lord Curzon" as he took up his position as viceroy", Perhaps ' He had accepted an Irish peerage (the last ever to be created) in 1898, to give him the title of "Baron Curzon" or "Lord Curzon" as he took up his position as viceroy'?
- Link commoner.
- "including replacing local labourers with Scottish replacement". Is it possible to avoid using "replacing" and "replacement" within six words?
- "though this could not be proved." Perhaps 'though this was never proved'?
- "The M. P. for Liverpool Scotland". Assuming this is written in UKvar, member of parliament is abbreviated to MP.
- "The January 1908 election, like the one later that year in November, attracted a high turnout from the voters." Is the number of votes cast known?
- No.
Gog the Mild (talk) 13:35, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- If I haven't specifically replied, I've just gone ahead and done it.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:09, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
SC Interesting article – I'd quite forgotten the constitutional position regarding Irish peer elections. Just a couple of very small points from me:
- The Malcomson quote refers to the "conservative party": I think—in line with MOS:CONFORM—this should be "Conservative Party"
- "Lentaigne traveled to London": I think it likely he travelled to London
I hope these help. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 09:50, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, all done.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:20, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 17:24, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments Support from KJP1
[edit]Wehwalt - hope you are keeping well. And what a wonderfully obscure topic (see below)! Some comments/suggestions from me.
- Lead
- Given the topic's obscurity - I doubt one reader in a thousand will have heard of the Irish Representative Peers (IRPs)! - I think the lead needs a brief explanation of the wider context. I accept that you have it in Background, and that there is a link, but I think a short para. in the Lead, probably the second, could explain; their creation - the Acts of Union; their purpose - Irish representation in the UK Parliament after the abolition of the Irish Parliament; and their, oddly small, constituency - fewer than 150 electing 28. I think the third and fourth para.s could be combined to allow for a new second to cover this.
- I will add something on the Acts of Union 1800 in the background section and likely a sentence of summary in the lead.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:51, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- That's done now.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:04, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Curzon, despite a minimal connection with Ireland" - that "minimal" connection being....? I assume it's his Irish peerage, given that he'd never set foot in Ireland, and didn't own land there. You mention the peerage in the next sentence. I wonder if the nature of the minimal connection could be made explicit. Perhaps something like - "Curzon contested the election as a means of returning to parliament after being denied a United Kingdom peerage by the prime minister, Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman. His connection to Ireland was minimal; born in Derbyshire, the eldest son of an English peer, he held no land in Ireland and his association was limited to the Irish peerage he had been granted in 1898 on his appointment as Viceroy of India. This slender connection sparked opposition, and his late entry into the race also worked against him. Moreover, he had never asked the House of Lords to affirm his right to vote in Irish representative peer elections, a requirement for participation as a voter, which led some to argue that he was ineligible to stand as a candidate."
- I don't know that he owned no land in Ireland, I'm not sure any source I have (and I looked through the relevant bits in four bios of Curzon) actually says that. I've rephrased somewhat, leading with the fact he was an Englishman.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:08, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Background
- "nor would promotion to a peerage of the United Kingdom end his tenure as representative peer" - "nor would promotion to a peerage of the United Kingdom end his tenure as a representative peer"?
- Fair enough
- "Each of the eligible voters would receive a ballot in duplicate by post with a space for the name of the peer whom the voter desired to elect. The ballot was to be signed" - do the sources say what they did with the second copy? Keep it?
- One copy was kept at the Crown Office in Dublin (and destroyed by fire in the Four Courts fire of 1922), the other went with the writ and return to the House of Lords.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:02, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- There's an example from the Victorian era of a blank ballot on the National Archives of Ireland site, by the way.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:04, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- "the voter's seal affixed, and returned to the Crown Office in Dublin" - link seal and Crown Office?
- OK.
- "the right to vote in elections for Irish representative peer" - "the right to vote in elections for Irish representative peers"?
- Not sure. Peer sounds correct to me.
- "following the death of the last surviving Irish representative peer, Lord Kilmorey, who died in 1961," - perhaps just, "following the death of the last surviving Irish representative peer Lord Kilmorey in 1961,"?
- OK.
- Candidates and campaign
- "Ivo Bligh, 8th Earl of Darnley (who had already been elected an Irish representative peer in 1905)" - I don't follow this. As Darnley was already an IRP, and, as you explain above, only death or dishonour terminated this, how was he again eligible? Were the press just wrong? The first source explains why he wasn't in the Lords as an English peer, which is fine, but he was as an IRP from 1905, so why would he be eligible twice?
- He wasn't eligible. The press made a mistake, as best I can tell. I've tweaked it as far as I can go. There wasn't any follow up on this that I could see.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:02, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- "...Curzon to be given an earldom, the prime minister, Arthur Balfour, opposed this" - given that this was unusual, going against the general precedent, and that the king specifically asked for it to happen, I wonder whether a brief explanation as to why Balfour opposed an earldom would be helpful, perhaps in a footnote. Kenneth Young covers it quite extensively in his Balfour. In essence, Balfour was concerned over the timing, following on from Curzon's resignation and his publicly-expressed opposition to government policy; "it would never do so to time this public recognition of his services as to suggest that it was in the remotest degree connected to his action in the Curzon-Kitchener dispute. In that dispute he was in the wrong. It would be absurd to take a step which would be universally interpreted as meaning I believed him to be in the right." (Balfour to Lord Knollys 7 October 1905) (Young, p=242).
- I'm reluctant to over focus on this. This article really isn't about Curzon's resignation. The thing is, Balfour never honoured him, though I don't know if he did a resignation honours.
- I said implement or ignore, so I won’t press the point, but, for me, it is pretty central. The only reason Curzon stood as an IRP was to regain a public platform. He didn’t have one because first Balfour, and then C-B, had denied him the, almost obligatory, post-Viceregal peerage. For me, the reader would benefit from an explanation as to why. KJP1 (talk) 20:48, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Fair enough. I'll write something up using the source you mention and insert it tomorrow.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:13, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've used your source (which is available online).--Wehwalt (talk) 14:04, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Fair enough. I'll write something up using the source you mention and insert it tomorrow.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:13, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- I said implement or ignore, so I won’t press the point, but, for me, it is pretty central. The only reason Curzon stood as an IRP was to regain a public platform. He didn’t have one because first Balfour, and then C-B, had denied him the, almost obligatory, post-Viceregal peerage. For me, the reader would benefit from an explanation as to why. KJP1 (talk) 20:48, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- "he felt that his health would not permit him to seek a return to the Commons, and that King Edward VII considered that it marred the dignity of the viceregal office" - I'm not sure what the second that is doing?
- Deleted.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:51, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- "asked that the voters look with favour on the only way he could see to re-enter public life" - perhaps, "asked that the voters look with favour on his candidacy as the only route by which he could re-enter public life"?
- Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:13, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- "The Manchester Guardian thought it appropriate that Curzon had been backed by Abercorn and Londonderry" - is "appropriate" quite right here? The Guardian is being sarcastic and I wonder whether something like "telling" would better convey that?
- Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:51, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- "because Curzon was the heir to a British title, and when he inherited that title, he would not vacate his place as Irish representative peer. They therefore did not want to diminish the Irish representation in Westminster during Curzon's lifetime." - would something like this be a little simpler?, "because Curzon, as heir to a British title, would retain his status as an Irish representative peer on his succession, thereby diminishing Irish representation at Westminster."?
- I've kept the lifetime, otherwise adopted.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:04, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- "the explosion of a crude bomb" - I appreciate the source does talk of a "crude" bomb, but am not sure what it adds. It's presumably something like "makeshift"?
- There's a fair amount of discussion of this in the press, which comes to no real conclusion and seems very colored by viewpoint. I've deleted "crude" and let it go that.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:04, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- "few if any were Irish nationalists, which 80 percent of Irish constituencies were represented by" - aside from the placing of the preposition, I don't think one would expect many Irish peers at this time to be nationalists. But of Home Rulers, there were a few, David Cannadine suggests at most half a dozen. {The Decline and Fall of the British Aristocracy p=533}. I wonder if something like this would be a bit clearer, "and very few supported Home Rule for Ireland, the official position of the Irish Parliamentary Party which held over 80 percent of the Irish constituencies."?
- I'm presenting O'Connor's perspective here. I'm not sure we need to get into it at the level you suggest, just presenting the perspective of people who thought the whole election was a farce.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:13, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Election
- "like the 2nd duke of Abercorn" - it may be that the source has it, and I think MoS suggests it, but the lower-case d looks odd, especially for a specific Duke.
- Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:04, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Aftermath
- "were placed in an ordinary goblet" - to me, it looks like a wine glass and you use "glass" above. Would "wine glass" do? The blue-link for goblet is rather ecclesiastical.
- There was a good deal of discussion of this. It was a piece of stemmed glassware, such as ordinarily was used by their lordships for satisfying thirst, not necessarily with water. I think that unless I'm missing something, wine glass is fine. (I personally prefer stemless glassware but most of the time drink from stemmed.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:04, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Hope these are of some use. Obviously, they are mainly suggestions, which can be considered and enacted, or ignored, as you think fit. KJP1 (talk) 09:38, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- OK, KJP1, all done. All's well here except I need the ministrations of the medical men more than in the days of my youth. Thanks for the comments.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:04, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Wehwalt - I appreciate your accommodating me on Curzon's resignation/Balfour, C-B's unwillingness to elevate. Looking over the other comments, I see I wasn't the only one to raise it, and I think your amendments address the issue very well. As for the other comments, again, I appreciate the responses and am very pleased to Support. Glad you are keeping well, with necessary interventions! I address my own ailments through self-medication with pinot noir, à la Riley, but I understand he's currently hors de combat with a plaster-cast, so he is probably administering it through a straw. All the very best. KJP1 (talk) 20:40, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for that, and have sent a note to Tim expressing my best wishes. Wehwalt (talk) 20:49, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Wehwalt - I appreciate your accommodating me on Curzon's resignation/Balfour, C-B's unwillingness to elevate. Looking over the other comments, I see I wasn't the only one to raise it, and I think your amendments address the issue very well. As for the other comments, again, I appreciate the responses and am very pleased to Support. Glad you are keeping well, with necessary interventions! I address my own ailments through self-medication with pinot noir, à la Riley, but I understand he's currently hors de combat with a plaster-cast, so he is probably administering it through a straw. All the very best. KJP1 (talk) 20:40, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- OK, KJP1, all done. All's well here except I need the ministrations of the medical men more than in the days of my youth. Thanks for the comments.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:04, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Source review - PASS
[edit]- Just wondering why News Letter and Freeman's Journal have places of publication, but the other newspapers don't – is there a reason?
- Yes, since there is no description of the location in the name, and these are relatively obscure Irish journals.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:45, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- For Anson, I'm not sure you need to have that it's in the UK – none of the other sources have a country.
- It's not part of the criteria (and I don't take it into account), but it may be worth archiving the websites? (You have for one, but not the others)
- I'm not adept at it, and would prefer that other people with bots do it.
- SchroCat (talk) 14:09, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:45, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments Support from Tim riley
[edit]Fascinating stuff. As an Englishman of Irish descent I'm grateful to Wehwalt for a glimpse into Anglo-Irish parliamentary shenanigans. A few quibbles, some drawing on the 1917 edition of Erskine May.
- Piping
- Queen Victoria but King Edward VII – I know those are the titles of the WP articles, but it looks a bit odd here to have the female title in blue and the male one in black.
- Background
- "consisted mainly of several hundred hereditary peers of the United Kingdom": I'm not sure that's quite right: there were peers of England, of Scotland, of Great Britain and of the United Kingdom, and I don't think those in the first three categories were absorbed into the fourth.(Erskine May, pp. 6–12). The representative peer arrangements for Ireland followed the precedent of those for Scottish representative peers (sixteen of them) following the 1707 Act of Union (EM, p. 9).
- Anson, at page 190, if I read him correctly, does describe England's peerage as merging into the peerage of GB, and then UK. I've spelled it out in a footnote. The Irish and Scottish representative peers weren't quite the same, the Scots only served for one parliament and the voting qualifications were different.
- Afterthought: I think perhaps you could skirt round the matter by saying "consisted mainly of several hundred British hereditary peers", which isn't incorrect but avoids the distinctions between the four categories. Tim riley talk 10:37, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- "along with 28 Irish representative peers and certain others, such as some Anglican archbishops and bishops" – the certain others being law lords (of whom there were four between 1876 and 1913 – EM, pp. 11–12 ), and the Lords Spiritual were the two archbishops and the twenty-four senior diocesan bishops (EM, p. 6)
- Responding to the above two, I've put all that in a footnote. I have exact statistics as of 1909 but I don't want to put up too much of a wall between the reader and the meat of the article.
- Candidates and campaign
- "Commander-in-Chief, India, General Lord Herbert Kitchener" – this gives his title wrongly: unless Kitchener was the younger son of a duke or marquess, which he wasn't, his given name doesn't get into his title. He was General Lord Kitchener, but you could get away with calling him General Lord (Herbert) Kitchener.
- Ah, I wasn't sure on that point.
- "… objected because Curzon, as heir to a British title …" – this is the first we've heard of this heirdom, and it might be helpful to flesh it out slightly on the lines of "…objected because Curzon was heir to the British barony of Scarsdale and would retain his status..."
- I've simply introduced Curzon as Baron Scarsdale's son and heir.
- Sentence beginning "Freeman's Journal of Dublin pointed out ..." – I have three minor problems with this:
- The article headlined "Lord Curzon's Pretentions" is actually headed "Lord Curzon's Pretensions"
- The article thus headed is on page 6 of Freeman's Journal for 2 January 1908 and not on p. 16.
- The article doesn't say that Curzon's father was 76 years old: it refers to him (wrongly) as "seventy-seven years old"
- Errors fixed, 76 changed, alas, to elderly.
That's all I can find to carp about. Tim riley talk 10:24, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the review. All done.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:23, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
Support. The article seems to me to meet all the FAC criteria and it has been a pleasure to read and review it. Tim riley talk 13:50, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Many thanks both for the review and the kind words. Wehwalt (talk) 15:51, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
Nominator note
[edit]Just noting that after today, I may be out for a couple of days for medical reasons, if there are further comments.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:53, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
750h
[edit]- lead
- among the 28 Irish representative peers at that time elected to i'd remove "at that time", but i don't really mind
- I prefer the way it is now.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:01, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- something required in order to vote in ==> "something required to vote in"
- eligible to vote, and that remove the comma
- among those who were eligible to vote ==> "among those eligible to vote"
- did not apply to candidates, and declared Curzon remove the comma
- background
- House of Lords of Ireland, but provided for Irish representation remove the comma
- voter's seal affixed, and remove the comma
- with the establishment of the Irish Free State in 1922. i'd change this to either "with the Irish Free State's 1922 establishment" or "with the Irish Free State's establishment in 1922"
- candidates and campaign
- an Irish representative peer since 1890 died in Paris. bit confused here; what does "1890 died in Paris" mean
- a successor as representative peer ==> "a successor as a representative peer"
- I don't agree. It would be "a successor as MP" or "a successor as prime minister"
- A total of 134 ballots were sent to eligible peers. ==> "134 ballots were sent to eligible peers."
- It being thought that the viceroy and representative ==> "It was thought that the viceroy and representative" (i think)
- also refused Curzon a earldom or "a" should be "an"
- position in spite of the fact that Curzon had ==> "position although Curzon had"
- supporters of the boycott, but was remove the comma
- unfair to peers who had been waiting years for the honour ==> "unfair to peers waiting years for the honour"
- I dont' agree. The present language better conveys that there were peers who had waited years for the item, although we don't know specifically who was being referred to.
- people of Ireland, since the remove the comma
- Irish nationalists, which 80 percent of Irish constituencies "percent" should be "per cent"
- The number of them who exhibit Irish patriotism of any kind or degree are an insignificant minority. "are" should be "is". "The number" is singular, so the verb should also be singular.
- I'm not certain about this. It's referring to multiple people so in BritEng shouldn't it take the plural?
- I'm pretty sure. Maybe ask another editor, but i'm pretty sure it's this way. I don't mind too much
- It's a quotation in any case from a newspaper so it should probably be left as is.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:43, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure. Maybe ask another editor, but i'm pretty sure it's this way. I don't mind too much
- I'm not certain about this. It's referring to multiple people so in BritEng shouldn't it take the plural?
- election
- by a number of peers that they ==> "by several peers that they"
- Irish representative peers had claimed a right to vote, and had that claim upheld by the House of Lords, it did not require the same for the person elected. remove "it"
- aftermath
- Under a procedure set forth in the Act sounds excessively formal. i'd do "Under a procedure outlined in the Act "
- I dont' agree. I've read that portion of the Act. It sets out in detail what must be done in the case of a tie, and was done for the only time in the November election.
That's all i got. fine work! 750h+ 13:38, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- It may be a few days before I respond. Health reasons.__Wehwalt (talk) 09:30, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support, just one comment above. No problem. 750h+ 13:47, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- All done or responded to. Thanks, 750h+
- Nominator(s): ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:40, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
The Siege of Baghdad shook the world. The end of the Abbasid Caliphate, the zenith of the Mongol conquests, the foundation of a new empire in the Middle East. Legends sprang up around the siege, and it became a byword for wanton destruction—but was it?
This article passed a GA nomination from sawyer777 earlier this year, and I now bring its nomination to FAC. If successful, it will be used in the WikiCup. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:40, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments from Steelkamp
[edit]I'll have a look at this. If you would like to do a review, I've also got an article at FAC that needs reviews. Steelkamp (talk) 02:20, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Background
Could Persia be linked in the lead and body?- Done.
- What variety of English is being used? I see "utilised" rather than "utilized", but "centers" rather than "centres" and "vassalize" rather than "vassalise".
- Should be standardised to BrE now, which allows both -ise and -ize in many cases, I believe.
- I take it you are using Oxford spelling. "centers" and "epicenter" still need to be changed to "centres" and "epicentre".
- Done.
- I take it you are using Oxford spelling. "centers" and "epicenter" still need to be changed to "centres" and "epicentre".
- Should be standardised to BrE now, which allows both -ise and -ize in many cases, I believe.
"...in the words of Justin Marozzi." How about "...in the words of English historian Justin Marozzi." to tell the readers who he is."In that year Chormaqan..." Suggest to add a comma: "In that year, Chormaqan..."- Done both.
"Hulegu's progress from Karakorum was extremely leisurely by Mongol standards." Suggest to change to "Hulegu's progress from Karakorum was slow by Mongol standards." Leisurely feels too imprecise. It wasn't literally leisurely was it?- Yes, it was. done in a relaxed way, without hurrying. There was feasting, hunting, diplomatic negotations, more banquets, etc. It took almost three years to travel from Mongolia to Persia, a journey which could have been made in a number of months.
19 November." Can a year be added to that date?- Added.
"...while Gerdkuh held out for fifteen years, only falling in 1271." Is this part relevant to the siege of Baghdad, seeing as it take place over a decade after the event.- Moved into the nearby note. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:02, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Baghdad campaign
"...and so he refused." Suggest changing to "...so he refused."- I think that works less well.
"...meaning Baghdad was in a difficult position..." Suggest changing to "...placing Baghdad in a difficult position..."- Adjusted.
"...who had been occupied with troubles to the northwest." What kind of troubles?- Defined.
"...this was just "provocative bluster"..." Who is saying this quote. I don't think this should be stated in Wikipedia's voice.- Rephrased.
"The assault on Baghdad's flood-weakened walls..." I think the flood-weakened walls should be mentioned in the above paragraph at "the walls were in disrepair".- Moved.
"According to Kirakos Gandzaketsi, an Armenian historian..." Suggest changing to "According to Kirakos Gandzaketsi, a 13th-century Armenian historian..."- Good idea.
Legacy
- No comments.
Those are all my comments for now. Steelkamp (talk) 15:35, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the comments, Steelkamp. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:05, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've struck though the comments that have been addressed. There is one left which I think you have missed. I would like to do a second read-through of the whole article before deciding to support. Steelkamp (talk) 07:08, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry about that Steelkamp, the article should be ready for your second readthrough now. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:46, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hi Steelkamp, any further comments? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:41, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- To be honest, I'm feeling a bit out of my depth in reviewing this article. I have a feeling that the "background" section is a bit too long, but don't have any concrete suggestions on what to cut. I also feel that some of the language used is not accessible to a wide audience. I'm giving a support, but I encourage you to take those comments on board. Steelkamp (talk) 15:51, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- No worries, I'll take a look at what you've said. Thanks for your time. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:31, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- To be honest, I'm feeling a bit out of my depth in reviewing this article. I have a feeling that the "background" section is a bit too long, but don't have any concrete suggestions on what to cut. I also feel that some of the language used is not accessible to a wide audience. I'm giving a support, but I encourage you to take those comments on board. Steelkamp (talk) 15:51, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hi Steelkamp, any further comments? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:41, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry about that Steelkamp, the article should be ready for your second readthrough now. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:46, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've struck though the comments that have been addressed. There is one left which I think you have missed. I would like to do a second read-through of the whole article before deciding to support. Steelkamp (talk) 07:08, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
Image review
[edit]- Suggest adding alt text. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:08, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
Matarisvan
[edit]My comments:
- In the lead, "prince" does not need to be linked, doing so is creating SEAOFBLUE.
- Adjusted.
- "near to": remove the "to" from both instances in the article?
- Done
- "Assassins": add a apostrophe after since we have a possessive noun, or change to just "Assassin"?
- Added an apostrophe; the Assassins were never referred to in the singular.
- "ordered him put to death": rephrase to "ordered him to be put to death"? Though former may be grammatically correct, latter flows much better.
- I disagree; I find the latter excessively wordy.
- "were still quite delusional": Is this per the sources? Otherwise, "delusional" seems too strong a word for Wiki since we have to be neutral. Atwood 2004 uses "unrealistic" which is quite better.
- I think "delusional" is somwhat tame—al-Musta'sim has been described by sources as "pathologically avaricious", "in a state of mental imbecility", "extremely reckless", "weak, vain, incompetent and cowardly", and "utterly lumpen and uncontrolled".
- "Seljuk, Georgian, and Armenian vassals": link "Georgian" to Kingdom of Georgia, since we haven't linked to it in the article at all even though we have the corresponding categories?
- Done.
- "disrespectful behaviour towards Hulegu's envoys": Any details which can be added to the article?
- Added a phrase.
- "Baiju returned to the vanguard at Irbil": Our last mention of Baiju says he had rejoined Hulegu at Hamadan. Where was he in the interim between Hamadan and Irbil, was he not with the main army?
- Yes, he rejoined Hulegu and the main army at Hamadan, where they decided to attack Baghdad, and then he rode back to the vanguard, which he commanded, which had remained at Irbil.
- Link to Karkh?
- Done.
- Translate daruyachi as admin officers per NOFORCELINK?
- Provided.
- "by the Ottomans in 1534,": the comma is not necessary, consider removing?
- Done.
- Provide 26673137 as the JSTOR ID for Biran 2019? I can't remember the exact MOS but I read that the policy is to provide multiple access options for sources.
- Done.
- Consider removing the second link to JA Boyle in Boyle 1968? It does not serve any purpose as far as I can tell.
- MOS:DUPLINK does not apply to citations.
- Have you read this recent article by Brack, Biran and Amitai: [19]? It questions the occurrence of a plague during the siege. I have not read it yet but if you do read it before I can, please let me know if it can be used here.
- I had not; it seems to not question the occurrence of a plague, but rather the plague i.e. the disease caused by the Yersinia pestis bacterium. I have added a half-sentence citing it in the article.
- Link to Cambridge University Press as done for other publishers?
- Done, through Template:Cambridge History of Iran.
- Add 10.2307/3632138 as the DOI and 3632138 as the JSTOR ID for Smith 1975?
- That is essentially the same link three times, but done.
That's all from me on the text. A great article overall, with more details than I expected would have been extant. Matarisvan (talk) 11:18, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for an excellent set of comments Matarisvan. Replies above. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- I want to do a source text but some of the sources are inaccessible. Will you be able to wikimail 5-10 supporting sources to me for spot checks? Matarisvan (talk) 14:46, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- The files are very big, so that could be troublesome. I could provide quotations on-wiki, Matarisvan? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:24, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Alright with me. The sources that I can access, I will. For the ones I will need quotations for, I will ask. Planning to do the source review tomorrow. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 18:18, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- The files are very big, so that could be troublesome. I could provide quotations on-wiki, Matarisvan? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:24, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- A support from me for promotion to FA class. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 07:44, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I want to do a source text but some of the sources are inaccessible. Will you be able to wikimail 5-10 supporting sources to me for spot checks? Matarisvan (talk) 14:46, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
Source review
[edit]AirshipJungleman29, here goes:
- All sources are from reliable publishers and authors.
- Add 10.12987/yale/9780300125337.001.0001 as the DOI for Jackson 2017?
- Book, DOI not needed.
- Add 10.1515/9781474417402 as the DOI for May 2018? ISBNs are different in both this one and the above one but I don't think that would affect the content.
- Book, DOI not needed.
- #1: need exact quotations.
- It's a summary of two chapters; I cannot quote all of them.
- #4: ok.
- #8: Is p. 263 the right one for Atwood 2004? That page has details on the history of Japan and Mongolia/the Mongol Empire. Also need the quotation from May 2018, accessing it is tough.
- Was meant to be p. 363. May: "Thus in 1251 Mongke became Qa’an of the Mongol Empire and began the Toluid revolution. While the transition of the position of Qa’an from the house of Ogodei to the house of Tolui..."
- #18: ok.
- #23: Jackson 2017 and Boyle 1968 ok. Need exact quotation for Lane 2003.
- "As was normal practice and as was stipulated by the Mongols’ yasa, the caliph had been presented with the clear option of submitting peacefully to Hülegü and in return of receiving Hülegü’s assurances of safety."
- None of the sources say that he asked the caliph to dismantle the defences. Or maybe I missed something. Can you provide the supporting text? Matarisvan (talk) 17:27, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- That part was previously removed. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:49, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- "As was normal practice and as was stipulated by the Mongols’ yasa, the caliph had been presented with the clear option of submitting peacefully to Hülegü and in return of receiving Hülegü’s assurances of safety."
- #38: ok.
- #41: Jackson 2017 is ok, need quotation from Chambers 1979.
- "believing that they would be allowed to retire into Syria, [the soldiers of the garrison] marched out unarmed, only to be divided into companies and slaughtered."
- #45 and #56: ok.
- #53 needs page numbers for Chambers 1979.
- Fixed a sfn mistake.
- Add 10.1163/9789004192119 as the DOI and 10.1163/j.ctt1w8h10n as the JSTOR ID for Bai︠a︡rsaĭkhan 2011? The latter is open access.
- Book, DOI not needed. Added JSTOR.
- Add 10.1163/9789004314726_008 as the DOI for Biran 2016?
- Book, DOI not needed.
- Add 10.2307/j.ctv125jrx5.7 as the DOI and j.ctv125jrx5.7 as the JSTOR ID for Hodous 2020?
- Book, DOI not needed. Added JSTOR
- Add 10.4324/9780203417874 as the DOI for Lane 2003?
- Book, DOI not needed.
- Add 10.4324/9781315165172 as the DOI for Lane 2022?
- Book, DOI not needed.
Mostly ok just needs the above changes and quotations. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 18:17, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Responses above Matarisvan. My general position is that citations to books don't need DOIs. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:26, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, but it's always a good idea to give readers multiple options for accessing a source. DOIs are not required per FA criteria but it does not hurt to have them. You should get comments from other reviewers on this and see what they have to say. Matarisvan (talk) 17:27, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- As you note, they are not required by the FA criteria. What the FA criteria do require are consistently formatted citations, which would not be present if those to certain books contain DOIs and those to other books do not. In any case, DOIs for books are created by adding the code of the publisher to the ISBN, meaning they essentially duplicate what is already in the article. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:59, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- The source review is a pass then. I would appreciate it if you could comment at a PR I have running, linked here, your comments would be very helpful for improving that article. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 07:43, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- As you note, they are not required by the FA criteria. What the FA criteria do require are consistently formatted citations, which would not be present if those to certain books contain DOIs and those to other books do not. In any case, DOIs for books are created by adding the code of the publisher to the ISBN, meaning they essentially duplicate what is already in the article. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:59, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, but it's always a good idea to give readers multiple options for accessing a source. DOIs are not required per FA criteria but it does not hurt to have them. You should get comments from other reviewers on this and see what they have to say. Matarisvan (talk) 17:27, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
FM
[edit]- Marking my spot. In the meantime I see a bunch of WP:duplinks at the end of the article, which can be highlighted with this script:[20] FunkMonk (talk) 23:08, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Removed a couple; I think the others adhere to MOS:DUPLINK enough.
- Link Hulegu in the first caption he's mentioned in (infobox) instead of the caption far below?
- Done. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 23:30, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hi FunkMonk, wondering if you had forgotten about this. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:42, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- Done. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 23:30, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'll be back soonish, had to wrap up some other things. FunkMonk (talk) 13:04, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- Link dawatdar in image caption.
- Done.
- Not your "fault", but a bit weird that Talisman Gate links to a Commons page, it should really have its own article here...
- I didn't realise it linked there, I've linked to Gates of Baghdad instead.
- "This incident is likely the source of a folktale, reproduced in the writings of Christian writers such as Marco Polo" What is the significance of mentioning religion? Does it mean Western writers instead?
- No, "Christian" is specifically highlighted by Jackson 2017, who provides a list: "It clearly held a ready appeal for Christian writers, since variants are supplied by authors as diverse as the Byzantine historian Georgios Pachymeres (d. c. 1310), the Armenian historian Grigor Aknerts‛i (c. 1313), the expatriate Armenian prince Hayton of Gorighos (1307), the anonymous ‘Templar of Tyre’ (c. 1314), the Venetian adventurer Marco Polo (1298), the Dominican missionary Riccoldo da Montecroce (c. 1300) and St Louis’ biographer Jean de Joinville (1309)."
- You could also give dates in the captions of the last two images as you do for the others, for context (show they're not contemporary with the events).
- Good idea, done.
- "Having granted the palace to Makkikha to be the Christians' church" A bit hard to understand. Why specific, and not "a church"? And doesn't "church" already imply it's "Christian"?
- Simplified to "a church".
- There's a lot of mention of what religion certain people or factions belong to, which is good for context, but it leaves me wondering about the religion of the Mongols at this time, since one talked about "god", another had a Christian wife, etc. Perhaps it can be added somewhere whether they were still pagan or were starting to adopt Islam or what was going on, and what it meant for their conquests?
- Very hard to summarize in an article like this, because the Mongols' concept of religion was very different from our own, and the modern world would consider them very religiously diverse—the royal family contained shamanists, Christians, Buddhists, Muslims. Later, the religious differences would grow more stark, but that would be at least a decade away. Religion had no real impact on this campaign as it was going on—its importance was increased in retrospect.
- Similarly, the legacy section describes this as a blow to the Islamic world, but it appears the Mongols didn't try to weaken the hold of the religion? Wasn't it rather just weakening of Arab dominance of it (as later rulers were still Muslims, just of non-Arab ethnicities)?
- No, the legacy says it was a "momentous occasion"—I have specified that it was the end of the caliphate that made it so.
- "transported either to Mongke" Is this a place or Möngke Khan? Could be specified either way, and if the latter, needs an umlaut.
- Specified.
- Link Mongol campaign against the Nizaris in the article body like you do in the intro?
- Done. Thanks for the comments, FunkMonk; I look forward to more input. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:28, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support - looks good to me, wasn't much to nitpick about. FunkMonk (talk) 16:25, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments from Shushugah
[edit]- In an article about Islam use MOS:BCE instead of BC/AD (where it says Baghdad was founded in 762 AD and early 1258)
- I don't see where MOS:BCE mentions Islam, or why this article should be considered "about Islam" Shushugah.
- BC and AD revolve around the death of Jesus Christ, whereas this article is about a non-Christian subject, specifically the decline of Islamic Golden Age. CE on other hand is a more neutral year system. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 00:45, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Putting aside that this article is not about the decline of the Islamic Golden Age, I'll just remove the calendar eras. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:02, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- BC and AD revolve around the death of Jesus Christ, whereas this article is about a non-Christian subject, specifically the decline of Islamic Golden Age. CE on other hand is a more neutral year system. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 00:45, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see where MOS:BCE mentions Islam, or why this article should be considered "about Islam" Shushugah.
- repercussions -> ramifications
- Probably better, yes.
- Date range inside Infobox does not match body of article. Should it be 17 January – 10 February 1258?
- No, 17 January was the date of a battle to the north of the city, not the start of the actual siege.
- Ah I see why I didn't find 29 January, because there's 30 January possibility too. The infobox refers to Siege with date range, while body refers to assault. Either modify body or the infobox to make it clear they're referring to same thing. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 00:45, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't understand what "Either modify body or the infobox to make it clear they're referring to same thing." means Shushugah. I've added "/30" to the infobox if that's what you meant? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:02, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I would understand "assault" to be interchangeable with battle, but according to your explanation, the assault on 29/30 January is the beginning of the siege, while on 17 January was an unrelated battle. Infobox title refers to siege and includes a date range, without explicitly clarifying what this date range refers to. I do not have a specific solution in mind, but was and am still confused when reading it, so clarifying what is being referred to would help other readers. Perhaps I am not familiar with WP:MILHIST terminology, but neither are most readers ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 10:08, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- The infobox is titled "Siege of Baghdad". As such, the information therein is about the siege of Baghdad, not about the events leading up to it.The lead section states: "the Mongol army soon approached Baghdad, routing a sortie on 17 January 1258 by flooding their camp. They then invested Baghdad, which was left with around 30,000 troops. The assault began at the end of January. This, chronologically, defines the 17 January battle as a sortie, notes they surrounded Baghdad, and states they began their assault at the end of the month. I don't know how "assault" could be interpreted as referring to the battle on 17 January—that seems counterintuitive.The body, meanwhile, does essentially the same over three paragraphs, and even says "The assault on Baghdad's walls" to reduce confusion. I honestly don't see where the lack of clarity is. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:27, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I would understand "assault" to be interchangeable with battle, but according to your explanation, the assault on 29/30 January is the beginning of the siege, while on 17 January was an unrelated battle. Infobox title refers to siege and includes a date range, without explicitly clarifying what this date range refers to. I do not have a specific solution in mind, but was and am still confused when reading it, so clarifying what is being referred to would help other readers. Perhaps I am not familiar with WP:MILHIST terminology, but neither are most readers ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 10:08, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't understand what "Either modify body or the infobox to make it clear they're referring to same thing." means Shushugah. I've added "/30" to the infobox if that's what you meant? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:02, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ah I see why I didn't find 29 January, because there's 30 January possibility too. The infobox refers to Siege with date range, while body refers to assault. Either modify body or the infobox to make it clear they're referring to same thing. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 00:45, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- No, 17 January was the date of a battle to the north of the city, not the start of the actual siege.
- proclaimed khan -> what does this mean? ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 18:11, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Recognised as ruler—see modern usage e.g. [21] [22]. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:29, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): Merytat3n (talk) 10:35, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
This article is about the funerary monuments and burial of the ancient Egyptian official Kha and his wife, Merit. Their ruined funerary chapel in Deir el-Medina was known since the early 1800s but their tomb, hidden at the base of the cliffs opposite the chapel, was discovered in 1906, intact after more than 3000 years. The majority of the contents (over 440 items) were awarded to the Italian Archaeological Mission's director, Ernesto Schiaparelli, and are housed in the Museo Egizio in Turin, Italy. Being unrobbed, the tomb gives a glimpse of what a well-stocked middle class burial looked like during the height of the Eighteenth Dynasty, during the reign of Amenhotep III.
I took this article to GA last year, and through peer review earlier in the year. After picking at it a while, and with the kind mentorship of Iry-hor, I am nominating it for FAC. Merytat3n (talk) 10:35, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments Support from Tim riley
[edit]This is a top-notch article and a delight to read (as I would expect from a protégée of Iry-Hor). These few comments are all I can come up with by way of criticism:
- The article is evidently in BrE, in which case "modeled" should be "modelled".
- The work "likely" occurs 19 times in the text, and a few variations such as "probably", "possibly", "may have been" etc would relieve the monotony.
- Similarly we have seven "due to"s. A few "because of"s or "owing to"s (both, on the whole better in formal English) would help the prose along.
- "Sem-priest" – a link or explanation would be welcome.
- "further restoration was carried out in 2002, before being placed on a new padded mount in 2004" – could do with a tweak – what was placed on a new mount was not further restoration, but that which was restored.
- "the Bibliothèque Nationale in Paris, France" – as opposed to the Bibliothèque Nationale in Paris, Peru? Paris, Outer Mongolia? Paris, Azerbaijan? And I'd be sparing, à la français, with the capital letters, here and in the Institut Français d'Archéologie Orientale.
- "kiosk" – in the UK a kiosk is the booth where you buy your newspapers and cigarettes outside the railway station: a brief explanation of what the term meant to the Ancient Egyptians, as at Philae, would be helpful here.
I hope these few points are helpful, and apologies if my tone is a bit tetchy: it's beastly hot and sticky in London today. Tim riley talk 18:46, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for your kind words and helpful comments! I have addressed them as best I can ^_^ Merytat3n (talk) 11:16, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- All admirably addressed. I'm happy to support the elevation of this article to FA: it meets every criterion in my view, and I hope we shall be seeing more from the nominator in due course. Tim riley talk 11:35, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
Airship
[edit]On first glance, seems a superb article. As always, these are suggestions, not demands; feel free to refuse with justification.
- Kha and Merit
- "but this probably reflects the use of this king's name long after his reign" is this the general consensus of scholars or the view of one? if the latter, his/her view should be attributed.
- Trapani (2012) says: "The prenomen of Thutmosis III (Men-kheper-Re) in effect was often used on scarabs or other objects much later than the Eighteenth Dynasty, signifying that his seal-name had acquired a protective power of its own." She cites C. Adriano, The Cretulae from the Tomb of Kha and their Administrative Signiicance in a Funeral Context, CRIPEL 22 (2001), 109–122, which I don't have access to. However, page 4 of Kathyln M. Cooney's "Scarab" chapter in the UCLA Encyclopedia of Egyptology (2008) does back this up: "Even scarab inscriptions with royal names cannot necessarily be dated to the reigns of those rulers, because such names are often inscribed long after a ruler’s death—particularly those of the 4th-Dynasty king Sneferu, the 18th-Dynasty Thutmose III (Jaeger 1982), and the 19th-Dynasty Ramesses II." Added a citation to Cooney for academic robustness. I've also clarified why Kha is unlikely to have been working in Thutmose III's reign. Merytat3n (talk) 11:19, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- "obtained a bronze pan" couple of things: 1) by "pan", I assume of the cooking variety? 2) "obtained" normally means he asked, whereas the previous sentence indicates it was a gift.
- 1) swapped to "bowl" 2) swapped to "received" Merytat3n (talk) 11:19, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- "a "gold of honour"" ... I'm not entirely sure what this means.
- Oh OOPS! Defined (+ common alternative name and translit). Merytat3n (talk) 11:19, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Preparations for his tomb likely began in the reign of Thutmose IV, as his name occurs most frequently as a seal on vessels." The second "his" is made more ambiguous by the fact that we have referred to Kha only as he/his for a few sentences now. Would suggest changing "as his" to "whose".
- "on the style of his coffins" absolutely no clue whether this "his" refers to Kha or Amenhotep III.
- Swapped sentence around to be "Based on the style of his coffins...Kha probably died in the third decade of Amenhotep III's rule" to make it clear. Merytat3n (talk) 11:19, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- "the juvenilising art style seen on the painted funerary chests" as we previously haven't discussed the funerary chests, we could remove the "the" and clearly define them as in the tomb?
- "Merit (also transcribed as Meryt[1])" I believe it's normal practice for the citation to follow the parentheses, but I could be wrong.
- It is but if the citation in question refers specifically to the contents of the parentheses, the citation goes inside. In this case, the [1] citation refers to her as Meryt not Merit as the main citation does (although technically Meryt is more correct to the hieros (mryt)). Merytat3n (talk) 11:19, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- "She seems to have predeceased Kha. Her death was probably unexpected as she is buried in a coffin intended for him." these closely-linked sentences could be combined; if not, "she was buried" seems more natural than "she is buried", although the latter is technically correct...
- Chapel
- Might be worth adding a clarification for the unlearned, such as I, that the chapel and tomb are separate from each other.
- I mention that they are separate in the last paragraph of that section, just before "Decoration" but I can mention it again, at the risk of duplication. Merytat3n (talk) 11:19, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Let's see if other reviewers bring it up.
- I mention that they are separate in the last paragraph of that section, just before "Decoration" but I can mention it again, at the risk of duplication. Merytat3n (talk) 11:19, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- "time of European interest in it, during" can be cut
- "the stele now in the Museo Egizio in Turin, Italy" should probably be "a stele"
- The back wall being damaged during the stele's removal is mentioned twice.
- Kept the "second" mention of damage in the decoration section and removed the "first" mention. Merytat3n (talk) 11:19, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Would suggest linking Register (art).
- Tomb
- This section contains several long paragraphs; I would suggest they be split in half, especially those which comprise individual sections by themselves (MOS:OVERSECTION).
- So far I have only split up the large first paragraph in "Discovery and clearance". Merytat3n (talk) 09:40, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- File:A TT8 Kha sírja Dejr-el-Medinében.jpeg is a very unhelpful picture+caption. First, are we to assume the yellow dot covers up the location of the tomb? Surely an arrow would be better?Second, the latter part of the caption (viz. "visible diagonally to the left of the tomb, partially obscured by the hill") is just confusing. After around five minutes of searching, I think I can see a flat-topped structure, next to some terrace-like walls, on a bearing of 250° from the yellow dot—is that the chapel?If so, note that readers will naturally see "obscured by hill" and assume you mean the big ones at the back of the photo, where I spent the first four minutes playing I spy. You could alleviate this problem by saying "closer to the camera" or something.
- Yeah, it sucks. Honestly, I will probably just remove the image. I would love to use a simple plan view of the area, such as appears in the general plan of Deir el-Medina in Bruyère's 1925 publication (chapel labelled 8A and tomb 8B, upper centre of image) but alas I believe they are still in copyright as Bruyère only died in 1971. Merytat3n (talk) 09:40, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- That does seem to be the case. I ran into the same problem with Ai-Khanoum, but in that case others had uploaded their own renditions (presumably allowable per commons:COM:TOO France). If you are any good with a pen or with online software, you could probably do the same thing. If you can't, not a big deal. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:30, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- I will see what I can do this weekend : ) Merytat3n (talk) 09:51, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- Well, I wasn't satisfied with my weekend attempts but it's not strictly necessary, just a nice to have. I can always keep trying : ) Merytat3n (talk) 09:51, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I will see what I can do this weekend : ) Merytat3n (talk) 09:51, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- That does seem to be the case. I ran into the same problem with Ai-Khanoum, but in that case others had uploaded their own renditions (presumably allowable per commons:COM:TOO France). If you are any good with a pen or with online software, you could probably do the same thing. If you can't, not a big deal. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:30, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, it sucks. Honestly, I will probably just remove the image. I would love to use a simple plan view of the area, such as appears in the general plan of Deir el-Medina in Bruyère's 1925 publication (chapel labelled 8A and tomb 8B, upper centre of image) but alas I believe they are still in copyright as Bruyère only died in 1971. Merytat3n (talk) 09:40, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- "the discoloured limestone fill was mixed with bone, pottery, and cloth" is this necessary information?
- Nope. Removed.Merytat3n (talk) 09:40, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- The fourth paragraph duplicates the contents of the ... "Contents" section below. Most of the middle bit could be removed.
- "published the discovery" as in he published an account of the discovery,?
- Fixed (and expanded this section a little). Merytat3n (talk) 09:40, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- "of the discovery" is repeated twice within two phrases.
- Reworded.Merytat3n (talk) 09:40, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- "leading to confusion" resolved or unresolved?
- Unresolved, but I have resolved the wording : )Merytat3n (talk) 09:40, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- "A cubit rod ... may have been an award from [Amenhotep II]" this uncertainty is at odds with the "Kha and Merit" section, which shows no such lack of surety.
- Source checked and surety established.Merytat3n (talk) 09:40, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Will continue. If you have time and the inclination, I have a current FAC I would appreciate comments on. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:53, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): Phlsph7 (talk) 08:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
Most people are familiar with algebra from their school days, where they learned to solve equations like . However, there is also a more abstract form of algebra, which is of particular interest to mathematicians because it provides a general framework for understanding operations on mathematical objects. Thanks to Bilorv for their in-depth GA review and to Mathwriter2718 and Chatul for their peer reviews. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
RoySmith (Support)
[edit]- As an administrative note, I noticed this page had been semi-protected since 2008. 16 years of protection seemed excessive, so I unprotected it.
- I'm still looking at this, but I do want to say that it's a joy to see a math article which is so approachable. My training is in engineering; I'm a user of math, but not a mathematician. Most math articles (Lie algebra being a good example) make my eyes glaze ever before I get past the first sentence. In this article, I'm down to Linear algebra and I'm still following every detail. This is wonderful!
- Hello RoySmith and thanks for reviewing the article! The parts on abstract and universal algebra will get a little more challenging but this is not entirely avoidable and I hope they are still accessible enough to grasp the main ideas without feeling overwhelmed. Phlsph7 (talk) 15:08, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, I'm working on Abstract algebra now. Slower going than before, but I'm still hanging in there :-) RoySmith (talk) 15:11, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
The word algebra comes from the Arabic term الجبر (al-jabr), which originally referred to the surgical treatment of bonesetting
You can't just leave the reader hanging without giving at least some explanation of how we got from bonesetting to a high-school math class. You link to Traditional bone-setting, but that doesn't say anything about it. I did a bit of searching. "The Origin of the Term "Algebra" on JSTOR". jstor.org. Retrieved 6 August 2024. talks about this a bit while "Simplifying equations in Arabic algebra". sciencedirect.com. Retrieved 6 August 2024. suggests the connection may be entirely accidental. Either way, I think it's worth a sentence or two.- That's a good idea and the sources are helpful. I put it in a footnote since there is no consensus on the exact meaning. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:01, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
x-y-pair
do you need both hyphens? I would think "x-y pair".- Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:07, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
An equation is linear if ... no operations like exponentiation, extraction of roots, and logarithm are applied to variables
why the equivocation, i.e. "operations like"? Which operations are like those and which are unlike? My understanding is that an equation is linear if there's no power greater than 1, and things like logs and roots get included in that implicitly via their Taylor series. I think this would be better written as an explicit list of operations that are allowed, rather than a vague "stuff like this isn't allowed".- Done: I added the general form and cut the "stuff like this isn't allowed" down to a short side remark. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:27, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
An operation[k] is associative if the order of several applications does not matter, i.e., if (a circle b) circle c ...
This is the first time you use the circle notation. A little earlier when you introduce N for Natural Numbers, you do a good job of explaining what the notation means; you should do similarly here. My understanding is that it's just "an arbitrary binary operation", but that should be clarified.- That explanation is given in a footnote, which was unfortunately positioned in a rather unintuitive place. I moved it right after the first use of the circle symbol so that the connection is clearer. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:18, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
An operation admits inverse elements...
explain what it means to "admit" an element.- I reformulated the expression to make it simpler. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:24, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
The natural numbers ... contain only positive numbers
Why not "positive integers"?- Changed. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:24, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
Group theory is the subdiscipline of abstract algebra studying groups.
studying -> which studies.- Reformulated. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:00, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how File:Magma to group4.svg relates to the rest of the article, or at least to the text it's near. It's near a section that talks about rings and fields, but the diagram only shows relationships for groups. Perhaps it should go with the following paragraph, where magmas et al are discussed?
- You are right, I moved it to the following paragraph. I expanded the caption to make it easier to see how it is relevant to the discussion. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:00, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
They differ from each other in regard to the types of objects they describe and the requirements that their operations fulfill
To me, this is the key sentence in this whole section. To go back to my comment about my eyes glazing over when I read articles like Lie algebra, this lays out the logical foundation that helps me read " a Lie algebra (pronounced /liː/ LEE) is a vector space ... together with an operation called the Lie bracket, an alternating bilinear map ... that satisfies the Jacobi identity}} and really start to get my head around what it's saying. By analogy, I have a rudimentary knowledge of Spanish, but I can usually read something well enough to say, "OK, that's a conjugated verb. I don't recognize the verb, and I'm not sure about the tense, but at least I can get past that and keep going with the sentence, knowing I can always go back and look up the verb later". The same thing here. I don't know what an "alternating bilinear map" is, but with your explanation in mind, I can say, "OK, I don't know what that is, but at least I recognize it's describing "the requirements the operation fulfills" and I can keep making progress, knowing I can come back later and dig deeper. The point of this rambling note is just to say that I think this sentence needs more prominent placement, perhaps in the first paragraph of this section. Then you can still conclude the section by saying that you've only described the three most basic structures, and lots of other ones exist, such as magmas, etc.- I found a way to mention this characterization in the first paragraph. I very much agree with you about the accessibility problems of several math articles. Some of them read as if they were written primarily for mathematicians, which becomes a problem specifically for the lead if an educated non-expert reader can't figure out what the topic of the article is. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:22, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
(I'm done with Major Branches. I'll pick up with History another day)
I couldn't stay away, so I finished this up today. I really can't find anything else to complain about in the rest of the article. I'll just leave you with a couple of suggestions which you can take or leave at your pleasure. One is that in Other branches of mathematics where you talk about algebraic solutions to geometric problems, you might want to mention that origami has been used to solve algebraic problems using geometry, see for example https://sites.math.washington.edu/~morrow/336_09/papers/Sheri.pdf. The other is that I don't think you can talk about Gerolamo Cardano without at least mentioning that he has been credited with inventing (or at least accepting the existance of) imaginary numbers.
- I added a short side remark about origami and mentioned imaginary numbers. Thanks a lot for all the helpful suggestions! Phlsph7 (talk) 12:16, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not qualified to review this for the quality of the research or comprehensiveness, but I'm happy to give my support for general structure and "prose is engaging and of a professional standard".
Image review
[edit]- File:Muḥammad_ibn_Mūsā_al-Khwārizmī.png: the fine print on the licensing tag suggests a cropped image like this might not be covered by the copyright exception
- I removed the image since there were also other concerns about it in the comments below. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:39, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- File:Rhind_Mathematical_Papyrus.jpg needs a US tag
- I added an US tag. Phlsph7 (talk) 15:44, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- File:Francois_Viete.jpg needs a US tag, and why is this linked to the article? Ditto File:Frans_Hals_-_Portret_van_René_Descartes.jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:05, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- I added US tags and removed the links. Phlsph7 (talk) 15:44, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- On the former, the version that's actually in this article is File:Francois_Viete.jpeg - the one you changed is the version that's in the article that was previously linked (apologies for the confusion). The version in this article still needs tagging and also has a dead source link. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:00, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- That's confusing indeed, thanks for catching it. I added the US tag and replaced the dead link. Phlsph7 (talk) 07:27, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- There was a similar problem with Descartes's image. To avoid future confusion, the images currently linked in the article are https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Francois_Viete.jpeg and https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Frans_Hals_-_Portret_van_Ren%C3%A9_Descartes_(cropped).jpg. Phlsph7 (talk) 07:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- On the former, the version that's actually in this article is File:Francois_Viete.jpeg - the one you changed is the version that's in the article that was previously linked (apologies for the confusion). The version in this article still needs tagging and also has a dead source link. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:00, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
UC
[edit]I know even less about this one than ethics, so a more sensible person would stay away -- a few comments regardless:
- Linear algebra is a closely related field investigating variables that appear in several linear equations, called a system of linear equations. It tries to discover the values that solve all equations at the same time.: "all equations in the system"? As phrased, it sounds like we mean all equations in existence.
- Good catch. Added. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:56, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Algebraic methods were first studied in the ancient period: as with ethics, I think we could do with being a little more precise. Are we happy, for instance, that the Rhind papyrus is the earliest document to concern algebra, and/or that none exists older than the 2nd millennium BCE, or that the oldest known studies are from Egypt?
- We could mention the example of the Rhind Papyrus with a date in this lead paragraph. But I'm not sure that we want to go into those details in the lead. Phlsph7 (talk) 15:45, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- A matter of taste, maybe, but I'm not sure about a 1980s postage stamp (especially as the likeness is almost certainly totally fictitious) for al-Khwarizmi, especially if we're not going to tell the reader what the image is (some will, I'm sure, assume it's a contemporary portrait). Elsewhere, we have this, which is a page (I think the first page?) from the text we're discussing -- would that be a better illustration here?
- Good idea, I replaced the image, especially since there were also some copyright concerns above. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:41, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Transliterated Arabic should be in a transliteration template.
- Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:56, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- A higher level of abstraction is achieved in abstract algebra: is is achieved the right phrase here -- it sounds like we're saying that abstract algebra is better than elementary algebra, when surely they're each trying to do slightly different things? "Abstract algebra uses/creates/allows a higher level of abstraction"?
- Reformulated. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:56, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Suggest linking countable noun.
- Added. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:56, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Very pedantic, but the link on " a certain type of binary operation" covers the "a", while the one on "a specific type of algebraic structure" doesn't. Usual form is to include it, I think.
- I included the "a" in the wikilink scope. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:56, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- It's a little odd that note c mentions al-Khwarizmi before we've introduced him, and when we're talking about the use of the term prior to his work. I'd move it to the end of the following sentence.
- Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:56, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- This changed in the course of the 19th century: why not, simply, in the nineteenth century?
- Simplified. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:56, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Note e (definition of constants vs. variables) does strictly need a citation, even though it's not exactly controversial. There are a couple of others -- I noticed l and s.
- Done, I hope I got all. I reformulated footnote l to be only about this article. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:56, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not going to kick up a huge fuss on this point, but it would be reassuring to provide a citation to show that other people do this too (in other words, that it's not our own idea). UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:03, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:01, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- The lowercase letters a and b are usually used for constants and coefficients. For example, the expression 5x+3 is an algebraic expression created by multiplying the number 5 with the variable and adding the number 3 to the result. I don't really understand the use of "for example" here -- I think we need to introduce this as a new thought.
- Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:04, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- An equation is a statement formed by comparing two expressions with an equals sign ... Inequations are formed with symbols like the less-than sign (), the greater-than sign (), and the inequality sign (). : would it be better to explain this in terms of meaning rather than symbology? After all, the statement "the square on the hypotenuse is equal to the squares on the other two sides" was as much as passed for an equation for a large part of mathematical history, and we can imagine some other form of notation that expresses equations with a different sign or none at all.
- I reformulated it to take a middle path, covering both meaning and symbols. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:47, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Some algebraic expressions take the form of statements that relate two expressions to one another: two or more?
- Two is the typical format in algebra. Our formulation leaves it open whether there are other alternatives. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:47, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- It does. UndercoverClassicist T·C 14:40, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Two is the typical format in algebra. Our formulation leaves it open whether there are other alternatives. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:47, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- The main goal of elementary algebra is to determine for which values a statement is true: more idiomatic, to me, as "the values for which a statement is true".
- Reformulated. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:47, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- In a similar way, if one knows the exact value of one variable one may be able to use it to determine the value of other variables.: do we lose anything important by cutting exact here?
- Not really. Removed. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:47, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- It bothers me that the graph example uses the wrong symbol for subtraction (the dash is too short), but that's not really your problem. Do consider, however, MOS:COLOUR in describing the line as red (not everyone can see its colour) -- perhaps also add that it slopes upwards to the right? I appreciate that there's only one line that graph-literate readers could identify, but we're rightly pitching this article to complete beginners, and it's not impossible that some won't know what the axes are.
- I updated the image file to use a longer symbol for subtraction (I had to close and re-open my browser for it show the new version). I also followed your suggestion to identify the line not only by color but also by slope. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:47, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- This means that no variables are multiplied with each other and no powers of variables occur.: or that no variables are raised to a power greater than one?
- Reformulated. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:47, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- A system of equations that has solutions is called consistent. This is the case if the equations do not contradict each other: better as A system of equations that has solutions is called consistent if the equations do not contradict each other? At the moment, we state something, and then immediately seem to state that it isn't (always) true. If I've got it right, we're saying that it's impossible to be inconsistent and to have any solutions, so it might even be clearer to state that first -- something like If two or more equations contradict each other, the system of equations is called inconsistent and has no solutions. For example, the equations and contradict each other since no values of and exist that solve both equations at the same time. If two or more equations contradict each other, the system of equations is inconsistent and has no solutions. A system of equations that has solutions is called consistent.
- I implemented a similar reformulation. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- LU Decomposition: decap decomposition, and consider spelling out lower–upper?
- Decap done. I kept the "LU" since this is the more common way of referring to it and also the name of our article. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- On a geometric level, systems of equations can be interpreted as geometric figures: do we need the first bit? Seems repetitive, given the end of the sentence.
- Removed. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- For systems with two variables, each equation represents a line in two-dimensional space. The point where the two lines intersect is the solution: can we briefly explain why this is so?
- I added a short explanation. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- binary operations, which take two objects as input: as inputs, surely, or as their input?
- Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- The date of the Rhind papyrus -- can we give an idea of the "error bars" on the debate -- does everyone agree it's C17th, for example, or do some people think it's much later, or a modern forgery?
- Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- These developments happened in the ancient period in diverse regions such as Babylonia, Egypt, Greece, China, and India: our phrasing here implies that this list isn't exhaustive. Is that what's intended?
- Simplified. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- In ancient China: I know the date of The Nine Chapters on the Mathematical Art isn't totally straightforward, but we should give it one anyway, if the Greeks get them.
- Added. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- On Vector 22, I have quite a lot of sandwiching between the Al-Khwarizmi manuscript and the double portrait. I realise I've earlier suggested using it in place of Al-Khwarizmi's face, so that would solve this problem as well.
- Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:42, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- We get a lot of people described as "the nationality mathematician": you could consider dropping mathematician in these contexts, and take it as read that we're generally talking about mathematicians (see User:Caeciliusinhorto/Context considered harmful for an argument for this). Very much a matter of taste, though.
- the German mathematicians ... Emil Artin -- he was Austrian.
- Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- to solve puzzles like Sudoku and Rubik's cube: we generally speak of a Rubik's cube, so I'd pluralise it here (especially as there are different variations on the form).
- Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Algebra education mostly focuses on elementary algebra, which is one of the reasons why it is also called school algebra. It is usually not introduced -- the series of its may not be totally clear -- we seem to be swapping antecedent here (the first one is elementary algebra, the second algebra education).
- I replaced the first "it". Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- unlike arithmetic calculations, algebraic expressions often cannot be directly solved: you might add an easily in here -- you can solve most school problems by trial and error, or simply by spotting the answer, but it's much easier to do it "properly".
- I guess it depends on whether we read "often cannot" as "in many cases, there is no logical possibility" or as "in many cases, there is no reliable way to do so". I would add it but "easily directly solved" sounds a bit odd. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- To me, often cannot easily be directly solved is good English -- or perhaps "are often difficult to solve directly"? UndercoverClassicist T·C 14:06, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:03, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- To me, often cannot easily be directly solved is good English -- or perhaps "are often difficult to solve directly"? UndercoverClassicist T·C 14:06, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- I guess it depends on whether we read "often cannot" as "in many cases, there is no logical possibility" or as "in many cases, there is no reliable way to do so". I would add it but "easily directly solved" sounds a bit odd. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- On the education side -- how worldwide is the use of balance scales? We've cited a single school textbook here, which to me is verging on WP:PRIMARY -- I'd be more comfortable with a survey article on the use of the technique in (American?) mathematical education. I've never seen it in UK schools, outside isolated word problems -- function machines are more common over here as a basic introduction to the ideas of algebra. I'd be interested to know how things are done in places like Shanghai and Hong Kong, which generally seem to outperform both systems, at least as far as concerns producing students who can solve school-algebra problems.
- I added two more sources that that examine some research on this approach. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Both of these sources (particularly Kaput 2018) consider balance scales as one tool among many -- Kieran talks about other manipulatives (cups and sticks, for example), and Kaput talks about a whole bunch of visualisations (including function machines), particularly those which they feel to be appropriate for use with a computer. I think the discussion here needs to be broadened to reflect those sources -- there's a good point to be made that teaching algebra often involves using conceptual tools, often ones with which students can interact physically, before introducing abstract concepts such as variables, but we shouldn't frame that entirely through one of those tools (balance scales). There's an interesting booklet for teachers here, with extensive bibliography, which recommends the use of representations but also acknowledges that the evidence for their effectiveness (like everything else in education!) is minimal. UndercoverClassicist T·C 14:13, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- I added some additional context to the discussion by mentioning manipulatives and visualizations. Phlsph7 (talk) 15:41, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've made a small and slightly pedantic fix (computers aren't visualisations), but I think this works well now. Feel free to counter-tweak. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:37, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Looks good. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:48, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've made a small and slightly pedantic fix (computers aren't visualisations), but I think this works well now. Feel free to counter-tweak. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:37, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- I added some additional context to the discussion by mentioning manipulatives and visualizations. Phlsph7 (talk) 15:41, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Both of these sources (particularly Kaput 2018) consider balance scales as one tool among many -- Kieran talks about other manipulatives (cups and sticks, for example), and Kaput talks about a whole bunch of visualisations (including function machines), particularly those which they feel to be appropriate for use with a computer. I think the discussion here needs to be broadened to reflect those sources -- there's a good point to be made that teaching algebra often involves using conceptual tools, often ones with which students can interact physically, before introducing abstract concepts such as variables, but we shouldn't frame that entirely through one of those tools (balance scales). There's an interesting booklet for teachers here, with extensive bibliography, which recommends the use of representations but also acknowledges that the evidence for their effectiveness (like everything else in education!) is minimal. UndercoverClassicist T·C 14:13, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- I added two more sources that that examine some research on this approach. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
Can I echo Roy's praise for the clarity and approachability of this article -- I'll admit that I skipped fairly lightly over the abstract algebra section, but the rest was absolutely clear and manageable, and I suspect I'm going to be one of the least qualified mathematicians to review this here. Excellent work once again. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:55, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for yet another detailed review and for taking a leap to provide a non-expert opinion on the article! Given that Wikipedia is a general encyclopedia, this is also an important perspective to consider. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:55, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support: I am hugely impressed by the writing and clarity here, and while I am not qualified to vouch for the mathematics, everything within my expertise looks excellent. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:38, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the support! Phlsph7 (talk) 08:39, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support: I am hugely impressed by the writing and clarity here, and while I am not qualified to vouch for the mathematics, everything within my expertise looks excellent. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:38, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments Edwininlondon
[edit]Although I am neither an expert in the field nor a native speaker, I have a few comments. Overall I very much appreciated the clarity and structure.
- Algebra is the branch of mathematics that studies algebraic structures --> while I like overall how clearly topics are being described, there are a few cases where I get a sense of recursion. Is there a way to avoid using algebraic in the definition of algebra?
- You are right that this sounds circular, but I'm not sure that there is a good alternative. There was already a detailed discussion on this point in the GA review that resulted in consensus on the current formulation. It sounds circular but it isn't circular since the technical term "algebraic structure" is defined without reference to algebra. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- called a system of linear equations. --> why italics?
- This is per MOS:WORDSASWORDS since we talk about the term "system of linear equations". Phlsph7 (talk) 16:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- that appear in several linear equations --> a definition of linear would be good
- We could add a footnote but I'm not sure that we should get into this in the lead section. The first paragraph of the subsection "Linear algebra" provides a definition. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Algebra is the branch of mathematics that studies algebraic operations[a] and algebraic structures --> too recursive for me. A question: do I understand it correctly that algebraic structures include lgebraic operations? If so, do we really need to say "algebraic operations[a] and algebraic structures" or can it just use structures?
- You are right, the operations are already included. I found a way to reformulate the sentence to take this into account while cutting down on the repetitive language. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Arithmetic studies arithmetic operations --> too recursive for me
- I removed the term "arithmetic" since we already list the main operations. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- first use of axiom in body is not linked. Perhaps do this: together with their underlying axioms, the laws they follow.
- Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- The natural numbers, by contrast, do not form a group --> should the + operation not be mentioned?
- Correct, I added it. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:35, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- One of the earliest documents is the Rhind Papyrus --> One of the earliest mathematical documents is the Rhind Papyrus
- I implemented the idea in a slightly different way. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:35, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- several generations between the 10th century BCE and the 2nd century CE --> I don't think 1000+ years can be described as several generations
- Agreed, this is an understatement. I adjusted the text. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:35, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thābit ibn Qurra in the 9th century --> I assume there is no more accurate estimate? Since 825 CE is also the 9th century, perhaps something like "also in the 9th century"?
- I think he made contributions in several works so we would have to list several dates. I added the "also". Phlsph7 (talk) 16:35, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- In 1247, the Chinese mathematician Qin Jiushao --> how come this is not with the other China info?
- For chronological reasons: roughly speaking, we have two paragraphs on ancient history, two paragraphs on post-classical history, and then modern history. It's not ideal but putting him into the ancient paragraph is not ideal either. Phlsph7 (talk) 16:35, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
That's all I could see. Nice work. Edwininlondon (talk) 19:50, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hello Edwininlondon, I appreciate you taking the time to review this article! Phlsph7 (talk) 16:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
A bit more:
- x y c – variables/constants --> would be better to make 2 lines and separate the variables from the constant
- Done. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:12, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- forgive me if this has been agreed already, but is Encyclopedia of Mathematics as a wiki a reliable source?
- Thanks for raising this point. The website use wiki software to display the pages but it is not user-generated. The articles were originally published in book form by Kluwer Academic Publishers/Springer and only later made accessible online. We could cite the original books but the online version is much better accessible for readers. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:12, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- inconsistent date formats. Example: "from the original on 4 October 2009. Retrieved 23 October 2023" but also "from the original on 2024-01-12. Retrieved 2024-01-13"
- Done. I hope the script got all. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:41, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Walz, Guido (2016) needs a trans-title
- Added. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:41, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Spotcheck: 37 51 84 85 87 118 all check out
- 80 does indeed give 1550 but somehow I feel this source is not right to make the claim "The exact date is disputed and some historians suggest a later date around 1550 BCE" A more scientific source would be better.
- I replaced it with a better source. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:41, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- 87 is correct but the link unfortunately does not put me on page 31, nor is that page accessible to me. Perhaps this link is better: https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/11540/chapter/4
- I fixed the link, the page preview works for me now. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:41, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
That's it for this final round. Edwininlondon (talk) 07:16, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comments. I hope I was able to address the main concerns. Phlsph7 (talk) 11:41, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes. Almost all fine, except that there still is a lingering sadness in me regarding the opening sentence with its circularity. I don't think the argument that the technical term "algebraic structure" is defined without reference to algebra is particularly strong. But I lack the expertise to provide something useful. Perhaps it is something like "Algebra is ..., known as algebraic structures, ... I was thinking perhaps the part "manipulation of statements within those structures" can be dropped, as that surely is encompassed by the word "studies". But maybe the phrase "manipulation of statements" is rather critical, as it conveys the essence of the field. Sorry, I can't express what is better. Edwininlondon (talk) 12:31, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- The current first sentence is: "Algebra is the branch of mathematics that studies algebraic structures and the manipulation of statements within those structures". This definition is not circular since "algebraic structure" has a precise definition that does not refer to the field of algebra. So it's not a problem with the definition itself but only with the linguistic level since it is preferable to avoid repeating the words algebra-algebraic.
- I'll brainstorm some alternatives:
- Algebra is the branch of mathematics that studies abstract structures and the manipulation of statements within those structures
- The expression "abstract structures" does not have a precise definition and could mean all kinds of things, so this formulation sacrifices information for linguistic improvements
- Algebra is the branch of mathematics that studies operations from a Cartesian power of a set into that set and the manipulation of statements using these operations.
- This is precise but most readers will have difficulties figuring out what "operations from a Cartesian power of a set into that set" means. Especially for the first sentence, this is not a good idea.
- Algebra is the branch of mathematics that studies operations on mathematical objects and the manipulation of statements using these operations.
- This is a less detailed and more accessible version of (2). Instead of repeating algebra-algebraic, this formulation repeats mathematics-mathematical.
- Algebra is the branch of mathematics that studies abstract structures and the manipulation of statements within those structures
- When compared to these alternatives, I prefer the current version, but I'm also open to other ideas. Option 3 would be my second choice.
- Roughly speaking, the first clause on algebraic structures covers abstract/universal algebra while the second clause on the manipulation of statements covers elementary/linear algebra. If we removed the second clause, we would focus only on the more abstract side of algebra. Phlsph7 (talk) 07:25, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for generating alternatives, much appreciated. I'd be curious to hear what other FAC reviewers think. In my mini-sample of 2 non-maths people, both raised an eyebrow at "algebraic". Alternative 2 is too technical indeed. Number 3 would be my preferred option. Edwininlondon (talk) 12:24, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- Any mileage in "certain abstract structures, known as algebraic structures", or similar? UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:47, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- 4. Algebra is the branch of mathematics that studies certain abstract structures, known as algebraic structures, and the manipulation of statements within those structures.
- 5. Algebra is the branch of mathematics that studies certain abstract systems, known as algebraic structures, and the manipulation of statements within those systems.
- 6. Algebra is the branch of mathematics that studies certain abstract frameworks, known as algebraic structures, and the manipulation of statements within those frameworks.
- All of them are a little bit longer than the original. Maybe they could work without the word "certain". In (4), the repeated use of the word "structure" might be a problem. Of these three, (5) would be my preference. Phlsph7 (talk) 15:31, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- I like (5). Edwininlondon (talk) 08:50, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- 5 makes sense to me as a layman, though obviously I can't speak for its technical accuracy/completeness. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:15, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- I implemented the suggestion. It's a little longer but should be more accessible. Phlsph7 (talk) 07:40, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- I Support on prose. My uni algebra is too long ago to fully vouch for the technical aspect, but it looks very convincing. A nice piece of work. Edwininlondon (talk) 17:00, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for your helpful comments and the support! Phlsph7 (talk) 07:17, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- I Support on prose. My uni algebra is too long ago to fully vouch for the technical aspect, but it looks very convincing. A nice piece of work. Edwininlondon (talk) 17:00, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- I implemented the suggestion. It's a little longer but should be more accessible. Phlsph7 (talk) 07:40, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- 5 makes sense to me as a layman, though obviously I can't speak for its technical accuracy/completeness. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:15, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- I like (5). Edwininlondon (talk) 08:50, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Any mileage in "certain abstract structures, known as algebraic structures", or similar? UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:47, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for generating alternatives, much appreciated. I'd be curious to hear what other FAC reviewers think. In my mini-sample of 2 non-maths people, both raised an eyebrow at "algebraic". Alternative 2 is too technical indeed. Number 3 would be my preferred option. Edwininlondon (talk) 12:24, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes. Almost all fine, except that there still is a lingering sadness in me regarding the opening sentence with its circularity. I don't think the argument that the technical term "algebraic structure" is defined without reference to algebra is particularly strong. But I lack the expertise to provide something useful. Perhaps it is something like "Algebra is ..., known as algebraic structures, ... I was thinking perhaps the part "manipulation of statements within those structures" can be dropped, as that surely is encompassed by the word "studies". But maybe the phrase "manipulation of statements" is rather critical, as it conveys the essence of the field. Sorry, I can't express what is better. Edwininlondon (talk) 12:31, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): Paleface Jack (talk) 23:23, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
An unsuccessful nomination later and some significant copy editing with the help of others, I am renominating this article for a second time. For those of you who don't know about this article it is on an elusive comedy art film. It was directed by artist-turned-filmmaker Fredric Hobbs, and was the first of several that he managed to complete until his retirement from the film industry.Paleface Jack (talk) 23:23, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support on sourcing, comprehensiveness and prose (having opposed the first nom). This seems to be a visually remarkable but lost film, about which very little is known. I commend PFJ for pulling it all together; a fascinating insight into the genesis of the modern horror genre. Ceoil (talk) 00:27, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Many thanks Ceoil! Thouhg it is never classified as horror in any of the sources, it does offer some modern motifs to the genre that are quite fascinating.Paleface Jack (talk) 17:26, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support on sourcing, comprehensiveness and prose per Ceoil. I've had a good hack at the prose and clarified one item in talk. I'm happy that it now meets the standard. John (talk) 18:39, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks John! Paleface Jack (talk) 23:19, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
Support from Gog the Mild
[edit]Recusing to review.
- Cite 23 has a p/pp error.
- Done. Ceoil (talk) 23:22, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Why is cite 16 partially in all-caps? See WP:ALLCAPS.
- Done. Ceoil (talk) 23:19, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Cite 15: "films" should have an upper-case F.
- The article title uses lowercase. Ceoil (talk) 23:19, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- That doesn't matter. All article titles should be given consistently in either title or sentence case regardless of how they appear in the original. (That's why you switched from all caps in the previous comment. :-) )
- Cite 16: the title should be in title case per MOS:CAPTITLES.
- Done. Ceoil (talk) 23:19, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- "and has yet to receive a home media release." It is normal to use phrasing such as 'it has not received a home media release as of August 2024', using Template:Monthyear. Or Template:year if preferred.
- Done except without template as am old and don't understand. Ceoil (talk) 23:22, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- I prefer just mentioning the year, rather than month and year as it seems a bit more in line with the article. Paleface Jack (talk) 19:04, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ok. (I bet I'm even older.)
- "Dispersed throughout the segment are clips of a procession of the blue people proceeding across an otherworldly countryside, accompanied by a strange vehicle. At this point, the segment cuts from the cave ..." "Dispersed throughout the segment ... At this point ..." doesn't work: If something is dispersed throughout, there is no this point to cut from.
- I revised that a little, removing the "at this point and dispersed throughout"--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:07, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- You missed this one.
- I revised that a little, removing the "at this point and dispersed throughout"--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:07, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Plot": the 'The Blue People' section seems over-long and over-detailed to me.
- It's out of proportion to the other two segments, but that's more because the film is lost, and little is known about those two. It's not too long compared to other film FAs covering a third of the film. I would however like to see it cited, given nobody outside of those directly involved have seen it enough to make notes. Maybe it could be more suscintly worded, though I think readers will want to know. Ceoil (talk) 23:33, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- In Thrower's plot synopsis, there are more details with that section than any other portion of the plot. I agree with this assessment and will tone it down a little.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Ceoil I chose to use a footnote rather than an outright citation to save a little confusion of the readers wondering why there is a citation for a plot synopsis (not a lot of articles on fioms have one). It adds a little more reasoning to a citation for any editor coming in cause I have had that trouble before.--Paleface Jack (talk) 03:54, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- "from whose extended arm hangs". Just the one arm?
- The description given by Thrower reads "A female figure reclines, extending her arm from which hangs the faces and forms of flayed humanity. A bird (an owl?) sits triumphantly astride her extended limb, with various grisly horrors dangling below." I had to simplify that because it becomes too confusing and symbolic for the average reader.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- "with a bachelors degree in arts". Do you mean a bachelor of arts degree?
- Done. Ceoil (talk) 23:19, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- If "Trojan Horse" is the name of a sculpture or artwork it should be in italics.
- "it incorporates several different narratives and genres for each segment." Optional: "for" → 'within'.
- Agree....done. Ceoil (talk) 23:19, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Hobbs plays a fictionalized version of himself as the chef and fantom characters." A fantom character is not elsewhere mentioned.
- I looked over that synopsis but it does not mention the character of the Fantom. Yet it credits Hobbs as playing the character. It is very odd.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Linking "Christ" is probably overlinking.
- Agree. Ceoil (talk) 23:19, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Agree and done. Paleface Jack (talk) 19:08, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
This is in much better shape than for its first nomination, well done for sticking with it. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:49, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks. Could not have done it without assistance and advise.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- In Ceoil you have an excellent person on board for that. Nearly there. A couple of comebacks from me above and awaiting further comment or action on the "The Blue People" section. Thinking on't, the "The" of "The Blue People" should only be there if it is a formal title, not if it is being used as part of a descriptor. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:08, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- I agree. The only part I would say that should include "the" is the descriptor of the segment, which includes this in my source.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:00, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks. Could not have done it without assistance and advise.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
SC
[edit]- "homunculus (an artificial human)": That's not quite what a homunculus is – the key part of them is that they are small
- Considering the plot synopsis from my source just calls it a homonculus with descriptions that it is make of cloth, I removed the parentheses portion alltogether.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:46, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Hobbs exits the frame and the film ends": I think there should be a comma after 'frame' between the clauses
- Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:46, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- "The cast mainly drew from unknown actors": I'm not sure the cast drew anything: "The cast was mainly drawn from unknown actors" works much better
- Agreed and done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:46, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Morgan Upton, later known for his roles as Wally Henderson in The Candidate (1972)[26] and Mr. Gilfond in Peggy Sue Got Married (1986)": do we need the role names? Seems a bit too tangential and the details clutters the sentence a bit
- Agreed and done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 16:46, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
Hope these help. - SchroCat (talk) 15:59, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support - SchroCat (talk) 08:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments by Alavense
[edit]- The use of the Oxford comma should be consistent throughout the text. You have It stars Hobbs, Richard Faun, Morgan Upton, Nate Thurmond, Gloria Rossi, and but Hobbs named them in an interview "The Chef", "Alma Mater" and "The Blue People"
- Ah, missed that. THanks for pointing that out. It is fixed now.--Paleface Jack (talk) 17:07, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- a chef wearing ritualistic face paint, begins making - No need for that comma.
- Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 17:07, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- A tall insectoid named Rax (Morgan Upton), exits - No need for that comma either.
- Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 17:07, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Rax, alongside the Attenuated Man, then join a procession of blue people who embrace him as their "savior" - Is there a typo there and should it be "joins"? Or maybe I misunderstood the whole sentence.
- "then joins" sounds incorrect and ebbs the flow, at least for me. Though I am willing to change it if you feel it is better.--Paleface Jack (talk) 17:07, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- The way it is, there's no subject-verb agreement. I think you could say something along the lines of Rax and the Attenuated Man then join a procession of blue people who embrace the former as their "savior". Would that work for you? Alavense (talk) 18:56, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- "then joins" sounds incorrect and ebbs the flow, at least for me. Though I am willing to change it if you feel it is better.--Paleface Jack (talk) 17:07, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- from whose extended arm hangs many faces and shapes
- Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 17:07, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- on a 25-minute - I think it would be better if there were consistency with the note, so either spelled out or in figures, but the same for the three instances.
- Agreed and fixed it.--Paleface Jack (talk) 17:07, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- later known for his roles in The Candidate (1972), and Peggy Sue Got Married (1986) - No need for that comma.
- Done.
- Why is the reference after Hobbs drilled the student activists portraying the characters in the marching sequence to march in step laid out that way? Can't the page just be identified using the {{sfn}} template? It's the only instance of this I've spotted throughout the article.
- It was left over when I was using that format. I removed it now.--Paleface Jack (talk) 17:07, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- The Los Angeles Times should be "the Los Angeles Times".
- Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 17:07, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- The resulting Roseland: A Fable (1970), is - No need for that comma.
- Done.--Paleface Jack (talk) 17:07, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't really understand the "Legacy" section, given that it is nothing to do with the film.
- The legacy of the film was its success, pushing Hobbs forwards to work on several more films. As such, that is why it is included.--Paleface Jack (talk) 17:07, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I understand that, but then it might be better to mention it. Why not say that the film was a success and that it allowed for more projects in a sentence or two at the beginnig of the section? The way it is now, I think it is a bit disconnected from the rest of the article. Alavense (talk) 18:56, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- The legacy of the film was its success, pushing Hobbs forwards to work on several more films. As such, that is why it is included.--Paleface Jack (talk) 17:07, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
That's what I saw. Kind regards, Alavense (talk) 08:59, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks.--Paleface Jack (talk) 17:07, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
Source and image review
[edit]I wonder if File:Troika, 1969 film, press release.png's section on NFCC#8 should be capitalized. Regarding File:Trojan Horse, Troika, 1969, press release.png and File:Troika, 1969 film, WWCC Film Festival poster.jpg, in my experience you struggle to satisfy WP:NFCC#8 if your non-free image only illustrates part of the article topic. Not to mention, the latter's rationale is faulty in several points. I worry about File:SFAI.jpg, as it has no EXIF and TinEye says it was used once on http://www.artltdmag.com/index.php?archive&page=show&subaction=1241825259&ucat=18 before it was uploaded to Wikipedia.
#39 and #40 are mistyped. What makes MatchboxCine a reliable source? Same for " Reference Guide to Fantastic Films: Science Fiction, Fantasy, & Horror". I don't think news articles need an ISSN.
- The Issn is removed. Refs 39 and 40 are fixed now. I tried looking up some of what you are saying about the image of the University appearing in the site you suggested but have found nothing, not sure what "TinEye" is but I am going to replace it with a better one. As for the press release image, it summarizes the film as promotional material. While the festival poster does have some faults, which I will work on, it is mostly a visual reference of renewed exposure of the film. I not sure how I can use that as a fair rationale. For the Matchbox source, while they are an independent film exhibitor, their screenings are covered frequently in reliable magazines and sources such as Glasgow Times, BFI, Dread Central, etc. For The Reference Guide, I am not sure what you are getting at with that.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:48, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Just an Update, I chose to bite the bullet and remove the film festival poster.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:52, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I am not particularly clear on what makes " Reference Guide to Fantastic Films: Science Fiction, Fantasy, & Horror" a reliable source. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:13, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- I will look into it. Some of these literary sources I find on Google Books are self-published, though this one seemed legit enough. I will see if there is any background on the citation to see if it is as high quality as it needs to be.Paleface Jack (talk) 17:37, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- So looking at the author Walt Lee, I can see he was a film writer, and historian. In his Reference Guide to Fantastic Films, much of that information is compiled by film historian and critic Bill Warren. My only hesitation with the source is that it is admittedly self-published. Although my mixed feelings about the source are on the fence as the authors and people behind the source are well-known academics. Paleface Jack (talk) 17:44, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- 1 OK
- 2 Doesn't show up on Google Books.
- Hm. I just tested it and it does for me.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:48, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- 4 Can I have a copy of this page?
- how so?--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:48, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Jo-Jo means could you email them a copy. (Send them a proforma email, they will reply similarly, and you can then send them copies of the pages in question.) Gog the Mild (talk) 20:25, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- how so?--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:48, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- 7 I am not sure what this supports.
- The reference supports Hobbs' work up until the film's production.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:48, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- 9 I am not sure what this supports.
- Same as reference #7.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:48, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- 13 Can I have a copy of this page?
- 14 Link's broken.
- Fixed.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:48, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- 19 OK
- 21 Don't see the Rax-in-ghost-town thing,
- Corrected to just have the citation to note the sculpture appears in the film.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:48, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- 25 I am not sure that "crucified" here is sufficient to conclude that the writer is calling Nate Thurmond's character "Christ-like", and the #28 #25 combined reference doesn't seem to be supported by either.
- The reference uses the wording "Christ-like".--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:48, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- 28 Not sure what this supports.
- The Cast section lists it.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:48, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- 30 Don't see "The "Alma Mater" sequence was shot at the San Francisco Art Institute" in here. Likewise, the #21 #30 combined reference doesn't seem to be supported by either.
- The reference lists Hillsburough. I think I either messed up or copy edits made and error. I fixed it. The 21 and 30 citations do support that props and items from the film were exhibited.--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:48, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- 31 OK
- 33 That snippet is missing a lot of information.
- I fail to see what information is "Missing" as its all in the info. Please clarify--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:48, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Dandelion and double feature aren't mentioned and the JSTOR is broken. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:13, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- That is weird. The Jstor number is correct: https://www.jstor.org/stable/community.28039862 Paleface Jack (talk) 18:23, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Also, switched things so they fit the source. Paleface Jack (talk) 22:03, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Dandelion and double feature aren't mentioned and the JSTOR is broken. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:13, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- I fail to see what information is "Missing" as its all in the info. Please clarify--Paleface Jack (talk) 19:48, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- 36 Can I have a copy of this page?
- 37 Can I have a copy of this page?
- 38 Can I have a copy of this page?
- 40 OK for part of this.
- Which portion is not ok?--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:13, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- The only thing this source supports is that the film has a copy at Berkeley. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:13, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, ok. The Thrower and recent Glasgow Times might be better for that particular blurb then. Paleface Jack (talk) 17:36, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Looking over everything. There seems to be no other place this film is stored at. Paleface Jack (talk) 18:33, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, ok. The Thrower and recent Glasgow Times might be better for that particular blurb then. Paleface Jack (talk) 17:36, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- The only thing this source supports is that the film has a copy at Berkeley. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:13, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Which portion is not ok?--Paleface Jack (talk) 21:13, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- 47 OK
- 51 (Forgot yesterday) This one doesn't support "The resulting Roseland: A Fable (1970) is a surreal satire on the porn industry. The film gained controversy due to its sexual content, which was considered scandalous for a mainstream film at the time" Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:13, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- I removed it, adding something simple. Paleface Jack (talk) 19:07, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): – Hilst (talk | contribs) 22:21, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
This article is about a tour undertaken by a Brazilian football club which quickly spiraled into chaos, becoming more and more unbelievable as it goes on. My first FAC! – Hilst (talk | contribs) 22:21, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
Support from PMC
[edit]Within the week, badger me if I forget. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 01:12, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
Well, slow night at work, so here we are. Please don't be freaked out by the number of comments, I write down everything that comes to mind when reading FACs. Suggested re-phrasings are always suggestions, feel free to do your own thing. If sources don't have info that I'm asking about, don't worry about it. Finally, I'm always open to discussion or disagreement - you're the one who knows the content, and FAC reviewers aren't infallible. And away we go!
Lead
- "looking to raise funds in friendly matches" - phrasing a bit odd here. Maybe "playing friendly matches to raise funds" or "playing friendly matches as a fundraiser"?
- Picked the first phrasing.
- Nice use of "who knows what the truth is" footnote :)
- Thanks! :)
- Sentence two is so, so long. Can it be split?
- Split into two, let me know if it needs to be split further.
- "misfortune, danger, and tragedy" - this feels a bit like over-egging the pudding. Can we pick one?
- Went with misfortune.
- Might link Nazism in Brazil since otherwise it's likely to be confusing (or maybe Brazil in World War II)
- Went with Brazil in World War II.
Natal
- Any details about what the financial crisis was or why it was happening? (Was it related to WW2?)
- Added.
- Link North Region again
- Done.
- For the ignorant among us, how would playing exhibition matches make them money?
- I assume it was through ticket revenue, but none of the sources actually spell it out.
- There's nothing more funny yet annoying than running into a situation like that, where every source is like "obviously everyone will know what a blorbo is, I don't have to explain" and then it turns no one knows what the damn blorbo is because no one explained it
- I assume it was through ticket revenue, but none of the sources actually spell it out.
- Recommend linking Brazil in World War II and maybe noting that German U-boats were patrolling the area, because many people might not realize they were
- Linked.
- Actually, the above three suggestions might fit well in a "Background" section (and you could give some brief background on the team)
- Created the background section.
- Looking good! (years ago I got taught to do Background sections and I've found it's such a help with setting up the rest of the prose)
- Created the background section.
- Is Santa Cruz from Pernambuco? I assume yes, but it's not clear - they could just be visiting there. Good fodder for the background section
- Yes. Added to background section.
- "local state's team" - no link I guess?
- Nope, not even an interlanguage link. :(
- Might want to clarify that Belem is a city, and add the state
- Added the state.
- I don't think "by" is needed when you're giving a whole-game score. You don't "win by" 7-2, you win 7-2, and win by 5 points. See what I mean?
- Removed the "by"s.
- Why is Remo 5 to 3 when everything else is given with a dash? Consistency is important
- Dash'd.
- Might be worth clarifying that all those teams are based in the city of Belém, as that's not clear from context
- Added. Doesn't read too smoothly imo, but it works.
- Are there no details in any sourcing about any of these games?
- There's some small details about them in modern sources, but definitely not anything substantial. Contemporary sources have some more stuff, but I'm not if in-game details really matter that much here, since the article is more about the overarching story than anything.
- Ah, just checking, in case any of them had any disastrous incidents :P
- There's some small details about them in modern sources, but definitely not anything substantial. Contemporary sources have some more stuff, but I'm not if in-game details really matter that much here, since the article is more about the overarching story than anything.
Manaus
- Again, might want to clarify that Manaus is a city, and add the state
- Done.
- Do we know who invited them?
- Clarified in background section.
- Was the head of delegation a player also, or like a coach?
- Clarified in background section.
- I know we don't always link countries, but I think Peru and Guyana are reasonably relevant links here
- Done.
- Link Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Brazil)
- Done.
- I know the answer is likely WW2, but why were clubs not supposed to leave?
- Added.
- "Under the possibility of being suspended for 90 days" - phrasing a bit awkward here
- Suspended from what?
- I don't know, none of the sources elaborate on what the "suspension" would be.
- If they can be suspended for leaving, it's not really a request not to leave, is it?
- Clarified, hopefully.
- I might suggest moving the suspension to the previous sentence, or rewording a bit
- Reworded.
- Suspended from what?
- "relapsed from the dysentery" - "had a relapse of dysentery" is more correct
- Done.
- Are first names known for King and Papeira? If so, please include them on first mention; if not, maybe footnote it (if a roster is known, it might be worth putting one in a table in Background)
- I couldn't find Papeira's first name anywhere. Including only King's name is kind of awkward in my opinion, so I'd rather not add it. Added the roster.
- Fair. You may want to footnote somewhere about names being unknown/the one-word-nickname tradition thing
- Done.
- Fair. You may want to footnote somewhere about names being unknown/the one-word-nickname tradition thing
- I couldn't find Papeira's first name anywhere. Including only King's name is kind of awkward in my opinion, so I'd rather not add it. Added the roster.
- "both having disobeyed previous medical orders" about what?
- Added.
- To be fair I'm not sure I could restrain myself from eating eggs and lobster either
- Added.
- "but all maritime travel was prohibited by the Brazilian government" - since when? they were boating before, no?
- Added date.
Belém
- "Defender Pedrinho" first name thing again
- @Premeditated Chaos: - just jumping in here to point out that Brazilian footballers are generally known by a single name e.g. Pelé, Cafu, Dunga, Tarciso, etc -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:12, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Often, but not always, but I'll leave that to Hilst to confirm if that was the case at this time. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 11:21, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- I believe so, since the majority of the players in the earlier 1938 World Cup squad are listed by a single name. – Hilst (talk | contribs) 00:49, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Often, but not always, but I'll leave that to Hilst to confirm if that was the case at this time. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 11:21, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Premeditated Chaos: - just jumping in here to point out that Brazilian footballers are generally known by a single name e.g. Pelé, Cafu, Dunga, Tarciso, etc -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:12, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Did Pedrinho still get to play in the game?
- I'm not sure if he did play against Remo, but he did play against Paisandu on the 9th. Added.
- "was also a club director, and was interested in the player's abilities." - so... he was going to arrest him then seduce him into joining his own team?
- Correct!
- I'm dying to know how he thought that was going to go, loooool
- "Sidinho, who had defected to the club a week earlier" - who is Sidinho? What is "the club" that he defected to?
- Added him to the roster at the top (confusingly, there's two players named Sidinho, and sources don't agree on how to spell their names...). "To the club" is a typo, it should've just been "defected the club". Rewrote the whole sentence.
- "The club then played..." I would flip the clauses in this sentence and remove "then"
- Done? I'll be honest, I'm not happy with either version
- Fair, I think it works better this way but if you want to change it another way it won't affect my support
- "before the end of the game" could tighten to "during the game"; similarly "After the end of the match" could be tightened to "After the match"
- Done.
- commemorated - I think you might want commiserated instead
- Done.
- "the Taça Cidade de Recife" - the what
- Translated "taça" to "trophy".
- Sure, but what's the trophy for? I thought these were largely exhibition matches?
- Clarified.
- Sure, but what's the trophy for? I thought these were largely exhibition matches?
- "starting the journey back" via? And if by boat, when did the government stop prohibiting maritime travel? (or are we riverboating here)
- Via boat. No idea when they started allowing it again.
- Is it possible to try to track this down? It's just that it sort of presents a thread that can be pulled on. If you can't find it, that's fine.
- No dice.
- Is it possible to try to track this down? It's just that it sort of presents a thread that can be pulled on. If you can't find it, that's fine.
- Via boat. No idea when they started allowing it again.
- Were the trophies valuable in and of themselves?
- Probably? Since they went out of their way to hide them, they probably had some value, but I can't verify it.
- "boat was retained" - I think you want detained
- I think either one works, see wikt:reter#Portuguese.
- Sure but we're not writing in Portuguese; "retain" in English lacks implication of legal matters that "detain" has.
- Done.
- Sure but we're not writing in Portuguese; "retain" in English lacks implication of legal matters that "detain" has.
- I think either one works, see wikt:reter#Portuguese.
- for the Campeonato Pernambucano - context? Even if you just say "the state championship, the Campeonato Pernambucano"
- Done.
Okay! Overall I think this is a well-researched and interesting article. It could use some polishing to get to the FA level, but it's definitely doable and I look forward to seeing it get there. No rush on responses. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 05:49, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Premeditated Chaos: I've addressed all of your comments. Thank you for checking my article! – Hilst (talk | contribs) 22:24, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Hilst:, responses to a few things above, anything not commented on looks fine to me. The question about the value of the trophies has no response - possibly missed? ♠PMC♠ (talk) 05:09, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oh my god, I have no idea how I missed that. Sorry! Unless I've missed something else, @Premeditated Chaos, it's done! sorry for the pings too lmao – Hilst (talk | contribs) 20:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Looks good to me. I'm a support :) ♠PMC♠ (talk) 20:25, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oh my god, I have no idea how I missed that. Sorry! Unless I've missed something else, @Premeditated Chaos, it's done! sorry for the pings too lmao – Hilst (talk | contribs) 20:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Hilst:, responses to a few things above, anything not commented on looks fine to me. The question about the value of the trophies has no response - possibly missed? ♠PMC♠ (talk) 05:09, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
Joeyquism
[edit]Committing to a review in the next couple of days. Congratulations on the successful GAN for this, and welcome to FAC! joeyquism (talk) 01:33, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
@Hilst: Apologies for taking so long to get to this. The article seems to be in pretty good shape after the preliminary reviews before mine; however, for the sake of being comprehensive, I've noted a few things below. Feel free to refuse with justification:
Lead
- The introduction of the term "Suicidal Tour" in the lead feels a bit late. From MOS:BOLDLEAD:
- If an article's title is a formal or widely accepted name for the subject, display it in bold as early as possible in the first sentence:
- The electron is a subatomic particle with a negative elementary electric charge. (Electron)
- Otherwise, include the title if it can be accommodated in a natural way:
- The United States presidential line of succession is the order in which officials of the United States ... (United States presidential line of succession)
- If an article's title is a formal or widely accepted name for the subject, display it in bold as early as possible in the first sentence:
- Perhaps the lead paragraph can have its sentences rearranged and reformatted so that the first sentence refers explicitly to this term? Otherwise, do not fret too much about this critique; I haven't seen it mentioned in other reviewers' comments, so unless that becomes a point of contention, I will not base my final stance on this entirely. Leaving this as a suggestion.
- I thought similar. I have put a proposed draft lead on the talk page of this FAC. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:50, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm liking what you've proposed as a solution. joeyquism (talk) 21:14, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Done.
- I'm liking what you've proposed as a solution. joeyquism (talk) 21:14, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- I thought similar. I have put a proposed draft lead on the talk page of this FAC. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:50, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Not sure if "Brazilian Portuguese" needs to be included before "Excursão da Morte".
- Removed.
- No comma before "due"?
- Not needed with the new lead.
- I'm noticing that Brazil in World War II is linked here; however, it does not appear to be linked anywhere else in the article. Would this be appropriate as a replacement for World War II link in the Background section?
- I think that link would be a bit too MOS:EGGy for my taste.
Background
- I'm a bit confused by "subsist off of their suburban football fields" - is there something about the quality of these fields that using them would be seen as subsistence? Sorry if this is a silly question; I'm mostly just wondering. Feel free to tell me if answering does not seem worthwhile.
- They were subsisting off the revenue from leasing them to other people/clubs. Changed it to "subsist off of the revenue from their suburban football fields".
- What is meant by "buying" here? I'm not into the euphemistic use of words in articles; a clarification would be much better.
- Buying as in paying Transviário so that they would play a few matches against Santa Cruz. Feel free to suggest a reword, I can't think of anything. Removed the quotes around buying.
- The semicolon after "players" should be a colon, as it's coming before a list
- Done.
Natal and Belém
- Would it be worth it to mention that this was a relatively untroubled time for the team during their tour? Just an observation; if sourcing for such a claim is not possible, I'd say it's alright to go without it.
- No source says this as far as I can tell, sorry.
- No double link for Pernambuco; it's linked in the previous section.
- Already done.
- No comma after "lights off"
- Done.
- No comma after "3-3"
- That one was added by Gog, btw. Done.
Manaus
- "Thrice" is a bit of an outdated word; "three times" should be good
- Done.
- "as they were "attracted by good offers" from local teams - Not sure about the quotes again. Is this quote lifted from the sources, or is there some larger situation that is being euphemized by this phrase?
- Lifted from Aragão 1979.
- "two players had a relapse of dysentery" - Did they get dysentery again, or did their health deteriorate as a result of having a sustained case of dysentery? Just wondering.
- The latter, I assume.
Belém to Recife
- "doing evil to a 17-year-old girl" - Same issues as other noted usages of quotes.
- It's a quote from Aragão 1979, who lifted it straight from the mentioned telegram. Rewrote the proceeding sentence slightly so it's easier to determine where it came from. (Also moved the source up since that got left behind in a rewrite.)
- For footnote D, "Some sources incorrectly report the date as 3 March." - Is this known to be incorrect, or is there simply a discrepancy between sources (there is a difference)? If it's the latter, I would remove "incorrectly".
- It's the latter. Done.
- No comma after "Cidade do Recife trophy"
- Done.
- Is there an aftermath/legacy to all of this? Might be a big ask to include, but if there's information/analysis on this tour's impact, I think it would be worth it to include in the article.
- I don't think there is anything out there detailing it's legacy.
Overall, a very nice article on an interesting (albeit tragic) topic. I'll read over it again after my comments have been addressed. Looking forward to hearing back from you, and I hope you're having a wonderful start to your week. joeyquism (talk) 00:32, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Joeyquism: All done! Sorry for taking so long to answer your comments, oops. – Hilst (talk | contribs) 21:51, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Hilst: Looking a lot better! Happy to support this for promotion. joeyquism (talk) 23:45, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments
[edit]- Link football in the lead, so we know exactly which sport we are talking about
- Done.
- In the lead you have "friendly match" (unlinked) but in the body you have "exhibition match" (linked).
- Swapped the links and renamed the second instance to friendly.
- Both should be linked -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:23, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Done.
- Both should be linked -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:23, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Swapped the links and renamed the second instance to friendly.
- "including a lack of funds, the threat of Nazi attacks and deaths" => "including a lack of funds, the threat of Nazi attacks, and deaths"
- Done.
- Link the club again in the body (and also show full name, like in the lead)
- Done.
- "where they beat Transviário Esporte Clube 7–2, Tuna Luso 3–1" => "where they beat Transviário Esporte Clube 7–2 and Tuna Luso 3–1"
- Done.
- "drew with the Pará state team 3–3, 4–4 with Paysandu" => "drew 3–3 with the Pará state team and 4–4 with Paysandu"
- Done.
- "While the team's delegation intended for the matches in Belém to be the last ones of the excursion" => "Although the team's delegation intended for the matches in Belém to be the last ones of the excursion"
- Done.
- "they lost their first game in Amazonas to Olímpico by 3–2" => "they lost their first game in Amazonas 3–2 to Olímpico"
- Done.
- "the head of delegation and six players" => "the head of the delegation and six players"
- Done.
- "Defender Pedrinho was sent an arrest warrant" - I am pretty sure that arrest warrants are not sent to the suspect. Maybe "An arrest warrant was issued for defender Pedrinho"
- Fixed.
- "being accused of "doing evil to a 17-year-old girl"" => "as he was accused of "doing evil to a 17-year-old girl""
- Done.
- "It turned out that the police officer who ordered his arrest was also a club director" - which club?
- No idea, none of the sources mention it by name.
- "Santa Cruz entering the field before a game in Belém." - this doesn't need a full stop
- Removed.
- Do we really need the exact time of King's death and (particularly) funeral? If you feel we do, I think they should be shown using the 12-hour clock i.e. 2.35am and 4.00pm
- Removed the funeral time. I believe the 24-hour format is more appropriate here, since that's the one that is used in Brazil.
- "At 16:30,[16] before the end of the game" => "At 4.30pm,[16] before the end of the game"
- See above.
- "but had to return to São Luís due a thunderstorm" => "but had to return to São Luís due to a thunderstorm"
- Fixed.
- "The players then decided to go to Teresina, Piauí, via train" => "The players then decided to go to Teresina, Piauí, by train"
- Done.
- "Papeira's briefcase was given to his family, but King's briefcase could not be returned" - just a guess as I can't read the source but I suspect they were suitcases rather than briefcases
- Done.
-- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:17, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- @ChrisTheDude: Done all, thanks for commenting! – Hilst (talk | contribs) 22:24, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
More comments
[edit]- "buying a five-game season for five million Brazilian réis per match" - what does this mean? They had to pay 25 million reis to undertake the tour? Would that not make their finances worse rather than better?
- In the short-term, yes, but I assume the revenue they got from those first few matches was enough to cover the costs.
- "it took two weeks for the squad to arrive to the state of Amazonas" => "it took two weeks for the squad to arrive in the state of Amazonas"
- Done.
- "Three players, Cidnho, Omar and França" - first name seems to be spelt wrong
- Fixed.
- "Papeira played barefoot" - when? This section seems to be describing a journey and doesn't reference any matches
- I don't know. None of the sources say when.
- "He would play for Santa Cruz shortly after" => "He would play for Santa Cruz shortly afterwards"
- Done.
- "Santa Cruz suffered their first casualty shortly after" => "Santa Cruz suffered their first casualty shortly afterwards"
- Done.
-- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:53, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- @ChrisTheDude: All done! – Hilst (talk | contribs) 19:58, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support - BTW, I find it a little bizarre that this tour has its own stand-alone article but literally isn't mentioned at all on the cub's article.... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:26, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
Support from Gog the Mild
[edit]Recusing to review.
- "they played over 25 matches". Is the exact number of matches played not known? Ok, one needs to read the unobtrusive note. Suggest 'they played either 26 or 28 matches'.
- PS. The lead is meant to be a summary of the main article, but I can't see this mentioned in the latter.
- I think you missed this one.
- Oops. I'm a bit confused by this suggestion: should I add they played either 26 or 28 matches to the main article or should I change the note to say that?
- IMO this important enough to be included in the lead - your suggestion works - rather than buried in a note. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:56, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- Done.
- IMO this important enough to be included in the lead - your suggestion works - rather than buried in a note. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:56, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oops. I'm a bit confused by this suggestion: should I add they played either 26 or 28 matches to the main article or should I change the note to say that?
- I think you missed this one.
- Leads are not usually cited, as they are summaries of the main articles, which will be cited.
- Removed.
- "and had to subsist off of their football grounds". I don't understand how their grounds (why plural?) helped them financially.
- I assume it was through leasing them to third parties. Changed wording so its closer to what's said in the source.
- "and the monthly payments from their associates." What associates? I mean, are we even talking people or organisations? And why were they paying money to the club?
- People. Associates in this case are fans who pay a monthly/annual fee for benefits like discounted ticket prices and merchandise. Check out the second paragraph of Sports club § Organization
- When I ask a question I am not asking it for my benefit, but for that of future readers. You have given a fine succinct explanation in answer to my query, along with a link. Could it be incorporated in line in the article?
- I think incorporating it inline makes the paragraph too clunky. I've trimmed the explanation down a bit and added it as a note.
- When I ask a question I am not asking it for my benefit, but for that of future readers. You have given a fine succinct explanation in answer to my query, along with a link. Could it be incorporated in line in the article?
- "Santa Cruz's directors decided to take a "quick spin" in the North Region". Why the colloquialism and the unattributed quote? 'take a short tour' would be more encyclopedic.
- It's a quote from Aragão 1979. Replaced.
- When quoting, bear in mind the MoS on quotations: "[t]he source must be named in article text if the quotation is an opinion". Emphasis in original.
- Who or what were "Transviário Esporte Clube"?
- Clarified.
- "The tour started at the height of World War II". What does at the height of mean. Perhaps 'in the middle of'.
- Done.
- "Due to fears of possible Nazi submarine attacks". Replace "Nazi" with 'German'.
- Done.
- "Afterwards, Santa Cruz traveled to" → 'Afterwards, the delegation traveled to'.
- Done.
- "Although the team's delegation intended for the matches in Belém". Suggest deleting "for".
- Done.
- "The club left for Manaus on 25 January". I suggest you stick with "delegation" throughout.
- Done.
- In the first paragraph of the Manaus section I suggest that you make it clear that they were travelling up the Amazon River.
- Done.
- "both having disobeyed the medical orders." What were the medical orders, and in what way were they disobeyed?
- They're defined in the previous paragraph. Clarified.
- "Santa Cruz intended to return ..." This reads oddly. Firstly, in what way is the football club synonymous with the delegation; secondly, I don't see how a football club is capable of intentionality, this is usually reserved for people.
- Changed to delegation.
- A map of Brazil showing the key places mentioned would greatly help.
- Costa 2020 has such a map, but I don't know its copyright status. I could make a free map, but I have no experience with this sort of thing.
- Oh the fun I had (not) doing maps for my first two FACs! So I left myself some notes and a couple of examples at User:Gog the Mild/Misc#Maps. I have added the start of a Brazil map at the bottom - see how good to you I am. The map documentation is at Template:Location map many. The Wikipedia article on each location has its coordinates at the top right, click to get a conversion to decimal. You should be able to take it from there to fill in the other locations. Have fun and shout if you have queries.
- Lol, thanks. Done.
- Perhaps add the location of Santa Cruz's home ground? Gog the Mild (talk) 13:28, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Done.
- Perhaps add the location of Santa Cruz's home ground? Gog the Mild (talk) 13:28, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Lol, thanks. Done.
- Oh the fun I had (not) doing maps for my first two FACs! So I left myself some notes and a couple of examples at User:Gog the Mild/Misc#Maps. I have added the start of a Brazil map at the bottom - see how good to you I am. The map documentation is at Template:Location map many. The Wikipedia article on each location has its coordinates at the top right, click to get a conversion to decimal. You should be able to take it from there to fill in the other locations. Have fun and shout if you have queries.
- "An arrest warrant was sent for defender Pedrinho". What do you mean by "was sent for"?
- They received a telegram from Manaus ordering his arrest. Rewrote sentence.
- "the police officer who ordered his arrest was also a club director". Of which club? Santa Cruz?
- Not mentioned in sources.
- "Santa Cruz suffered their first casualty shortly thereafter". Suggest 'Santa Cruz suffered their first casualty shortly after'.
- Done.
- "being accompanied by a large crowd." Suggest deleting "being".
- Done.
- "Due to King's death, Cidinho, who had defected from Santa Cruz a week earlier, returned to the club." Who was Cidinho, why did he "defect", what does "defect" mean here, and why did King's death cause him to return?
- A player; he left so he could join another club in Manaus, see the last paragraph of the Manaus section; defect as in abandon (wording used in a source, can change if needed); I don't know.
- How come we know that Cidinho returned "due" to King's death, but not why? It seems odd and reads very oddly.
- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Costa 2020 only says:
Because of his teammate's death, Sidinho gave up on leaving the delegation and going to play in Manaus.
I agree that it's quite odd. I can remove it if you want me to.- Bleh! How would you feel about replacing "due" with 'after'? Thus removing guesses at Cidinhos's motivation.
- Done.
- Bleh! How would you feel about replacing "due" with 'after'? Thus removing guesses at Cidinhos's motivation.
- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Costa 2020 only says:
- How come we know that Cidinho returned "due" to King's death, but not why? It seems odd and reads very oddly.
- "A minute of silence was held before the match." It would be more usual to say 'A minute of silence was observed before the match.'
- Done.
- What is "the Cidade do Recife trophy"?
- I believe its just a random tournament Paysandu made up for a symbolic gift. The source says that "the Paysandu board [offered] the club the Cidade do Recife Trophy, played between those two great clubs and which ended in a draw for each team."
- "substituting for an injured teammate." The cook won't have been a teammate of the injured player. Better to say something like 'injured member of the delegation'.
- I think "substituting for an injured player" is the best option here.
- Yes, that works.
- "The players returned to playing football on 2 May". "returned to"? They had just played 26/28 matches.
- Changed.
- You state it is disputed whether 26 or 28 matches were played, then list every one. Which two are disputed?
- Not every match is listed. I don't know which ones are disputed, Aragão 1979 doesn't list all of them.
Gog the Mild (talk) 22:06, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Looking good. A few comebacks above. If I have not responded, assume I'm happy. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:41, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- At the moment "The tour became known as the Suicidal Tour (Brazilian Portuguese: Excursão Suicída) and the Death Tour (Brazilian Portuguese: Excursão da Morte)" is in the lead, the summary, but I don't see anything in the main article to be so summarised. Am I missing something? Gog the Mild (talk) 19:59, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not really sure how that should be included in the article. It feels out of place in "Belém to Recife", and it doesn't really merit it's own section.
- Putting it at the end of Belém to Recife seems ok to me. Or retitle the section. (Return home and aftermath?) The number of matches they played also needs to go in somewhere.
- After combing through sources, I couldn't find anything about how it became known as that. I don't think that info is really needed anymore since the lead got reworded. Added the match number.
- Putting it at the end of Belém to Recife seems ok to me. Or retitle the section. (Return home and aftermath?) The number of matches they played also needs to go in somewhere.
- @Gog the Mild: All done! – Hilst (talk | contribs) 21:51, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- A couple more come backs. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:56, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Gog the Mild: Done! – Hilst (talk | contribs) 17:52, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- A couple more come backs. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:56, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
source review from sawyer777
[edit]an interesting topic and it looks like no one's done a source review yet, so i'll do one this weekend probably. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 04:19, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
alright, getting to it.
- the sources seem perfectly reliable for this topic; we've got some sports publications and good Brazilian newspapers.
- Guedes (2023) probably does not need to be a shortened footnote if it's not paginated/sectioned.
- Turned into full ref.
- not all citations have ISSNs - where they're available, this is useful info to add & will make the cites more consistent.
- Done.
- all of the sources are in Brazilian Portuguese, so i'll be relying on machine translation for spot-checks. if any Lusophones happen upon this page and take issue with my assessment, i defer to them.
- spot-check as of this revision:
- ref 2a - good
- ref 5b - good
- ref 11a - good
- ref 15c - good
- ref 23e - good
i will continue combing through in case i notice anything else. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 22:04, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- SC
As I watched Santa Cruz play a few times when I lived in Recife, it's great to see them at FAC - comments to follow shortly. - SchroCat (talk) 09:48, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Lead
- This is really short and doesn't really do the article justice. There's a lot of information that could be used to give a more complete picture of the tour.
- You need to identify where SC were from. At the moment, people have to get into the body to find out one of the key bits of information about the team.
- The image is great, but I think you should make it a bit easier to identify the two dead players, as the two crosses aren't terribly clear. Highlighting, (such as like this) would work.
- Background
- "The club had poor performances" is a slightly cumbersome (and misleading!) sentence. May be worth rephrasing slightly as:
The team were performing poorly, and the club owed wages to several of its staff, and had to subsist off the revenue from their suburban football fields and the monthly payments from their associates.[c][4]
- "Santa Cruz's directors" -> "The club's directors"
- "tour in the North Region" -> "tour of the North Region"
- "participate in" -> "play"
- As with the comments below, I also don't understand "buying a five-game season for five million Brazilian réis per match" – you may need to clarify this a little
- Natal and Belém
- For WP:ACCESS compliance, the caption should read "Santa Cruz's home city of Recife is marked with a blue dot."
- "against the local state's team" -> "against the state team". (I presume this either doesn't exist any more, or was a 'special' team made up of the best of the other local teams?)
- "Afterwards, the delegation traveled" -> "The delegation then traveled" (they couldn't have travelled before or during)
- Manaus
- "plenty of fruits and vegetables" -> "plenty of fruit and vegetables"
- You need to show a conversion for the nautical miles. Use {{convert|10|nmi|km mi|spell=in}}, which gives you "ten nautical miles (19 km; 12 mi)"
- Belém to Recife
- "to gather more money" -> "to earn money"
- "The story was fake, and the player was never arrested". You've already said the story was fake, so no need to repeat that, unless you turn it to: "As the accusation was falsified, the player was never arrested"
- I think you can upscale the picture a bit – add
upright=1.2|
to the markup to get it to a better size - King's death: do we need to know the time? I think we can just stick with the date here.
- "At 16:30,[21]": I dislike citations so early in a sentence, partly because they distract readers, but partly because all this is supporting is the fact that the time 16:30 happened: it doesn't support that the news broke at this time (that's all in the next set of citations at the end of the sentence). This should be moved to the end to join the others.
- "ship's cook as a player, substituting for an injured player" -> "ship's cook, substituting for an injured player" – no loss of comprehension and avoids the double 'player'
- "presence of German submarines in the sea": you don't need the last three words (where else would they be?)
- "either 26,[1] or 28 matches": that comma isn't needed
- Citations
- Is there a reason you've provided a translation for some of the BrPort sources (FNs 6, 9, 12, 19, 20 and 24), but not the others?
- I hope these help. - SchroCat (talk) 12:34, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments by Alavense
[edit]- buying a five-game season for five million Brazilian réis per match - I don't understand what that means.
- The team's delegation consisted of sixteen players, a president, who also acted as the treasurer and the team's coach; and a referee from the Pernambuco Sports Federation - I think this would read more clearly like this: "The team's delegation consisted of sixteen players, a president—who also acted as the treasurer and the team's coach—and a referee from the Pernambuco Sports Federation".
- Afterwards, the delegation traveled to Belém, Pará, playing five games against Belém-based teams - Maybe "against teams based in that city"?
and subsequently lost to Remo 5–3 - I think it would be better to write the result from the perspective of the team the article deals with, so 3–5. There are other instances of this throughout the text.- Jumping in here to mention that, while I can't speak for Brazil, certainly in my part of the world, the norm in "football speak" is always to express scores with the larger number first regardless of which team's perspective it is being referenced from e.g. "Manchester United lost 2-0 against West Ham in the Premier League at the London Stadium" (not 0-2), "a game Wales lost 4-0" (not 0-4), "Chelsea lost 5-0 to Arsenal in the Premier League showdown on Tuesday night" (not 0-5), "Leicester City suffered a 1-0 defeat" (not 0-1) and so forth. "They lost 3-5" would look odd to most football fans..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:55, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- My bad, then. Ignore what I said there. Thank you, ChrisTheDude. Kind regards, Alavense (talk) 14:15, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Besides, use {{nbnd}} for the results.
- Manaus, Amazonas should be "Manaus, Amazonas," for consistency's sake.
- ordering the arrest of defender Pedrinho, which accused him of - Maybe it's "who was accused of" what you mean?
- with either 26, or 28 matches - No need for that comma.
That's what I saw. Kind regards, Alavense (talk) 09:54, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): Wtfiv (talk) 18:21, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
This article is about the Battle of Saipan in June 1944. Because it was underway at the same time as the Normandy landings in France, it is less well known. It was the first invasion of the Mariana and Palau Islands campaign. The invasion triggered the Battle of the Philippine Sea, which effectively destroyed the Japanese navy's airpower. The island's capture pierced the Japanese defense perimeter and provided the American forces with an island base that put the Japanese home islands in range of the B-29 bombers. The fall of the island led to the collapse of the Japanese cabinet with the resignation of Hideki Tōjō, the prime minister of Japan.
The article has passed an A-class review and the images have been reviewed by Hawkeye7. Wtfiv (talk) 18:21, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
Image review
- Suggest scaling up the maps
- Updated three maps of campaign progress to upright =1.2
- Some images are missing alt text
- Alt text added to 27th infantry moving inland, troops moving through Garapan in flames
- File:Garapan_Fire,_Saipan,_3_July_1944.jpg: the licensing here is contradictory - is this PD or CC? Nikkimaria (talk) 05:23, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Updated licensing to PD; it is part of the Marine archives.Wtfiv (talk) 16:28, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
Matarisvan
[edit]I was one of the reviewers at A class and found this article to be a comprehensive review of the battle. I can happily support for promotion to A class on the general text quality. On source formatting, I would suggest adding archive URLs for the National Park Service source in the Online sources section, and also for Trefalt 2018, the only two sources we don't have archive URLs for. I will be doing a source review tomorrow. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 17:53, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you Matarisvan,
- I added the archive link for the National Park Service. I couldn't archive the convenience link for Trefalt as it is behind academia.edu's server, but the doi is available for readers, who have access to the journal. Wtfiv (talk) 21:42, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- The source formatting review is a pass then. Here goes the source review:
- All sources are from reliable publishers.
- #3, #8, #21, #68, #81, #172, #267, #287: all ok.
- #124: ok but only Shaw, Nalty and Turbladh 1989 has the required supporting text, I could not find any in Harmsen 2021. Perhaps you should remove the latter.
- #153: For this text, "Less than a half hour after the start of the amphibious invasion", p. 63 would be the correct one, not p. 64. For the other use of this ref number, p. 64 is correct. You will have to separate the two.
- Matarisvan (talk) 07:58, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- For #124, The Harmsen citation and its associated convenience link were corrected to p. 62, which discusses the first night's assault; #153 was corrected to p. 63. Wtfiv (talk) 15:58, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- The source review is a pass then. Also I'd really appreciate it if you could check out a PR I opened recently, linked here. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 16:06, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- For #124, The Harmsen citation and its associated convenience link were corrected to p. 62, which discusses the first night's assault; #153 was corrected to p. 63. Wtfiv (talk) 15:58, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- The source formatting review is a pass then. Here goes the source review:
Hawkeye 7
[edit]I reviewed this at A-class and looks good to me. But to prove I read it:
- "Nagumo" is misspelt as "Nagamo"
Hawkeye7 (discuss) 08:37, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, Hawkeye7! I fixed it. Wtfiv (talk) 14:48, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
Support from Hurricanehink
[edit]I figured I should review it since I have an FAC open too.
- "Organized resistance ended when at least 3,000 Japanese soldiers died in the final gyokusai attack" - eesh I had to look up what gyokusai was. I'm not sure what I expected, but I think a brief description here, either wave or swarming. I also noticed that gyokusai redirects to Banzai charge. Any reason for this particular wording here? I'm not familiar with the subject matter, just the first thing I've noticed.
- " and left Japan vulnerable to strategic bombing" - you mention this in the third lead paragraph, but it's also in the first. I'm not sure if the material in the first paragraph should be moved to the third, since that all kind of lumps together the aftermath of the battle.
- removed repeat of strategic bombing in lead, taking out mention of strategic bombing from the fourth paragraph, but left it in the first since it is important.
- Is it worth mentioning the brief history of Saipan being taken by Japan/Germany/US as part of the background? The US was kind of taking the island back, and it never gave it up after the war. Or furthermore, there isn't even much of a background to the Pacific campaign, just starting the narrative in 1944. I see you mention more history under "geography", but that kind of feels like "background" to me.
- Changed section name to "History and Geography". The US occupied Guam before the war, but not Saipan. The Saipan became a Japanese possession, part of the mandates, immediately after World War I.
- I notice that two times you use "nmi", without ever using the term "nautical mile". I was only familiar with the abbreviation because tropical cyclone articles (which I usually focus on) often have their units listed in nautical miles/knots, which we always convert since the average reader probably doesn't know what they are. Considering you mostly use imperial with metric units in parenthesis, I don't think you need the nmi, unless you think otherwise.
- " 81 and 91 inches" - convert to metric please. Ditto "seven miles"
- nmi removed, rainfall has cm conversions, seven miles now has kilometers.
- "The largest towns on the island–the administrative center of Garapan with its population of 10,000, Charan Kanoa, and Tanapag–were on the western coast of the island, which was where the best landing beaches for an invasion were. " clunky wording here
- reworded, breaking it into two sentences.
- "Nimitz assigned Admiral Raymond Spruance, " - I had to scroll up to remember who Nimitz was. Maybe remind the reader his significance, since it's the start of a section (Opposing forces). Kinda similarly when you say "the amphibious landings of Forager". I had to look up what Forager was again. Not a huge deal, but to a non-military expert, it might be helpful to have a few more reminders.
- added that Nimitz was commander of the Pacific Fleet. Replaced "Forager" with "Mariana Islands"
- Over 60,000 troops were assigned to the assault:[b] Approximately 22,000 were in each Marine division and 16,500 in the 27th Infantry Division. - I'm not sure the use of the colon after assault:
- Colon deleted
- "6 June 1944" - this stood out to me that your date format is European. Saipan is a US territory now, and most of the US uses Month and Day, not Day then Month. Is there a reason you chose this date format?
- I wanted to keep the format consistent with this article's companion article, Battle of Tinian. Tinian was the next island invaded a month after Saipan. (It's about three miles from Saipan.) I kept the format of that article because it passed both the A-class review and is a featured article using the DD Month Year format.
- "This made the defenses brittle." - is "brittle" the best word here? I'm not familiar with military terms here, and I'm not sure if "weak" is better, but maybe there's a better word out there than a word that makes me think of brittle candy.
- "brittle" changed to "weak"
- Battle
- "On 11 June, over 200 F6F Hellcats from the Fast Carrier Task Force launched a surprise attack on Japanese airfields in Saipan and Tinian..." - we don't have an exact number?
- "which began around 08:40" - timezone? Is this local time? Washington time? Coordinated Universal Time?
- Here I followed MOS:TIMEZONE which states that event times should be given in the time zone in which the event occurred.
- That's fair, but anytime I deal with anything time specific, it's helpful to clarify with a note. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:47, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Here I followed MOS:TIMEZONE which states that event times should be given in the time zone in which the event occurred.
- Hurricanehink, I assume that for the American sources, time would be based on the WWII version of Military time zone (Zulu time) Saipan's military time zone falls within K time (or Kilo time), GMT+10. But none of the sources clarify this. Wtfiv (talk) 19:31, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Is there a reason "8000 men" doesn't have a comma for 8,000? Also, is this exact or about?
- Added "around" before 8000. Followed MOS:DIGITS, which states that commas are optional for four digit numbers.(Added comma)
- I see "pillbox" is linked in the pic farther down in the article than when it's mentioned for the first time in prose.
- Linked first occurrence of pillbox in main text.
- "He proposed to indefinitely postpone the 18 June invasion of Guam." - I'm guessing that happened? There's nothing else of this
- Added footnote that the Invasion of Guam took place on 21 July.
- "Intelligence had estimated that there were no more than 300 Japanese soldiers in the area" - do we know what intelligence? It might be better saying "Advanced reconnaissance" or "Spies" or however they estimated that, than starting with "Intelligence", which is odd to me as a civilian.
- Replaced "Intelligence" with "Smith". This follow's Lacey's wording.
- Why does the "American firepower" section appear under "25-30 June: Central Saipan, breakthrough"? I noticed that the Sherman tanks were already mentioned previously, just not in as much detail. I wonder if the "American firepower" should appear under "Opposing forces" under the American section? I think I see the logic having it where it is now: the American firepower allowed for this turning point. Right now parts of the section feels like it disrupts the narrative, considering what came before it. All of that said, the tanks with flamethrowers sounds fucking badass, which is partly why I think that needs to be highlighted better in the article than where it is. This section is what caught my eye:
- "The Americans had other assets as well. Over 150 tanks–over 100 of which were M4 Sherman tanks–had been committed to the invasion.[204] The M4 Sherman tank was superior to the Japanese Type 97 tank.[205] It was primarily used to support infantry and was considered one of the most effective weapons for destroying enemy emplacements.[206] Flame throwers were extensively used. Smith had seen the need for motorized flamethrowers and had requested that the Army's Chemical Warfare Service (CWS) in Hawaii install them in M3 Stuart tanks. Seabees with the CWS had 24 tanks, nicknamed "Satans", converted to flamethrowing in time for the invasion. They were very effective for destroying pillboxes, cave defenses, buildings, canefields, and brush."
- Moved the section on the tanks to "Opposing Forces". Kept the sections on artillery and portable flame-throwers in this section, as this is when they were actively deployed.
- "But his army's cohesion was disintegrating. Some of the remaining forces moved north, others holed up in whatever caves they could find and put up sporadic, disorganized resistance." - I noticed a few times earlier where a sentence started with "But", which felt clunky. And then the second part felt like it was missing a word, or a semicolon. Maybe "while others holed up"?
- Reworded sentences. Removed initial "But". Removed some of the other lead "But's" too.
- "On 4 July, the 27th Infantry Division and 4th Marine Division headed northwest. The 27th division reached the east coast at Flores Point, south of Tanapag" - wait is the 27th the same for both sentences here? How did it go northwest and end up east? Going around the tip of the island, I'm guessing? If so, maybe clarify that?
- That should have read "west coast at Flores Point". Fixed
- "and inflicting 80% casualties" - the rest of the article used exact number of casualties, not percentages, so I suggest using an exact number if you can.
- Added "about 900 casualties". I left 80% as a clause to illustrate the magnitude of the loss.
- "who survived the last banzai charge" - see my earlier comment about gyokusai or banzai, as long as it's consistent.
- Changed to gyokusai.
- "Eventually 1700" - why no comma?
- Added comma. (MOS:DIGITS states that commas are optional for four digit numbers.)
- " It was the Americans' most costly battle in the Pacific up to that time." - seems to have been deadly, not costly, unless I'm mistaken
- Changed to "deadly"
- What is "ordnance "?
- replaced with "shells during the battle".
- "Hirohito only accepted Saipan's eventual fall on 25 June when his advisors told him all was lost" - in 1944 or 1945? The last year mentioned was 1945, so I have to ask
- added 1944
All in all an interesting read about a battle I knew nothing about! Well done all around. Most of my notes should be pretty easy to fix/address (I hope). Lemme know if you have any questions. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:53, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for your comments, Hurricanehink. I've responded. Do these address the issues you pointed out? Wtfiv (talk) 18:30, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Absolutely, thanks so much for the quick responses! Happy to support now. Good work on this. I don't usually read military articles, but I found this fairly easy to follow. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:08, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Source review
[edit]Source formatting seems consistent. Are "free Press" and "Metro books" really lowercase? Is Samuel Eliot Morison a reliable source? Some of what it says raises questions. Is http://www.historytoday.com/ a high-quality reliable source? In terms of reliability, it seems like we are working with good sources ... but even with WP:NONENG the fact that English and US-affiliated sources are almost the entire source body raises some WP:UNDUE concerns. Are there really no Japanese sources on the battle? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:40, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Capitalization: "Free Press" and "Metro Books" have been fixed.
- Morison as a source source: "New Guinea and the Marianas, March 1944–August 1944." is part of the History of United States Naval Operations in World War II. It is not a perfect source, as the article points out. Unlike the United States Marines and the United States Army, the United States Navy never published an official history. Morison's is the closest it comes. The Navy stated that Morison's history was not its official history. His advantage however, is that the navy gave him access to its records, gave him an office office in the Navy Department under the Director of Naval Records and History while writing the book, and a staff of assistance. See the Naval Command and Heritage site for a review of Morison. Morison's strength is clearly one of the reference sources for later histories of the Pacific War, including Ian Toll's Pacific War Trilogy and Hornfischer. (see Hornfischer's review of Morison here.) In using Morison as a source, I did not use his analyses or assumptions of motivations. I used what he had access to, (e.g., ship number, troops, information about plans, and the like.)
- Japanese sources: My contributions tend to aim to a close adherence WP:NONENG when possible, though I will provide foreign language sources with a quote and translation when they make a critical point (see Frederick the Great or Joan of Arc). One of the major problems in most writing about the island warfare in the Pacific is that almost all the Japanese witnesses died. Testimony from Japanese survivors interrogated by the military is included in the article. I did include English-language works from Japanese-speaking scholars studying the Pacific War. These include Tanaka, Irokawa, Kawamura, and Hiroyuki. The former three have author links with their sources. They mainly focus on how the battle impacted Japanese decision making at the grand strategic level.
- Ironically, one of the major sources for the Japanese military perspective on the island-as cited in the English-language sources- was Takashi Hirakushi. Almost all contemporary histories still cite him as a source, but as a footnote in the article suggests, his first-person testimony may not be reliable. Much of his testimony was initially shared under the name of an officer who had actually died in the fighting, and his story changed over time (cf., Hoffman's version written in the 1950s and Toland's summary based his interviews with Hirakushi in World War II), and some statements are contradicted by interrogations of other survivors. Problems with the details can be found in footnote h in the article. The sources in the footnote provide more information. I've provided convenience links to the sources wherever possible so English-speaking readers can verify the information themselves.
- Wtfiv (talk) 15:51, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- oops, forgot about the Hughes. Removed it and replaced with Atroth.
- Also,with respect to Japanese sources: Trefalt is an English-speaking source, but her article gives a critical treatment of civilians in Saipan in her analysis of civilian survivor's diaries. Wtfiv (talk) 16:34, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): SerialNumber54129 17:20, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
One prince promised a throne, another prince denied a throne, a queen spurned, a king humiliated, and all because of an agreement that satisfied no one and angered most. Accord... it didn't.
Let me know what you think! Many thanks! Cheers! SerialNumber54129 17:20, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
Image review
- What's the benefit of the footers on the multi-images? They seem to duplicate captions
- File:EdwardPrinceOfWalesBeauchampPagaent.jpg: source link is dead. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:20, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks Nikkimaria, I've linked to the original publication, all PD by now. I have also removed the duplicate footers. They was, as you say, not achieving much. SerialNumber54129 12:23, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
SC
[edit]"One prince promised a throne, another prince denied a throne, a queen spurned, a king humiliated, and all because of an agreement that satisfied no one and angered most: sounds like a slightly stretched metaphor for the Tories at the time of Brexit. Have a couple of other things on my plate at the moment, but will be along to look over this. - SchroCat (talk) 10:14, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, great analogy! With the rest of the country all looking at em and wondering how much more they can completely balls things up! SerialNumber54129 12:23, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- General
- There are seven uses of "however" in the text, which is probably at least six too many! I've skipped the lead for now, but will finish off with it
- Only one 'however' left, in a footnote.
- Background
- Note one seems a bit out of place here. It starts off talking about 'The labels "York and Lancaster"' , when neither of the terms have yet been used in the body.
- Indeed. Moved to 2nd para; now note 2.
- "when a York had won": again, the York-Lancs division hasn't been raised in the body yet, and the reader needs to pre-understand the situation before getting to this. I think a sentence or two explaining why the politics was "partisan and factional" and who was involved in the "intermittent rises in violence and local disorder". It's a background section, so you're allowed to give a bit of potted history for people to understand rest.
- Expanded the recent history; always clearly of getting carried away on the old hobbyhorse.
- "Salisbury marched": A fleeting image of a whole town (houses and all), marching cross country popped into my mind here! Maybe full title and link (plus identification of what side he's on)
- Clarified in discussion of Yorkists.
- "York went into exile": ditto
- Ditto.
- "Warwick and Edward of March": Ditto
- Ditto
- "in Calais": probably best to add that this is in France – not everyone will know it's in a different country to the rest of the action
- Done.
- "In the nine months since the Yorkists' exile": I know the tense sits well with the subsequent quote, but the grammar is a little off. "In the nine months following the Yorkists' exile" would be more in line with expectations
- Thanks, adjusted.
- "The Calais lords returned to England in May 1459": Just checking on the date: they returned before they were attainted by the Parliament of Devils?
- H'mm Ludlow castle a time machine? Bigger on the inside that on the out?! but changed, just in case it wasn't :)
More to follow - SchroCat (talk) 16:27, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
- York's claim
- There's a bit of a mismatch between the text and the tree which jars a bit. The text refers to John of Gaunt who isn't named as such in the tree, but as John, Duke of Lancaster. It took a long moment for me to dredge that up from my memory, and others—particularly who haven't been through the British education system—won't be able to make the connection at all. Same problem for Richard of Conisburgh of the text, who is the tree's Richard, Earl of Cambridge.
- Adjusted their titles; added ordinal numbers for York, Lancaster and March, added death dates. Mass complicated table tab
- " Anne's grandmother, Philippa of Clarence, was the daughter of Lionel of Antwerp": Do we need to know this? I can't see the relevance
- No, removed.
- "argues Brondarbit": who he?
- New York comedian and PhD Winchester. Nice bloke. Knows what to do with cold canapes and warm wine.
- "when he landed": who is the 'he' here? I'm a bit lost in this bit with a plethora of names and a lot of 'he's being used – may need just a bit of a brush up for clarity
- Hopefully, some names have been clarified? Replacing 'he'.
- "says Ross": who?
- Linked.
- "but having been unable to do so": grammar ever so slightly off here. Maybe "but had been unable to do so"?
- Excellent, thanks.
Next sections and more to come. I can only echo Tim's words that I think this would possibly have done better with a PR first to iron out some of the wrinkles. – SchroCat (talk) 07:33, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
Recommencing with some minor tweaks and a support. Once comment, however: you need to decide whether you use King or king, as you have, for example, "The King was weak-willed" and "the king's efforts at reconciliation" running throughout. Consistency would be best. - SchroCat (talk) 11:43, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks SchroCat, and I appreciate the edits. Well caught! On K/kings, my personal preference—I think an increasingly popular one today—is king for a no name, but King when named. So, e.g., 'the king said', 'the king went', etc, but 'King Henry said' and 'King Henry went'. but do the MOS:HEADS preclude such simplicity in favour of something more esoteric that allows them all to argue for 5,000 words at a time? ;) I'm not absolutely pro or con any style, just whatever either a) makes it easier for me, or b) what we can all agree on! But I totally agree about consistency. SerialNumber54129 12:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think user:UndercoverClassicist gave a most succinct and helpful summary of how to turn the precepts of MOS:CAPS into practice, in a comment at another recent FAC: "... if the title stands in for someone's name (so "I met the Pope last Thursday" -> "I met Francis last Thursday"), it's capitalised, so most cases like "the Prime Minister did such-and-such" should be". Tim riley talk 07:53, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
Comment Support from Tim riley
[edit]This article is not yet of FA standard: there are too many things wrong with the prose. It would, in my view, have been helpful if the article had been taken to peer review before coming here.
- "he and Henry were both direct descendents of Edward III"–"descendants" (OED and Chambers recommended spelling).
- Absolutely.
- "York possessed two claims, through both the male and female lines"– but later we say "Unlike the Lancastrian claim, the Yorkist claim on the throne was based upon the female line of descent" – I can't make these two statements square with each other
- I've recast that whole paragraph, which hopefully clears things up but also simplifies the explanation?
- Much clearer now. Tim riley talk 14:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've recast that whole paragraph, which hopefully clears things up but also simplifies the explanation?
- "broke out into open battle, when a York had won a skirmish"– can one have "a York" tout court?
- Not that one would want to, certainly!
- "In the nine months since the Yorkists' exile, "the political situation in England had again been transformed" – needs an attribution inline.
- Check.
- "And coming there he walked straight on ..." –unclear why this big quote is given in modern English but the other one – "At which parlement the commones of the reame..." – is in medieval English.
- Fair point: it's literally the sources. One transliterated, the other... don't, I'm afraid. I could do it, but at some point, it stops being merely mechanical and starts being original work.
- Fair enough. Tim riley talk 14:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Fair point: it's literally the sources. One transliterated, the other... don't, I'm afraid. I could do it, but at some point, it stops being merely mechanical and starts being original work.
- "York's claim and right to the throne had long been recognised by the Royal council and in law, although it was theoretical until Edward of Westminster had also died childless." –I find this impenetrable. We need either a family tree or a clearer exposition of where the likes of Edward of Westminster fit in to the scheme of things.
- Family tree, check.
- Excellent! Tim riley talk 14:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Family tree, check.
- "the Nevilles knew of York's plan prior to his arrival" –"before"?
- Done.
- "Warwick's keenness to disassociate himself with York's plan" – "dissociate" and "from"?
- Yes. Odd one that dis/as/sociate, I probably use them synonymously.
- "the Lords requested that the royal justices examine the matter ...The lords next turned the matter over " – capital or lower case for Lords/lords?
- UC for House of, lc for people.
- "the king's god-given " – the OED prescribes a capital for "God-given".
- Done.
- "Having to achieve popular acclamation, York had to push his case on a strictly legal basis" – Is there a word, such as "failed", missing here?
- Quite an important word!
- "the prince of Wales own patrimony" – possessive apostrophe required
- Done.
- Caption: "Richard of York, a descendent of Edward III's" – spelling ;of "descendant" and do we need the apostrophe-ess?
- Check x2.
- "removal by forceable means"– "forcible" (OED and Chambers)
- done.
- "Having sworn to protect the king's life, York presumably expected the king to do likewise" – doesn't say what I think you mean: not that the king would swear to protect the king's own life, but that he would swear to protect York's.
- Changed to "expected the king to reciprocate".
- " Queen Margaret into York's implacable enemy ... became more implacable in their resistance to the Yorkist government" – two implacables in one paragraph? Perhaps "resolute" or some such the second time?
- Good choice.
- "it could also have driven Yorkist loyalists away" – either a different stop before "it" or a capital letter needed.
- Semi-c'd.
- "Margaret could not accept the disinheritance of her son and perhaps encouraged her and her supporters to see York's death as now the only chance of returning Edward" – seems to be a missing word such as "this" after the first "and". And is "could" rather than "would" the correct word?
- Both good.
- "stymied " – jarringly inappropriate word, suitable for 20th-century golf but not for medieval history
- Glad to say I've never set foot on a golf course in either century... except in anger perhaps. Changed to 'prevented', although it doesn't convey quite the sense of 'stalled in her tracks'...
- "thwarted" perhaps? Just a suggestion. Tim riley talk 14:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thwarted is just right.
- "thwarted" perhaps? Just a suggestion. Tim riley talk 14:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Glad to say I've never set foot on a golf course in either century... except in anger perhaps. Changed to 'prevented', although it doesn't convey quite the sense of 'stalled in her tracks'...
- "Henry's supporters who were behind this malcontent" – in modern English "malcontent" means a disgruntled person; the state of being discontented is "discontent".
- Thanks.
- "Rutland was probably probably knifed by Lord Clifford on Wakefield Bridge" – very probably.
- Check.
- "while Salisbury was captured and later executed at Pontefract Castle." – does "while" mean "simultaneously" or just "and"? Needs clarification.
- How bout "and Salisbury was captured after the battle, to be later executed"?
- Absolutely fine, though just "and" would be fine too, I think. Tim riley talk 14:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- How bout "and Salisbury was captured after the battle, to be later executed"?
- "Wakefield was a decisive blow for the Yorkists" – "for"? "to", surely? And as they eventually won, in what sense can it be called "decisive"?
- True, it wasn't. Rm 'decisive'. For the other, I went with 'a hard blow to the Yorkists...', but I'm not sure that sounds right either!
- If it were my prose, which of course it isn't, I'd say "a severe blow", but as always it's just a suggestion. Tim riley talk 14:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Severe, also good thanks.
- If it were my prose, which of course it isn't, I'd say "a severe blow", but as always it's just a suggestion. Tim riley talk 14:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- True, it wasn't. Rm 'decisive'. For the other, I went with 'a hard blow to the Yorkists...', but I'm not sure that sounds right either!
- "The Lancastrians' supposed breach of the Act of Accord, including York's death at Wakefield, and how made them responsible" – missing a word, by the look of it; perhaps "it" after "how".
- Indeed.
- "He was both inept as a ruler – presumably "he" is Henry, but this needs to be clear.
- Named Henry.
- "Refectory.[31]" – I cannot work out the point, if any, of this footnote.
- I admit, that was completely bizarre. going back to the source, I realise it was to clarify that the room they were in was their refectory!
That's all for now. Tim riley talk 10:14, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks Tim riley and SchroCat, I have spent much of the last decade carefully fashioning a circle of enemies, rather than friends.What happened here was that I forgot about the final—basic, if fundamental—stage of my approach: leave it overnight and do a final copyedit with fresh eyes. Sometimes, the last c/e might be light—typos, dup links, etc.—and sometimes heavy, such as moving stuff around and rewriting for clarity. This had a little of both. Still, Mutandis Mutatis is the cry around the hillside, and both your (much appreciated) comments above, often acting as a springboard to further development, have improved the article on how you would have found it had I not forgotten the final stage. What a palaver, though. Thanks again! SerialNumber54129 16:19, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hey! Order, order! I'm not an enemy and nor is our mutual friend Schrocat. We are on your side, but must do our duty as reviewers. Tim riley talk 14:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Tim riley: Thanks for your word suggestions, just the ticket. Re the above. Apologies: I don't see you as enemies at all, I was just putting myself down so as to save anyone else the trouble :) as you say, the duty of the reviewer is sacrosanct. Thanks for your help. SerialNumber54129 15:44, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Fine. I'll look in again for another read-through soon. Tim riley talk 17:25, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Tim riley: Thanks for your word suggestions, just the ticket. Re the above. Apologies: I don't see you as enemies at all, I was just putting myself down so as to save anyone else the trouble :) as you say, the duty of the reviewer is sacrosanct. Thanks for your help. SerialNumber54129 15:44, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hey! Order, order! I'm not an enemy and nor is our mutual friend Schrocat. We are on your side, but must do our duty as reviewers. Tim riley talk 14:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Second batch of comments from TR.
Coming on nicely. Nearly there, I think. A few odds and ends:
- Lead
- "They, in turn, were defeated three months later" – "They" presumably being the Lancastrians, but you could make that clear, I think.
- Done.
- Background
- "that it impacted national politics ... Less impactful nationally" – two impacts in close proximity: perhaps change one or the other?
- "began interfering in government business"?
- "By 1459 ... despite the king's efforts at reconciliation" – but earlier you tell us that the King had become mentally incapacitated, comatose and unable to recognise his companions. Had he recovered somewhat? If so is there a source for that?
- Right. Opened the 3rd para of the section explaining that the king recovered his health, and sacked York.
- York's claim to the throne
- "the fourth surviving son of Edward Gaunt's younger brother" – I wondered for a moment who Edward Gaunt was, but I think a comma will make your meaning clear.
- Good spot!
- "Warwick had met with York in Dublin" – I generally maintain that in BrE (unlike AmE) one meets with things – fate, success, trouble etc, but just meets people, but here I can see that the profusion of geographical labels might be a touch dizzying. I wonder if "Warwick and York had met while they were both in exile in Dublin" might be smoother, but I don't press the point.
- OK...thanks, firstly for a clear way of remembering that difference. The only thing here that makes me pause is that, while they were both in their exiles, they were exiled to different places—Warwick to Calais, York to Dublin. Thoughts?
- Good point (ahem!). Your original wording will suffice, but I wonder if it is necessary to mention the location at all? ""Warwick and York had met while they were in exile..."? I leave the ball in your court. Tim riley talk 17:09, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Negotiations and the act of Parliament
- "he bore the Langley arms ... he had never worn the Langley arms" – if he had never worn them in what sense did he bear them? Does this just mean he claimed entitlement to them?
- Butting in here - this looks to have been a typo, as Ross says it was the Clarence arms he never bore; I've gone and corrected it. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 21:10, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- That's dead right, and many thanks, PMC, for fielding that! Absolutely correct, of course. SerialNumber54129 15:07, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
That's my lot, I think. I'll look in again shortly. Tim riley talk 08:43, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks Tim; all of your suggestions adopted; just the matter of their exiles that's tripping me up a little. SerialNumber54129 15:07, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- With the recent improvements to the article it seems to me to meet all the FA criteria and I am happy to add my support. But peer review first next time, perhaps? (Speaking of which—hint). Tim riley talk 17:09, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments from PMC
[edit]Forthcoming within the week. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 02:34, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
Caveat - my comments are made with fairly minimal knowledge of the entire War of the Roses, so if I ask something particularly stupid, forgive me (but feel free to say so)
- Lead
- Why was the king absent?
- No idea; in Berkhampstead, IIRC, bt he'd only opened the blooming parliament three days earlier, and since it seemed a bit of extraneous detail, all mention of his or York's absence is now... absent.
- "The queen, Margaret of Anjou, refused to accept the disinheritance of her son, although her husband had publicly supported the act." I might swap the clauses here so we flow from king's support to queen's refusal to the next sentence's opener of "she was joined"
- Thanks, reads much better.
- I've never heard of Margaret before but I think I love her already.
- She was more King than her husband could ever hope to be!
- What was Henry doing while his wife was raising hell? Might be worth mentioning in the lead
- Well, he's still in London; he was still king, but York and the Nevilles were running the government. He was a catspaw.
- "was crowned King Edward IV" - when? Right then, or later?
- Dated.
- Background
- I recognize that the situation is complicated, but this article is ~3500 words and the background is ~1100. The section about York's claiming of the throne is another 500. That's just shy of half the article all together just to set the scene, before the Act even comes up. Is it possible to condense any of these details?
- Aaghh :) would it be OK, and the comradely act of a fellow editor, to throw SchroCat under the bus at this point ("Miss! It was his fault! He made me do it!")... I may have taken his suggestion of expanding the background too literally. I guess some words probably can be cut; can I take a deeper look into this point.
- We'll have to cut his catnip rations for sure. No worries though, I realize I'm kind of being a hypocrite here, complaining about the length and then asking for several clarifying points :P
- Aaghh :) would it be OK, and the comradely act of a fellow editor, to throw SchroCat under the bus at this point ("Miss! It was his fault! He made me do it!")... I may have taken his suggestion of expanding the background too literally. I guess some words probably can be cut; can I take a deeper look into this point.
- "heir to the throne until 1453" - what changed?
- Hh and the queen did their duty :)
- It is embarrassing to admit that "queen had a baby" genuinely didn't come to mind.
- Hh and the queen did their duty :)
- "the maintenance of God's Peace" is "God's Peace" a specific notion distinct from just "peace", or would "peace" suffice?
- Of course, absolutely.
- Henry was utterly incapacitated in 1453, but in 1455, he's able to raise a great council. When did he recover?
- I think my clarification to Tim above (his 2nd trance, 2nd point under 'Background') might cover this; he asked something similar. Can you see if it's satisfactory to you too?
- Looks good to me
- I think my clarification to Tim above (his 2nd trance, 2nd point under 'Background') might cover this; he asked something similar. Can you see if it's satisfactory to you too?
- "King Henry was captured by the Yorkists after the battle" later he's taken prisoner again. when did he get let go?
- Clarified that it was only for a couple of months.
- Both pairs of images are so tiny, I think you could safely make them bigger
- Done. Yes, much better.
- "Henry Bolingbroke" who
- Glossed him in that sentence.
- York claims the throne
- The lead mentions that the king is absent when York makes the claim, but the body doesn't establish this (was the king still a captive at this time?)
- see above, re. absenting.
- I can see it being removed in the lead, but in the body of the article, not addressing where the king was during this moment really begs the question of why he didn't object to someone else strolling up and calling dibs on his chair
- see above, re. absenting.
- This whole second paragraph is giving me just the worst secondhand embarrassment for York, it's like a Blackadder bit
- Totally. Thought of the theme song at the time! "His great grandfather was a king / if only for 30 seconds" :D
- "York appears to have had Henry removed from his lodgings" - was the king still a prisoner or how did he do this?
- Not really, they were the royal apartments, which York threw henry out of so he could live there. Nice attitude!
- Negotiations
- Double checked Ross and Ross says he never bore the Clarence arms, so I've corrected that
- Thanks again.
- "The resulting compromise was modelled on the 1420 Treaty of Troyes, which it mirrored;" "modelled on" feels redundant to "mirrored", I think we could pick just one
- "The resulting compromise mirrored the 1420..."
- "York's political opponents could now legally be classed as traitors" this is likely a question from ignorance, but how did the Act give him this power?
- Not at all. Clarified, hopefully, that it had always been treason to attack the heir to the throne, and now that was York, it applied to him.
- "The Act of Accord neither stopped the civil war..." - the second half of this sentence feels redundant to the first (mainly "nor resolved anything"). I see what you're doing, stylistically, but I don't see what it adds to the reader's understanding
- Duly cut.
- "If she had been looking" - this sentence feels a bit knotted up in itself
- Yes, verbose. Have tweaked.
- Aftermath
- Same question as in the lead - where is Henry while Margaret is raising hell?
- Still in London 'supporting' York's government...
- "Henry was accused of breaching the act long before that date" - in what way?
- point. Have clarified what Henry was now accused of in breach of the act (and, I imagine, his coronation oath).
Okay, that's what I've got on first read-through. Again, I apologize for any questions that arise out of ignorance of English history, although I hope an outsider's perspective is helpful in terms of spotting things that may feel obvious to a more knowledgeable person. No rush on responses, cheers! ♠PMC♠ (talk) 21:09, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Premeditated Chaos: That's a great review, really helpful. To be honest, an outsider's review can be the most useful because that's 99% of the readership, I guess. Also, you hit (annoyingly!) on broad themes along with prose. I think I've addressed your points—all improvements—except where I'm sharpening a penknife! Cheers! SerialNumber54129 15:07, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- The changes look good to me, there's just the background section and the question of the king's status during York's throne-touching incident that remains. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 21:21, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the few days' grace, Premeditated Chaos. I had another look and reduced the backgound section by 25%. I've also added a couple of sentences on what Henry was (not!!!) doing or thinking while this was going on. It's very vague, unfortunately. With no thought at all for the 21st-century historian, contempories didn't seem interested in what people weren't doing, only in what they were doing :) but this should help clarify things a bit. Thoughts? SerialNumber54129 13:06, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've had a quick re-read and I think all of my concerns have been addressed. The top half of the background I think is much better in terms of setting the stage for someone with minimal knowledge. Happy to support this one! (Unbelievably rude of people to not have been thinking of Wikipedia editors when they were writing stuff down in the 1400s, we should put in a complaint)
- By the by, unrelated to my support, I have another McQueen collection at FAC. I found your commentary on The Hunger very helpful; if you have the time and interest to have a look at this one, I'd be very grateful. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 19:30, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks very much for the review and support, PMC; I enjoy your McQueen articles and will be happy to look in! Cheers, SerialNumber54129 14:44, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the few days' grace, Premeditated Chaos. I had another look and reduced the backgound section by 25%. I've also added a couple of sentences on what Henry was (not!!!) doing or thinking while this was going on. It's very vague, unfortunately. With no thought at all for the 21st-century historian, contempories didn't seem interested in what people weren't doing, only in what they were doing :) but this should help clarify things a bit. Thoughts? SerialNumber54129 13:06, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- The changes look good to me, there's just the background section and the question of the king's status during York's throne-touching incident that remains. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 21:21, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
John
[edit]Lead
What does this sentence mean?
Following much discussion—in which the king's serjeants-at-law and justices claimed that under the act, Henry was to retain the crown for life, but York and his heirs were to succeed him.
Background
In Late Medieval England, strong kings were seen as essential to sound governance and the maintenance of God's Peace.[5] Likewise, weak government was perceived as encouraging the collapse of law and order, and contemporaries saw this as happening in the last years of Henry's reign.
"Likewise" isn't right here. I'd just make a longer sentence and use "and".
- Done.
York's claim to the throne
Warwick had met with York in Dublin while in their respective exiles.
Would "...while they were both in exile" be better?
- Done.
York claims the throne
"When York entered London, he had his sword, and the Arms of England, born aloft before him, rather than the traditional Mortimer quarterings, emblazoned on his trumpeters' banners, in the manner of a king." I'm lost by the end of that sentence. What does it mean?
- It was rather turgid! I've turned it into a couple of shorter sentences now?
Parliament
"Forty years later, the Act of Accord similarly decreed that Henry would retain the throne for his life, but that on his death, instead of descending to his son, Edward, Prince of Wales, it would do to York or York's heirs." "Do to" sounds awkward. I would reword this.
- Done.
Aftermath
"Elsewhere in the country, events necessitated urgent government intervention. In Scotland, James II had captured Roxburgh Castle and was poised to march on Berwick." Scotland and England are different countries and were all the more so in the 15th century.
- Blush!
"The Lancastrians' supposed breach of the Act of Accord, including York's death at Wakefield, and how it made them responsible for the civil war, became a mantra of Yorkist propaganda until the end of the dynasty in 1485." A mantra is something else. Would "theme" be a better word here?
- Absolutely.
John (talk) 10:17, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks very much for looking in, John, and for the suggestions. I've actioned them all—with a guilt trip for doing to Scotland in a couple of keystrokes what Edward I couldn't do in 30 years... SerialNumber54129 13:07, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- You're very welcome. Any objections if I just take a general hack at the prose? As others have pointed out, it isn't quite there yet. John (talk) 13:52, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- The encyclopedia anyone can hack at, John :) SerialNumber54129 15:44, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks. I think I'm owed that for spotting the England/Scotland thing. Still smarting from the Euros... John (talk) 16:00, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- The encyclopedia anyone can hack at, John :) SerialNumber54129 15:44, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- You're very welcome. Any objections if I just take a general hack at the prose? As others have pointed out, it isn't quite there yet. John (talk) 13:52, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks very much for looking in, John, and for the suggestions. I've actioned them all—with a guilt trip for doing to Scotland in a couple of keystrokes what Edward I couldn't do in 30 years... SerialNumber54129 13:07, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Done, and please carefully inspect my edits to ensure I have not inadvertently changed any meaning. There may be one or two other bits and pieces, but those were the issues that were jumping out at me. John (talk) 16:56, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- No John, that all looks good to me and reads nicely. Can't believe I never even mentioned the Wars of the Roses! The Homer Simpson of FAC, after all... SerialNumber54129 17:21, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Huh, not at all, it's an excellent and well-written article, it just needed a little polish. Still ok? John (talk) 19:40, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- thanks John, appreciated. SerialNumber54129 12:36, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hi John, I was wondering if you felt in a position to either support or oppose this nomination? Obviously, neither is obligatory. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:07, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Gog the Mild: you should not ask; it is an impossibility. John can neither support nor oppose and to ask is infamia. The important thing is, the article underwent solid improvements and, as a result, the project wins. Thanks to all who took part on this page. Cheers! SerialNumber54129 20:16, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- No John, that all looks good to me and reads nicely. Can't believe I never even mentioned the Wars of the Roses! The Homer Simpson of FAC, after all... SerialNumber54129 17:21, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
Source review
[edit]The page range of #21 seems pretty large. Is Boardman, A. and Boardman, A.W. the same author? Is there a logic behind some sources having an ISBN and others an OCLC? Regarding "The English Nobility in the Late Middle Ages: The Fourteenth-Century Political Community." there seems to be a 1987 and a 2002 edition, or is that just Google Scholar acting up? A similar question about "Historical Writing in England: c. 1307 to the Early Sixteenth Century". "Shadow King: The Life and Death of Henry VI" seems to be seldom cited in the wider world. Does "The House of Lords in the Middle Ages: A History of the English House of Lords to 1540" have a publisher? Seems like we are using major publishers, although I can't speak much about completeness or the authors. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:22, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, JJE, taking your queries in turn:
- Ha! Especially as the book is <200 pages long in total. A couple of other numbers fell in there; now corrected.
- Boardman: yes. I tend to go by what's on the actual book I'm using, so sometimes just Andrew, sometimes A. W. Consistency is good though, so changed to the latter.
- ISBNs: Well, since they've only been in common use since the late 70s, WorldCat ascribes an OCLC number to works predating this, a form of digital object identifier for books and journals I guess, available from Worldcat (I pass no comment on the fact that Worldcat is owned by, err, OCLC inc; no COI there, then, even though Wikipedia treats Worldcat as gospel!). In this case, you'll see that only the pre-70s books (Armstrong, Bellamy, Brie) use OCLCs, the rest are journals.I'm sure this is pretty much standard practice at FAC these days, isn't it, using OCLCs to predate ISBN? Apologies @FAC coordinators: if I've been doing it wrong all this time.
- Strictly speaking I'm answering from FA editing experience as opposed to FAC coord knowledge but I think in this case it amounts to the same thing. I’ve long employed OCLC for books that have no ISBN, and it's always met with everyone's approval. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 18:13, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- That's a good reason, but when I see inconsistencies, I generally query them unless the reason for the inconsistency is obvious. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:23, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Given-Wilson: Indeed, acc. Worldcat it's been reprinted several times, although not necessarily revised; I used the 1987 edition because it's the one that I bought when it came out, and I'm still lugging the tatty thing around since :)
- Gransden vol. II: Pretty much ditto; although, per WorldCat again, there have been several printings between 1982 and the present day. I use the 1996 printing of vol. II.
- Sacked Johnson; not sure what I was thinking of. There's a Winter King] by the highly reputable RS Thomas Penn, on Henry VII; could've been that. Anyway, I replaced it and tweaked the language accordingly.
- Enoch: yes, both publisher and location now filled. It's odd that the script didn't highlight it for me, though.
- Thanks for looking it over, Jo-Jo Eumerus. Hopefully, all your points are clarified/addressed. Cheers, SerialNumber54129 17:52, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:33, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
This article is about a hymn, or four hymns? I have a long history with it, DYK in 2011, GA in 2017 and a peer review in 2019. Today I was invited to the 15 years society and feel like celebrating, with this hymn which - in Luther's version - has been part of family functions. I made the article my story today, and that 2011 DYK explains two hymns (... that the first stanza of the hymn "Nun bitten wir den Heiligen Geist", asking the Holy Spirit for the right faith most of all, is documented in German in the 13th century, and the later three relate to faith, love and hope?), while there are two others in Catholic tradition. Please explore. Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:33, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
Media review
[edit]- File:Nun_bitten_wir_den_Heiligen_Geist_(GL).mid: what's the copyright status of the arrangement?
- File:Berthold_von_Regensburg.jpg needs a US tag. Ditto File:Nun_bitten_wir_den_Heiligen_Geist_(WA).jpg, File:Nun_bitten_wir_den_Heiligen_Geist_(1653).jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:09, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for looking! I dropped the midi files as of no good quality. Dan, can you perhaps help with the licenses for File:Berthold von Regensburg.jpg, File:Nun bitten wir den Heiligen Geist (WA).jpg and File:Nun bitten wir den Heiligen Geist (1653).jpg? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:27, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've added US tags for those three files. DanCherek (talk) 01:45, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, Dan! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:38, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've added US tags for those three files. DanCherek (talk) 01:45, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for looking! I dropped the midi files as of no good quality. Dan, can you perhaps help with the licenses for File:Berthold von Regensburg.jpg, File:Nun bitten wir den Heiligen Geist (WA).jpg and File:Nun bitten wir den Heiligen Geist (1653).jpg? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:27, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
Ceoil
[edit]Reading through; very interesting and aligning to the type of early modern music I prefer. Placeholder. Ceoil (talk) 20:04, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for your interest, and for copy-editing! I am not yet convinced of some changes in the lead, admitting that change is needed, just how?
- The first stanza came from a leise: no, not really. There was a leise, and it became the first stanza of all three later versions, - how can we say that better?
- I am reluctant to call a 1524 work "modern", even if it was 300 years more "modern" than the leise.
- There are three versions in today's hymnals, two from the 16th century (Luther, Vehe) and one from the 20th (Thurmair). Perhaps we need to find a way to say that at the very beginning? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:49, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- Fine, but the fact that I was confused as to actual meaning indicates issues. As the text only has 1200 odd words, it should be easily resolved. I'll do buttleted demands from here. best, Ceoil (talk) 06:57, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
- I now tried to write a new first paragraph to outline the relation of the three versions. Please check, but perhaps first read the body to know what the lead should summarize. History: when I began the article, I only thought of Luther's hymn. I remember how surprised I was to learn that singing in German had this long a tradition, - somehow I had thought it was all in Latin until Luther came along ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:44, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
- but perhaps first read the body ' agh, you've lost me now. Ceoil (talk) 19:30, 4 August 2024 (UTC)Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:50, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry, I was busy, yesterday RL, today Jürgen Ahrend. Did I say something wrong? - When I review, I look at the lead last, that's about all I wanted to say. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:50, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Grand, will resume over weekend....Ceoil (talk) 22:48, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry, I was busy, yesterday RL, today Jürgen Ahrend. Did I say something wrong? - When I review, I look at the lead last, that's about all I wanted to say. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:50, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Fine, but the fact that I was confused as to actual meaning indicates issues. As the text only has 1200 odd words, it should be easily resolved. I'll do buttleted demands from here. best, Ceoil (talk) 06:57, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
Airship: prose
[edit]- Lead is rather repetitive:
- " in German, which all share the first stanza, a 13th-century leise" // "The first stanza in all versions is a leise in German from the 13th century."
- "wrote three additional stanzas in 1524" // "In 1524, possibly for Pentecost, he wrote three additional stanzas."
- " Maria Luise Thurmair wrote a continuation based on this in 1972" // "Maria Luise Thurmair; her version was published in 1972"
- It also needs copyediting for prose—I have corrected a couple of minor errors, but sentences like "They also have in common that they use its medieval melody." and "The request to the Holy Spirit for the right faith especially ("um den rechten Glauben allermeist") suited Luther's theology." are stilted and/or confusing. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:00, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
- AirshipJungleman29, thank you for reviewing! Please see above: Ceoil pointed out that the lead lacked an overview of the versions, which was added late, and made some things repetitive. Should the first (new) paragraph be more condensed to avoid that, for example saying only that there were also Catholic expansions, or rather some details cut in what follows?
- Thank you for the corrections. I'd appreciate help with phrasing. Trying something for the melody, please check. I will have to think about the theology. I think that it's rather commonly known that Luther promoted a theology of sola fide, faith alone, - do you think it should be expanded? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:04, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- A suggestion (I may have misinterpreted some content, so don't feel like this is a demand): ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 23:06, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
concise lead
|
---|
"Nun bitten wir den Heiligen Geist" (We now implore the Holy Ghost) is the title of several hymns in German which share the first stanza, a 13th-century leise, and its medieval melody. This stanza alludes to the Latin sequence for Pentecost, Veni Sancte Spiritus (Come, Holy Spirit). Widely known, it was used as a procession song and in sacred plays. In his 1523 liturgy, the Protestant reformer Martin Luther recommended using the leise regularly in church services; it contained an appeal for the right faith which especially suited Luther's theology. In 1524, possibly for Pentecost, he wrote three additional stanzas, first published in Wittenberg in the same year as part of the Eyn geystlich Gesangk Buchleyn. His version's themes of faith, love and hope are appropriate for general occasions and funerals. not only Pentecost. Luther's chorale is sung by several Christian denominations in different languages, having received various English translations. It inspired vocal and organ music from the Renaissance to contemporary by composers such as Johann Crüger, Johann Sebastian Bach, Hugo Distler and Ernst Pepping. Alternative continuations of the hymn have appeared in Catholic hymnals. Luther's contemporary Michael Vehe, a Dominican friar and theologian, published his version, also with three added stanzas, in 1537. His hymn was revised and expanded by Maria Luise Thurmair in 1972. Both Luther's and Thurmair's hymns have remained in use into the 21st century. |
- Thank you for thinking about it. I woke up thinking that it would be better to present a very short overview. I did that and then took some of your good ideas on board, please check. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:10, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Better, but the repetition between the first and last paragraph needs to be taken into account.
- I understand (generally in FAs) the first para as a summary of a summary. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:24, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- See MOS:OPEN. The first paragraph should define the subject and clearly convey its significance. The rest of the lead summarizes the most important points of the article. A professional lead (FA criterion 1a) does this without duplication or repetition. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 00:51, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- (I am far from claiming professionalism.) I trimmed the lead to no repetition (but see the danger of sandwiching text when too short). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:19, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- See MOS:OPEN. The first paragraph should define the subject and clearly convey its significance. The rest of the lead summarizes the most important points of the article. A professional lead (FA criterion 1a) does this without duplication or repetition. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 00:51, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- I understand (generally in FAs) the first para as a summary of a summary. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:24, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Better, but the repetition between the first and last paragraph needs to be taken into account.
- Thank you for thinking about it. I woke up thinking that it would be better to present a very short overview. I did that and then took some of your good ideas on board, please check. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:10, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- General comments
- I have added four {{cn}} tags to uncited material. You should look to combine short paragraphs per WP:PARAGRAPH.
- It would be useful for all readers if a translation of the verses into English were provided. The {{Verse translation}} template may be helpful. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:41, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you! I'll look into the first point later. Translations: sadly, I didn't see a free translation. Bach Cantatas Website (external link) comes with a good one, but from 2015. The various hymnary pages don't offer text, possibly for the same reason. But I now found this and will use it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:22, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- I fixed one of the required citations. Looking for something online for Vehe's version in the Limburg hymnal (which I own), I found nothing for that fact, so may add a book ref. I found, however, interesting other sources leading to some rewrite, patience please. The short explanation of what the Vehe hymn says: call it OR, - it's my rendering in English of what it says in German, instead of a translation of that version which - I'm afraid - we will not find. I'll move the publications in other languages to translations, and add more publications of the Luther version. Before all that, there's garden work and dealing with the article of a cellist who died - my plan for today. I can ping you when I'll get to it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:05, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- (The cellist is on the Main page. Today's topic was a conductor, still far from how the article should be.) I added a ref for the 1975 Gotteslob, and modified to Vehe being the editor of the hymnal, not necessarily the author. As for what that version means in English: would it help if I'd write individual phrases in German with their translation, as for Thurmair's? For hers that seemed necessary because the English is under copyright (but can be seen in the "Fischer F" ref). - Too tired to search for more publications and translations. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:19, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Airship, by now I managed to use Fischer (encyclopedia of hymns) more. I also think I found a better way of referring to it, listing its subpages as pages instead of new references. It led to more versions, and a complete rearrangement of the article structure: trying to avoid level-four headers, I dropped the distinction of Text and Music and then subdivided, changing to one of Leise - Protestant - Catholic, putting all music and translations under Protestant, because I noticed those only for the Luther version. I hope to expand the translation corner which is still short. I found a general ref for many appearances in songbooks and hymnals and wonder if I should mention some of those. What do you think. Do you know the verse template enough to find a way to avoid the excessive white space that comes with it - the more stanzas the more it seems? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:46, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
MyCat
[edit]I'll gladly review; however, know that my liturgical knowledge is very limited, so much of my review will just be about the prose rather than comprehensiveness. I'll review once Airship's comments are resolved, so I don't say anything they already said. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 13:40, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments from TechnoSquirrel69
[edit]Saving a spot for later; I'm working on a source review. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 01:16, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the source eview. I havae a busy weekend with company and concert, so just brief replies at the moment, and no major changes to the references right now. When I wrote the article, I had access to the volume of Liederkunde written by Hahn, similar to this one but can't find it any more. Help welcome. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:39, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
Source review
[edit]Citation numbers from this revision.
- In the interest of consistency, convert the references styled liked citation 34 to full citations in the reference list with short footnotes pointing at them.
- I would recommend adding archive links to all web sources.
- Adding translated titles using the
|trans-title=
parameter would be preferable, but all non-English citations must use the|language=
parameter. - There needs to be consistency for where the page numbers are located. Some sources confusingly have pages in both the short footnotes and the full citations. Recommend moving them all to the footnotes.
- The books should all have publication locations or none of them, for consistency.
- Citation 25 needs a page number or section title provided using the
|loc=
parameter. - What makes Fischer 2007 a high-quality reliable source? (I was unable to track down the author due to their extremely common name, unfortunately!)
- It's a research project of the University of Freiburg, Fischer is one of the co-editors. --GA
- In Becker 2022: Switch to {{cite journal}}. Oldenburg University → University of Oldenburg Press. I'm not a fan of the PDF download URL, I would recommend removing. Add
|doi=10.25619/BmE_H20224
in any case. - Recommend removing the URL from Hahn 2000 as Google Books does not actually provide access to that source.
- Kluge 1975 needs a bunch of formatting improvements but, more importantly, it appears to be a dictionary and not a secondary source. Does it actually verify anything in that sentence other than the meanings of the words? Does the inclusion of that information constitute due weight?
- I'm rather confused by Korth 2004, which has the same ISBN and URL as Hahn 2000 but seems to be a different publication?
- In Randel 1996: link Harvard University Press.
I appreciate your patience with my review, Gerda! Still going through at the moment and might be back with a few more comments later. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 15:42, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments from The ed17
[edit]Hello Gerda, and I apologize for the number of the below comments seeing as you invited me to comment. I've gotten through the first part of the article, and unfortunately I found it quite difficult to parse and understand. Some time could be spent simplifying the information we're telling readers, as well as reducing the number of translated words to make is less complicated to read.
- First of all (allermeist) thank you for copy-editing. As said, this is an "old" article, deals with historic events, in two languages different from English, - great to have feedback from a native speaker! Thank you also for the time to go into details. I reverted two things (of the many) and hope the edit summaries were clear. --GA
- Overall question: Why is {{langr}} used so often? The typical {{lang}} sets off translated text in italics so it's easier for a reader to parse.
- I recently was introduced to it, and found it a blessing to use instead of saying "italic=no" each time. I was trained that things separated by quotation marks and coming with the lang template don't need italics also. Incipits of hymn, common Latin phrases that became part of English, - such things. --GA
- Frankly, I don't think I read a single Latin phrase in the upper part of the article that I'd consider "common". :-p I'd recommend using italics to ease a reader's understanding for anything except when it's something like a song title, which then get those quotation marks. Ed [talk] [OMT] 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I recently was introduced to it, and found it a blessing to use instead of saying "italic=no" each time. I was trained that things separated by quotation marks and coming with the lang template don't need italics also. Incipits of hymn, common Latin phrases that became part of English, - such things. --GA
- "retaining its text as a first stanza": do you mean "retained the first stanza"?
- No. There was no first stanza, there was the leise. He used its text completely, making it the first of four stanzas. How would you word it? --GA
- Got it. I tried making an edit to make that clear. Ed [talk] [OMT] 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- No. There was no first stanza, there was the leise. He used its text completely, making it the first of four stanzas. How would you word it? --GA
- "using melodies derived from its medieval tune": what medieval tune? That isn't previously mentioned.
- We are still in the lead, and to devote a sentence to the tune seems to be undue weight. I was encouraged to trim the lead (further up). --GA
- I get the desire to keep the lead short, but it also needs to be understandable, and I don't understand what "medieval tune" we're referring to. Ed [talk] [OMT] 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- We are still in the lead, and to devote a sentence to the tune seems to be undue weight. I was encouraged to trim the lead (further up). --GA
- Additional context around the Protestant/Catholic split may be needed. Otherwise, a reader will not understand the importance of Martin Luther's using it.
- I am not sure, for the same reason - keep it concise. We have a good article about the Reformation, and what of it should be summarised, and how? Would you think of a background section?
- This could be as short as "when Protestants split from Catholicism" or similar! Ed [talk] [OMT] 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I am not sure, for the same reason - keep it concise. We have a good article about the Reformation, and what of it should be summarised, and how? Would you think of a background section?
- What is a "a song for the dying"? Was it used in funerals?
- The German term is "Sterbelied" which implies that it is sung with someone dying. The term appears almost 70 times in the German Wikipedia but has no article. It's also used for poems written by a poet who was approaching death (Hildebrand's Sterbelied), an example for a Sterbelied is "O Welt, ich muss dich lassen". I never heard of a similar thing in English. Help? --GA
- Got it. I added a suggested rewording to the article. Ed [talk] [OMT] 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- The German term is "Sterbelied" which implies that it is sung with someone dying. The term appears almost 70 times in the German Wikipedia but has no article. It's also used for poems written by a poet who was approaching death (Hildebrand's Sterbelied), an example for a Sterbelied is "O Welt, ich muss dich lassen". I never heard of a similar thing in English. Help? --GA
- What's a procession song?
- a song sung during a procession --GA
- "The leise contained an appeal for the right faith which especially suited Luther's theology ...": what's the "right faith"?
- depends for whom as the different versions show ;) --GA
- I'm afraid I still don't get it. Was the 'right faith' Protestantism"? A certain form of that? A generic call to follow the 'right faith' that Luther could then define for his listeners? :-) Ed [talk] [OMT] 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- depends for whom as the different versions show ;) --GA
- The lead may benefit from a straight divide between Protestant and Catholic usage. Weaving the two together makes for a somewhat whiplash-y experience.
- sorry, that word is new to me ;) - When I wrote the article - see infobox - I wanted to write about Luther's song, in an attempt to have articles about his hymns (in 2017 I believe, when 500 years of Reformation were remembered). Only later did I realise that the other versions should perhaps also be mentioned. --GA
- Sorry! I just mean that it goes back and forth, while instead you could mention the Christian schism and then individually go through its usage in each sect after that. Ed [talk] [OMT] 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- sorry, that word is new to me ;) - When I wrote the article - see infobox - I wanted to write about Luther's song, in an attempt to have articles about his hymns (in 2017 I believe, when 500 years of Reformation were remembered). Only later did I realise that the other versions should perhaps also be mentioned. --GA
- "Catholic use was discontinued after the Baroque period, but the hymn reappeared in a modified version in Heinrich Bone's Cantate! hymnal in 1647. It became used more after the 1938 collection Kirchenlied ...": several points here.
- Most people, including me, do not know offhand when the Baroque period started and began. Can we use a year or even a rough decade instead?
- I see from our article that the Baroque period ended in 1750, but despite being discontinued by then it appeared in a hymnal in 1647? That's confusing.
- I apologize for a severe typo in that number which I corrected to 1847 as the body has. - When the Baroque period ended depends on who looks at what, so I'd try to avoid one year. Yes in music it's probably with Bach's death in 1750. --GA
- Could we put a rough decade on it? E.g. "... discontinued after the Baroque period (roughly the 1750s) ..." ? And I think you may have forgotten to fix the 1647 year in the lead. :-) Ed [talk] [OMT] 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I apologize for a severe typo in that number which I corrected to 1847 as the body has. - When the Baroque period ended depends on who looks at what, so I'd try to avoid one year. Yes in music it's probably with Bach's death in 1750. --GA
- If it was discontinued, it wasn't later "used more" -- it was "used again".
- Sorry that I didn't find a way to say what I wanted. It appeared in 1847, but it wasn't used much (if at all, we don't know). It appeared in 1938, and was used - how much we still don't know. It was used more later, and from personal experience I'd say: still not much. People love and sing "Der Geist des Herrn erfüllt das All" by the same Ms. Thurmair, even Protestants. That has become e song suitable for ecumenical service. Where I live we have had one every year on Pentecost Monday for the decades I live there, and we had Luther's version only once (and people not knowing it complained about its "old" language, and Thurmair's version also only once, and I achieved that the last (counter-reformation) stanza wasn't sung ;)
I need a break, RL, more later today. --GA- Not a major point, so we can drop this. Ed [talk] [OMT] 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry that I didn't find a way to say what I wanted. It appeared in 1847, but it wasn't used much (if at all, we don't know). It appeared in 1938, and was used - how much we still don't know. It was used more later, and from personal experience I'd say: still not much. People love and sing "Der Geist des Herrn erfüllt das All" by the same Ms. Thurmair, even Protestants. That has become e song suitable for ecumenical service. Where I live we have had one every year on Pentecost Monday for the decades I live there, and we had Luther's version only once (and people not knowing it complained about its "old" language, and Thurmair's version also only once, and I achieved that the last (counter-reformation) stanza wasn't sung ;)
- "Luther's chorale is sung by several Christian denominations in different languages ...": should this sentence begin with something like "In the modern day, ..." ?
- Doesn't the present tense imply that? (I was trained to avoid "currently", "today", "modern times" ... --GA
- True, that's MOS:CURRENTLY. Maybe "As of the 2020s"? The present tense does imply the shift to today, but I'm afraid it's too subtle for many to pick up on. Ed [talk] [OMT] 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Doesn't the present tense imply that? (I was trained to avoid "currently", "today", "modern times" ... --GA
- "It has inspired vocal and organ music from the Renaissance to contemporary by composers such as Johann Crüger, Johann Sebastian Bach, Hugo Distler and Ernst Pepping.": We can simplify this sentence by saying "from the 14th century into the present day", and removing the unnecessary bluelinks to our general articles on Renaissance music and Contemporary classical music that don't immediately benefit readers.
- We could but specific names give more an idea of what kind of composers would use it, without long explanation. --GA
- I think general readers won't know who those composers are, and this is the lead, so I'd recommend shortening. In the end, it's your call. Ed [talk] [OMT] 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- We could but specific names give more an idea of what kind of composers would use it, without long explanation. --GA
- "It was first a Sterbelied, a song for someone dying.": The translation could be removed to make reading this simpler.
- You think readers would remember? --GA
- I think readers don't need to know the translation. :-) Ed [talk] [OMT] 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- You think readers would remember? --GA
- "As in the conclusion of Veni Sancte Spiritus ("da salutis exitum") ...: The translation could be removed to make reading this simpler.
- "The concern is "most of all" (allermeist) the "right faith" (rechten glouben) ...: Like the lead, what does the "right faith" mean?
- replied there --GA
- "The person praying is aware that human life is transient and believes that the true home is Heaven ...": What does "true home" mean in this context?
- The German word that I tried to translate is "Heimat" which doesn't have an exact translation. What would you suggest. "heimfahrn aus diesem Elende" means "return home from this exile", not easier by modern-day Elend meaning misery. Help welcome - this is talking theology, so difficult. --GA
- And I'm not particularly familiar with theology, so I'm struggling too. How about "... human life is transient and believes that they will find eternal life in Heaven, ..." Ed [talk] [OMT] 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- The German word that I tried to translate is "Heimat" which doesn't have an exact translation. What would you suggest. "heimfahrn aus diesem Elende" means "return home from this exile", not easier by modern-day Elend meaning misery. Help welcome - this is talking theology, so difficult. --GA
- "Protestant Reformers tried to continue medieval tradition": Does this refer to medieval Catholic traditions or something else?
- This was added late for the context that Luther, like other reformers, had no intention to throw traditions over board, almost the opposite. I simply took it from a source. The word "Catholic" had a different meaning after the Reformation resulted in different denominations. --GA
- Gotcha. How about a couple sentences like this, assuming it's covered by the source: "Although Protestants were seeking significant liturgical changes within the Catholic Church, they did not seek to overturn most religious traditions. For example, when Martin Luther issued a 1523 liturgy for services, he recommended including three traditional German hymns: "Gott sei gelobet und gebenedeiet" ... etc. etc. " Ed [talk] [OMT] 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- This was added late for the context that Luther, like other reformers, had no intention to throw traditions over board, almost the opposite. I simply took it from a source. The word "Catholic" had a different meaning after the Reformation resulted in different denominations. --GA
- "Nun bitten wir den Heiligen Geist" and "Christ ist erstanden" (Christ is risen) are the only medieval songs still in use.": in use by who?
- sung in "modern day" services, - or what would you think "use" means? Again, I took that from a source. --GA
- Sorry for the ambiguity. I mean by which religion, and if possible by what kinds of congregations (w.g. traditional ones?) in what geographical areas. Ed [talk] [OMT] 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- sung in "modern day" services, - or what would you think "use" means? Again, I took that from a source. --GA
- "The leise had a long tradition.": I suspect this should say "Nun bitten wir den Heiligen Geist" vs. "the leise" to specify we're talking about a specific leise, and not them generally.
- We would still have to add "the leise" to not be ambiguous, and teach me English: could "the song had a long tradition" mean "songs" in general? --GA
- I re-read this and think I missed why this actually sounded off to me. I'd still use the full name, but because it wouldn distinguish which one you're talking about from the three things you listed in the previous sentence. Ed [talk] [OMT] 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- We would still have to add "the leise" to not be ambiguous, and teach me English: could "the song had a long tradition" mean "songs" in general? --GA
- "Its topics of the right faith (rechter Glaube, veram fide) and the thought of the time of death must have appealed to Luther. He had mentioned veram fide in an early sermon about the leise (1509 or 1510), and promoted salvation by faith alone (sola fide)":
- There's no need to translate "right faith" again, and "veram fide" should just be "right faith".
- "veram fide" would literally mean "true faith".
- We can remove "sola fide" and just link "faith alone".
- We can, but would loose a short illustration of how much Luther relied on medieval Latin tradition. --GA
- It's your call in the end, although I'd argue that it's far too subtle to convey the point you're trying to make. I certainly missed it. Ed [talk] [OMT] 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- We can, but would loose a short illustration of how much Luther relied on medieval Latin tradition. --GA
- There's no need to translate "right faith" again, and "veram fide" should just be "right faith".
- "... as "Du wertes Licht" (You esteemed light), "Du süße Lieb" (You sweet love) and "Du höchster Tröster" (You highest comforter).: these translations don't line up with the translations given in the full translation above it.
- No, and if they did, they didn't have to be there. The translation given next to the poem is a singable English version, which means that aspects of rhyme and number of syllables have prominence over literal meaning. --GA
- As always, it's your call whether to act on these comments. But as a general reader coming in with no background on this material, I was expecting the translations to line up and was confused when they didn't. E.g. "Thou precious Light" does not sound like the same thing as "You esteemed light" :-) Ed [talk] [OMT] 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- If you are going to shorten the name of the leise to "Nun bitten wir", I would prefer that you start doing that in the lead to prepare readers
- I guess I'd then rather have the full name consistently. --GA
- "... which mention its manifold gifts ...": what are manifold gifts? I suspect this sentence clause could be dropped without impact on readers.
- I gave it a link to Seven gifts of the Holy Spirit. --GA
- "His three stanzas can be seen as related to "Glaube, Liebe, Hoffnung", the theological virtues of faith, love and hope, which Paul the Apostle expressed in his letter, 1 Corinthians 13:13.": We can simplify this sentence, and "can be seen" needs in-text attribution. E.g. "Historian Michael Fischer has said that his three stanzas relate to the theological virtues of faith, love and hope."
- I suspect this is not one historian's view ;) - I see the same, and would you not? (It was even the DYK fact, DYK? ... which was years before I even looked at the Fischer source.) I can check if others see the same, but not today. --GA
- Ideally then, we'd add citations to those additional similar views. The passive voice the sentence currently uses implies that there is more than one. :-) Ed [talk] [OMT] 03:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I suspect this is not one historian's view ;) - I see the same, and would you not? (It was even the DYK fact, DYK? ... which was years before I even looked at the Fischer source.) I can check if others see the same, but not today. --GA
- That makes it to the beginning of the "Publication" section. I'll try to return and look through the rest of the article, but for the moment I hope this gives you some ideas on how to improve the article. Ed [talk] [OMT] 04:58, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, and I like the discussion, - thank you for taking the time. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:00, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for replies, read and mostly understood, but I have some things on my mind with more urgency (translate an article of a person who died, do a peer review as promised last week ...). I'll reply when I get some time of rest. It may be archived by then, but will help the article in the long run, transforming it from simply about one song to something like the development of congregational singing in different denominations over centuries ;) - I fixed that year, sorry to have overlooked it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:06, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
Coordinator comment
[edit]This has been open for three weeks and we currently don't have a single support for promotion. Unless this changes within the next few days, I'm afraid this is at the risk of archival. I recommend that you ping the above two users who expressed an interest in reviewing this later. 11:04, 23 August 2024 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by FrB.TG (talk • contribs)
- Don't be afraid, just archive. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:35, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:43, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
Ever wonder why Greek and Sanskrit cognates involving gutturals don't always match up like you expect and usually before an /r/ sound? Yeah, me either. But in 1881, a German linguist commented on this oddity and proposed a sound law to explain it. "Largely forgotten by the scholarly world", the law developed newfound interest when Dutch linguist Alwin Kloekhorst gave the law a full defense in 2011, giving Dr. Weise a high honor: naming it after him. As of now, there are no Proto-Indo-European FAs and only one other GA, which is something I'm hoping to fix. This article may be of interest to you if you speak a language affected by the law, including a Balto-Slavic language, Albanian, Armenian, or any of the Indo-Iranian languages, such as Farsi or Hindi. I would like to extend my thanks, first and foremost, to UndercoverClassicist who beat this article into shape during its GA nomination, swung by to help out during PR, and overall just gave great feedback. Also thanks to RoySmith and Matarisvan, both of whom gave me great feedback at PR as well. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:43, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Good to see this here -- will pop in at some point. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:11, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Count me in for a review! Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 10:19, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Generalissima: Courtesy ping. Just wanted to see if you were still interested in reviewing this since it's been a few weeks. ThaesOfereode (talk) 18:30, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Support from Gog the Mild
[edit]Recusing to review.
- "Presented at a conference in 2008". Who or what was presented?
- Rephrased.
- "several different sources on the topic, both referencing Weise and not". This would work better as 'several different sources on the topic, some referencing Weise and some not' or similar.
- Done.
More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:58, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, Gog! Looking forward to your comments. ThaesOfereode (talk) 16:10, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- "while the palatovelar stops generally were made into alveolar sibilants in most cases". You don't need to say both "generally" and "in most cases".
- Good catch. Fixed.
- "Sanskrit words contain many potential violations of the rule occurring". I am not sure this is grammatical. Try deleting "occurring".
- Fixed.
- "However, these are often the result of later sound changes particular to a language or language family such as in Sanskrit"> I am a little confused; "such as in Sanskrit", as opposed to what?
- In short, there appear to be violations of the law which are explainable by sound changes that took place after the law. In Sanskrit, as an example, /l/ becomes /r/ in many circumstances. Because of this, śr clusters appear to be violations of the law – since ś is largely, if not only, derived from PIE *ḱ – because *ḱ cannot precede *r according to the law. But because these words may be the result of a PIE *ḱl cluster, there is no violation. The examples serve to demonstrate such cases.
- In which case I suggest that a bit much is being asked of this sentence. Perhaps something like 'However, these are often the result of later sound changes particular to a language or language family. Examples can be found in Sanskrit, where ...'
- Fixed.
- In which case I suggest that a bit much is being asked of this sentence. Perhaps something like 'However, these are often the result of later sound changes particular to a language or language family. Examples can be found in Sanskrit, where ...'
- Non-actionable comment: I like your two uses of "In other words". Is this deliberate minor humour?
- I'd love to say yes, but this is the template phrase of someone used to reading and writing technical jargon trying to make it more accessible. In other words, sadly no. :-)
- "The law must have occurred by". I know what you mean, but I am unsure that it works as prose. Perhaps unpack "The law" to say just what it was that "must have occurred by"? Similarly with references to "the law" in the last sentence of the paragraph.
- I've changed a few of these up; I think I'm understanding you right. If not, could you offer a suggestion?
- Yep, that's fixed it.
- And in "there is positive evidence that the law never occurred in Armenian" and similar uses. I am not sure that "the law occurred" etc communicates well to a reader.
- Ibid. above
- Likewise.
- "linguists suggest that this sound change occurred before the centum–satem split." All linguists, most, or some?
- Now that I'm looking at it again, I think it's really just Kloekhorst saying that. I've changed it to reflect that.
- "Although, because the results of Weise's law seem more extensive outside the Indo-Iranian languages, Kloekhorst notes that it is likely that a secondary wave of depalatalization law took place at a later date in each of those language families." ' Kloekhorst notes that it is likely that a secondary wave of depalatalization law took place at a later date in each of those language families, because the results of Weise's law seem more extensive outside the Indo-Iranian languages' seems easier to parse.
- Done.
- "See Centum and satem languages § Satem languages for more." Maybe '... for further information' [or 'detail', or discussion']?
- I like "further discussion". Fixed.
- "Larry Trask also categorizes both". Categorizes both as what?
- Clarified.
Gog the Mild (talk) 20:00, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Hi Gog. Thanks for your feedback. I've responded accordingly. Let me know what you think. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:18, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Just one come back of note above. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:06, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Everything should be addressed now. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:01, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Just one come back of note above. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:06, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- I am leaning support, but as it is early days for a technical topic I am going to hold off formalising this until I see what other reviewers think. In particular their view of WP:TECHNICAL "Wikipedia articles should be written for the widest possible general audience." I think that it passes this, but only just, and would like to see others' opinions. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:18, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Rereading, the article seems more accessible than I left it - thank you UndercoverClassicist and the nominator. And UC has explicitly approved of the level at which it is pitched. Who am I to disagree. Supporting. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:39, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Excellent. Thank you for the comments and support. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:28, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Rereading, the article seems more accessible than I left it - thank you UndercoverClassicist and the nominator. And UC has explicitly approved of the level at which it is pitched. Who am I to disagree. Supporting. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:39, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
Borsoka
[edit]Before starting a detailed review, I think the article needs some expansion:
the main text could explain that the sound change is assumed to have occurred in Proto-Indoeuropean;
- If I'm reading you correctly, discussion on this is found in the "Relative chronology" section, where I've written about the two competing views: Kortlandt (Proto-Indo-Iranian only) and Kloekhorst (late Proto-Indo-European, excluding the Anatolian languages).
Proto-Indoeuropean could very shortly be introduced;
- Done.
I assume that the three sounds mentioned in the article are not attested, but assumed - this should be clarified.Borsoka (talk) 03:51, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think this has been fixed with what I wrote for the above suggestion, since I talk about how PIE is hypothetical and no record of it exists. I go over that in the representational conventions in "Terminology", so I think all the bases are covered.
- I have responded accordingly. Please let me know if I misunderstood anything or need to do anything else. ThaesOfereode (talk) 13:18, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Borsoka: Gentle nudge to see if you're still planning on reviewing/giving support. ThaesOfereode (talk) 15:42, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
UC
[edit]I am struggling to find too much to say, though I know I have already stuck my oar in a great deal on this article. I hope the below is useful nonetheless. UndercoverClassicist T·C 19:14, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks a ton for your help on this article. I've fixed most of what you've pointed out and responded to the rest accordingly. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:14, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support -- I think I'm probably at the end of my expertise here, but I think we're in a much better place -- balancing technical detail and comprehensibility in an article like this is extremely tricky, and as far as I can see it's about as good as it can be. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:13, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- No doubt. Thank you for your tireless effort making this article more accessible and better quality. ThaesOfereode (talk) 13:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support -- I think I'm probably at the end of my expertise here, but I think we're in a much better place -- balancing technical detail and comprehensibility in an article like this is extremely tricky, and as far as I can see it's about as good as it can be. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:13, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- The biggest point throughout -- I still think we could do more to help non-linguists understand what is going on here, particularly in the lead. I admit that I was never particularly good at philology in undergrad, but I've got pretty good training in it and find causes the depalatalization of the palatovelar consonants *ḱ *ǵ *ǵʰ in certain contexts. In short, when *ḱ *ǵ *ǵʰ are followed by *r, they depalatalize and thereby merge with the plain velars *k *g *gʰ, respectively, unless the *r is followed by *i or the palatalized form is restored by analogy pretty tough to parse. I also found the penultimate paragraph of the "Overview" section a little tricky.
- I've been thinking about how to de-technicalize the lede for some time now. I think I've figured it out, but let me know if I'm still off the mark. As for the penultimate paragraph in "Overview", I've also rewritten part of that. Same goes.
- I wonder whether "merge with" is likely to be confusing for most readers -- I'm not sure many non-linguists will parse it as "become [indistinguishable from]". A bit later, with One such example of this is Sanskrit अज्र ájra 'field, plain', which is derived from h₂éǵ-ro- 'field, pasturage'; in this example, the reflex of the palatalized consonant has been restored: can we say what it would be if Weise's law were followed, or what's "wrong" with ájra under it? UndercoverClassicist T·C 14:22, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Had to do a little source-digging and ended up clearing up a few things I thought could be further de-technicalized, but I added the expected reflex for ájra. As for the "merge with" issue, I asked a non-linguist whether that term was clear and they confirmed your concerns, so some thoughts: With respect to changing it to "become indistinguishable from" as an alternative, I'm concerned this may lead to the belief that they are still somehow distinct in some meaningful way; linguists do distinguish surface representation from deep structure. In other words, something may not be distinguishable in discourse, but may still be distinguishable in some other way. What I've done instead – since I cannot think of an sufficiently broad term that is correct in the linguistic sense – is link Phonological change#Merger. I think this will adequately address my technical concern about accurate terminology and the general concern about accessibility to non-linguists. Let me know what you think. ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:59, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Would there be anything wrong with saying that one sound merging into another is, for all intents and purposes, that sound simply becoming the other one? I think the link helps, but as the tooltip doesn't give a definition (as it's linking to a section), it's not a perfect solution. Some sort of gloss on merge to explain that it includes taking on the same sound (even if it doesn't strictly mean that) might be possible? UndercoverClassicist T·C 14:35, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- The reason I am a bit wary of "become" in this context is that it doesn't convey that the plain velars were already in the language; I think it sounds like they became novel sounds in the language. Could I steal the terminology from Phonological change#Merger and say that the distinction between the palatovelars and the plain velars was lost? ThaesOfereode (talk) 16:17, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think that would probably work? UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:34, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, I think this has been adequately addressed now. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:20, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think that would probably work? UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:34, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- The reason I am a bit wary of "become" in this context is that it doesn't convey that the plain velars were already in the language; I think it sounds like they became novel sounds in the language. Could I steal the terminology from Phonological change#Merger and say that the distinction between the palatovelars and the plain velars was lost? ThaesOfereode (talk) 16:17, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Would there be anything wrong with saying that one sound merging into another is, for all intents and purposes, that sound simply becoming the other one? I think the link helps, but as the tooltip doesn't give a definition (as it's linking to a section), it's not a perfect solution. Some sort of gloss on merge to explain that it includes taking on the same sound (even if it doesn't strictly mean that) might be possible? UndercoverClassicist T·C 14:35, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- One thing that I think would help with this is a demonstration -- could we perhaps do a table with three columns -- PIE, [example centum language -- Latin?] and [example satem language -- Sanskrit?], with a few words that show the distinction written out in easily-parsed transcription?
- I'm not opposed to that, but I'm not sure what should be demonstrated with a table. There is a table on the Centum and satem languages page, which demonstrates the difference, which I suppose I could add with real examples (instead of just descriptions) to show the difference between the two fairly generally. The problem is, in the cases in which Weise's law applies, the difference between centum and satem languages can't be differentiated as a result of that depalatalization; Weise's law basically causes the "pseudo-centumization" of certain palatal sounds. I'm also concerned that using attested languages like Latin and Sanskrit may be unhelpful to the layperson because they will invariably show forms that are the result of later sound changes and may further confuse someone unfamiliar with historical linguistics.
- Similarly, some of the (entirely correct) technical notation could be written in plain language without sacrificing much: instead of (e.g., Sanskrit: श्रवस् śravas 'fame' < *ḱleu-es-; ह्राद् hrād 'to resound, to make a noise' < *ǵʰleh₃d-), try for example, the Sanskrit word for 'fame', śravas, derives from the Proto-Indo-European *ḱleu-es.
- Fair enough. Fixed.
- The law is named after German linguist Oskar Weise: a false title: this and similar are better as "the German linguist..."
- Done.
- According to Alwin Kloekhorst, Weise's original article has "been largely forgotten by the scholarly world",: is the tense quite right here, given that Kloekhorst was trying to bring it back to scholarly attention? Might be more accurate to do was largely forgotten as a paraphrase. I think we do need to put a date on K's work here.
- I'm not gonna push back too hard here, but I'd say it's still kind of forgotten. I think Kloekhorst did a good job reminding others that the law existed and sort of established the boundaries better than Weise did, but sound laws like Grimm's, Szemerényi's, and Verner's are commonly mentioned in the field's literature, whereas even narrow etymologies of Sanskrit don't mention it at all. Still, I'm willing to stand down on this if you think Kloekhorst successfully brought it back to scholarly attention, but I'm skeptical. That all said, I've dated the quote as requested.
- Note how the tongue's point of contact or constriction moves increasingly forward, from the palate to just behind the teeth. the MoS discourages editorial asides like "note how...", and takes the position that everything we write is notable. Better simply to start the sentence at The tongue's...
- Fixed.
- Another tough bit: since the metathesis of late Proto-Indo-European *u and *r occurs after both the divergence of Anatolian (e.g., Hittite: 𒍝𒈠𒀭𒆳 zama(n)kur 'beard' < *smóḱ-ur) and any depalatalization under Weise's law.
- Good call. I revamped this paragraph entirely.
- there is positive evidence that this kind of depalatalization never occurred in Armenian (սրունք srunkʿ 'leg' < *ḱrūs-ni-; մերձ merj 'near, close to' < *méǵʰsri).: as above, I think it might help to write out the bit in brackets in layman's terms.
- Yep. Done.
- Albanian and Armenian have a controversial placement in centum–satem taxonomy. See Centum and satem languages § Satem languages for further discussion: this currently seems a bit disjointed, since we then talk about this in the last paragraph of the article.
- Yeah, I originally put this in here to get in front of any head-scratching coming from someone with linguistics knowledge, especially since I originally wrote an extremely technical article (i.e., one in which a reader would only have gotten that far with some background in PIE linguistics). I think the discussion on the page is better (and better sourced), so would it be better to just {{slink}} the "Relative chronology" section of this article instead? Or should I just remove it outright?
- I think it mostly works: While the law does not affect most of the generally accepted centum languages, Kloekhorst considers Albanian and Armenian to be satem languages: is it worth sticking in the middle "it does affect Albanian and Armenian; most scholars categorise these as centum languages, but Kloekhorst..."? UndercoverClassicist T·C 14:22, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- My take on the scholarship is that "Albanian and Armenian are satem languages" comprises a plurality – but not a majority – of opinions on the topic. I'd say "Albanian and Armenian exist outside the dichotomy/exist on a spectrum within the dichotomy" is a close second (usually in "inoffensive" contexts, such as intros to the field and papers in which Albanian and Armenian do not constitute a significant portion of the data). And I found this to remain the case as I developed the article, though scholarship is changing somewhat on what exactly the dichotomy is as a whole. That's why I simply put "have a controversial placement" rather than implying any sort of majority opinion because I don't think any polls or reviews of the literature would support an outright majority. And if they did, it might be outside the scope of this article; Weise's law affects these two languages, so for the purposes of most of scholarship on the law, they are categorized as such and that's really all the reader needs to know. ThaesOfereode (talk) 16:40, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- In which case, we need to think about the phrasing of While the law does not affect most of the generally accepted centum languages..., since this implies that Albanian and Armenian are generally-accepted centum languages. I'm not sure you need to come down hard either way, but we should avoid giving the reader the wrong impression. UndercoverClassicist T·C 14:37, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Makes sense. It's fixed, but let me know if the verbiage is still off. ThaesOfereode (talk) 16:10, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- In which case, we need to think about the phrasing of While the law does not affect most of the generally accepted centum languages..., since this implies that Albanian and Armenian are generally-accepted centum languages. I'm not sure you need to come down hard either way, but we should avoid giving the reader the wrong impression. UndercoverClassicist T·C 14:37, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Make sure that footnotes always end in a full stop (the citation template adds one automatically, as does sfn; harvnb doesn't) -- see note 3 for instance.
- Good catch. I think I got all of them now.
SnowFire
[edit]Nice work.
I know that having some commentary or suggestions is common to sort of "prove" that the reviewer actually read the article, but I'm a little gunshy of making such on a highly technical topic, and when UC above has already massaged the prose pretty well. I did read Kloekhorst's paper for comparison and it seems summarized and fairly represented, but usual disclaimer goes that I'm not a linguist here, and some of the summations probably require someone who really knows the field for a 100% confidence review.
The main concern is the one that both Gog & UC alluded to above: that this topic is going to be a rough read for "casual" readers who aren't familiar with linguistics and the details of PIE theories. I agree with UC that some sort of table of sample words would be a nice-to-have as something, anything that casual readers can glom onto - even if what it's demonstrating is actually a similarity rather than a difference. But I read the examples in Kloekhorst's paper, which are all hypothetical old words and about as clear as mud, so... respect that this is hard to do, since modern languages have concealed the difference leaving us with Old Avestan and reconstructed PIE. Basically, some sort of "here's a reconstructed word with *ḱ, here's a word that should have a *ḱ but really has a *k because it's followed by *r, here's a word that has a *ḱ and is followed by *r*i" might be nice. While I think this would be helpful, it's not enough to block promotion - just something to strongly think about if there's a good example in the sources. (And if there are good examples in modern languages, that'd be even better.)
A cautious support - this is one of those topics I suspect isn't very main page friendly (only hardcore linguists stumble on this article by accident), but there's absolutely a place for that in FAs. SnowFire (talk) 20:48, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- First, thank you for your kind words and support. I was concerned this page would languish in FAC limbo with only two supports, so thank you for voicing your support here as well.
- With respect to the table, I took both yours and UC's table hopes to heart and I genuinely cannot think of a way to adequately tablify the concept without it descending into extreme theoretical historical linguistics. In effect, what Kloekhorst is arguing is that at an earlier date, the palatalized consonants may have been more widespread, but PIE is reconstructed through the comparative method and every daughter language appears to have depalatalized either all palatals (centum languages), all palatals before resonants (satem languages, except Indo-Iranian), or all palatals before *r alone (Indo-Iranian). This is why Kloekhorst doesn't give examples, only possible counterexamples. I gave the Avestan example from de Vaan as a helpful explanation, but both Kroonen (p. 244) and Matasović (p. 224) reconstruct the root as *krep- and I don't see any real reason to reconstruct the palatovelar except perhaps to posit a relationship with another root. All this to say, I made a table after UC's comments, but found myself realizing why Kloekhorst wrote the paper the way he did.
- Again, thank you for supporting the article for FA. If you have any suggestions later or think of some way to further de-technicalize the article, feel free to let me know. ThaesOfereode (talk) 01:06, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
Source review
[edit]File:Eisenberg Wohnhaus Oskar Weise Tafel.jpg needs a licence for the plate. I wonder if the information in the files of the "overview" section can be sourced. File:Centum Satem 2000BC.png is even tagged for such and should probably say where the underlying map comes from.
Is there a logic between the use of quotes in the references? Also, many inconsistent IDs in the sources section. "Kleiner, Kurt (19 February 2024). "New Linguistics Technique Could Reveal Who Spoke the First Indo-European Languages". Scientific American. Retrieved 1 August 2024." is a somewhat so-so source IMO.
- 5 Can I have a copy of this page?
- 6 The first part is supported. Can I have copies of the other pages?
- 8 OK
- 9 Can I have a copy of this page?
- 10 Can I have a copy of this page?
- 12 Can I have a copy of this page?
- 14 Is this supported by the other source?
- Yes, per Beekes: "Assibilation, the development of a palatal or palatalized consonant into a °sibilant or (a cluster or) an °affricate with a s-sound as a second element; e.g. PIE *ḱmtom > Skt. śatám, Av. satəm; Latin centum > Ital. cento [č-]." (p. 302, where "°" signifies "defined elsewhere")
- 16 OK (I can read German and checked the translation)
- 19 I think this source might actually benefit from a quotation.
- 21 OK
- 23 OK
- 25 Can I have a copy of this page?
- 26 Can I have a copy of this page?
- 27 Can I have a copy of this page?
- 29 Needs a page number.
- Already paginated: 266.
- 32 Can I have a copy of this page?
- 33 Needs a page number.
- Already paginated with quote: 268.
- 36 Is there a transcript of the pertinent part of the video?
- Not that I'm aware of, but I'll see if I can't whittle down the ~10 min time frame/quote the appropriate parts of it.
- 37 I am not sure that this actually says that Indo-Iranian languages had secondary depalatization.
- It doesn't. First usage is to discuss later depalatalizations in Albanian and Balto-Slavic only and the last usage explicitly carves out the Indo-Iranian languages from the statement.
- 41 OK
Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 06:05, 28 August 2024 (UTC) @Jo-Jo Eumerus: Thanks for the source/image review. I'm planning to fix these sometime in the next 24 hours or so, barring any unforeseen circumstances. I've responded to a few things above. As for getting copies of the pages, how should I go about doing that, given that the source is copyrighted? I've never done this through Wikipedia before. Re: quoting strategy, there isn't one. Mostly, if I thought the context were relevant or the quote particularly useful, I added it. I tended to exclude quotes that were particularly technical. Re: inconsistent IDs, I'm not sure what you mean. Could you give an example? Re: the plate, should any additional licensing be necessary, given that Germany has freedom of panorama? Thanks again for the review. ThaesOfereode (talk) 12:22, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:20, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Edith Roosevelt was a lifelong companion to President Theodore Roosevelt, from childhood until Theodore's death. Shying from the spotlight as her husband became increasingly famous, she found herself thrown into the role of first lady over a matter of days when Theodore unexpectedly became president of the United States. As first lady, she ruled Washington's social life with an iron fist, holding meetings with the wives of Theodore's cabinetmembers to determine when and how they were to hold events—and who they weren't allowed to invite. Edith took charge of the White House's first major renovation, and she was the first of the first ladies to hire her own employee.
This is the fourth article of my U.S. first ladies project that I'm submitting as a featured article candidate. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:20, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Image review
[edit]- Suggest adding alt text
- File:Edith_Kermit_Carow_Roosevelt_by_Frances_Benjamin_Johnston.jpg: when and where was this first published? Ditto File:Edith_Roosevelt.jpg, File:Theodore_Roosevelt_and_family,_1903.jpg, File:Edith_and_Ethel_Roosevelt_cph.3b42358.jpg
- File:Theodore_Roosevelt_and_family._"From_a_father_of_five_to_a_father_of_five"_-_Gilbert_Studios._LCCN2015650317.jpg: when and where was this first published and what is the author's date of death? Ditto File:Mrs._Theodore_Roosevelt_LCCN2009631530_(cropped).jpg, File:Mrs._Theodore_Roosevelt_LCCN2009631491_(cropped).jpg
- File:Mrs._Roosevelt,_Quentin.jpg: where is that licensing coming from? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:43, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- File:Edith_Kermit_Carow_Roosevelt_by_Frances_Benjamin_Johnston.jpg, File:Edith_Roosevelt.jpg, File:Mrs. Theodore Roosevelt LCCN2009631491 (cropped).jpg – These are all from the same source, which doesn't provide that info, and a Google search for each image didn't turn anything up.
- File:Theodore_Roosevelt_and_family._"From_a_father_of_five_to_a_father_of_five"_-_Gilbert_Studios._LCCN2015650317.jpg – Same as the others, but it's from Gilbert Studios, which was apparently owned by commons:Category:C. M. Gilbert. I don't know whether that's enough to call him the author though.
- File:Mrs._Theodore_Roosevelt_LCCN2009631530_(cropped).jpg – Figured out the author and added to the Commons page
- File:Mrs._Roosevelt,_Quentin.jpg – Yeah, that wasn't ideal. I switched the description to the standard format used by the other images, and I swapped the CC tag with a standard PD tag. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:03, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- So for all the images with tagging indicating a publication date prior to 1929, is it actually possible to demonstrate that? Or should the tagging be changed? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:26, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, they're all from Library of Congress which doesn't provide the publication info, and I haven't been able to verify them separately. Is there an alternative tag to use in this case, or should I just remove the tags (and would the images need to be removed from the article in that case)? Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:21, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- So for all the images with tagging indicating a publication date prior to 1929, is it actually possible to demonstrate that? Or should the tagging be changed? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:26, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- What's the earliest publication date that can be confirmed? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:46, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- TBUA, just a reminder that Nikkimaria's outstanding comments need addressing. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:42, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- As I said previously, I am unable to verify publication. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:58, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
Drive-by from Kavyansh
- link White House in the lead
- "came to be her most enduring legacies." — I feel we are stating a widespread scholarly opinion as a fact. I would have written it as "are considered by scholars/historians/authors<whatever deeps appropriate> to be her most enduring legacies."
- "Managing the family became a large responsibility, as she also considered her husband to be one of the children for his involvement in the children's trouble-making," — Interesting! But do we need this in an encyclopaedic article?
I might add a few more comments, but I won't be supporting or opposing the nomination, primarily because these are just drive-by comments. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 15:55, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the feedback, always appreciated! I've made the first two changes. For my part, I've always liked having a few more personal details to give a better picture of the subject's family life and personal thoughts, but I have no objection to changing how it's presented or just removing it if others agree that it doesn't work as it currently stands. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:15, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
MSinccc
[edit]- Placeholder for the time being. Regards MSincccc (talk) 13:55, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- She then became second lady of the United States when Theodore was elected Vice President, and she became first lady when the assassination of President William McKinley propelled Theodore to the presidency later that year. The specific year or month-year might be mentioned as it has not been done previously in the paragraph.
- Edith resented the press, so she used her influence to control its coverage of the family and had photographs taken of the Roosevelts so she could provide them to the press at her discretion. Can this sentence be reconstructed to make its meaning clearer?
- This sentence gave me a lot of grief when I was writing the lead. I've given it another try and split it into two sentences. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 17:33, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nothing more for the lead. I will return with further suggestions later. MSincccc (talk) 14:01, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thebiguglyalien More comments below. Looking forward to hearing your response.
- Legacy
- Historians have little information about Edith's own state of mind while studying her life,...
- The historian Stacy A. Cordery said that the White House renovations organized by Edith were one of her "most important legacies",... Grammatically correct, now.
- Edith has been ranked:... Can this sentence be rephrased into one sentence?
- MSincccc (talk) 07:23, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thebiguglyalien Further travel and political involvement
- Over 300 letters celebrating Franklin's nomination arrived as Sagamore Hill. The last phrase "...arrived as Sagamore Hill" is vague. Could you please explain it to me? The rest of the section is fine.
- Typo. Should have been "at Sagamore Hill". Thebiguglyalien (talk) 17:33, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- MSincccc (talk) 02:54, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Return to Sagamore Hill
- She temporarily lost her taste and permanently lost her smell from the accident.
- Rephrased sentence. MSincccc (talk) 03:02, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- To me this makes it sound like she enjoyed kitsch art and her body odor was cured. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 17:33, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Return to Sagamore Hill
- Thebiguglyalien Further travel and political involvement
MSincccc, I've replied to everything to this point. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 17:33, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- First lady of the United States
- Rather than hiring a housekeeper, she took personal responsibility for the care of the mansion. I suppose it should be "hiring" instead of "hire".
- Each Tuesday, Edith organized a meeting with wives of all the cabinet members to run concurrently with cabinet meetings.
- For two months beginning in April 1903, Theodore ventured off on a trip to the west, and Edith cared for the children on her own, first on a cruise aboard the USS Mayflower and then in the White House. What do you mean by the "White House" here? Was it a vehicle for him to travel to the West?
- Besides her own children, Edith also ensured to dedicate time to her stepdaughter Alice, who felt neglected by Theodore.
- @Thebiguglyalien Till here for now. I will return with further suggestions later. Regards. MSincccc (talk) 03:42, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- "ensured to dedicate time" doesn't sound right to me, but I've made the other changes. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:51, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Thebiguglyalien Fine. I do not have any major suggestions for improvement at the time being. Keeping that in mind, I will not hold back my opinion for this article's FAC. Support. MSincccc (talk) 10:38, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- "ensured to dedicate time" doesn't sound right to me, but I've made the other changes. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:51, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments from Mike Christie
[edit]Outstanding work as usual; as usual, this is nothing but a list of minor nitpicks and I expect to support once these are dealt with or argued away.
"until after Theodore was engaged to Alice Hathaway Lee": suggest making this "until after Theodore was engaged to his first wife, Alice Hathaway Lee". I suspect I know more about Teddy than most Americans (I live near Sagamore Hill and have visited it several times) but I still had to click through to remind myself that he did marry Alice."and got elected governor of New York": suggest "and was elected" as a little more formal in tone."She then became second lady of the United States when Theodore was elected Vice President, and she became first lady when the assassination of President William McKinley propelled Theodore to the presidency later that year." A bit repetitive in structure, and I'm not keen on the "then". I also think it would help to have one or two dates in this paragraph. How about inverting the first half: "When Theodore was elected Vice President in March 1901 she became second lady of the United States for six months, and then became first lady when the assassination of President William McKinley propelled Theodore to the presidency in September of that year"? Mentioning a year once or twice earlier in that paragraph wouldn't hurt either."she featured various musical artists at the White House": perhaps "invited to" rather than "featured"?"held a mutual animosity toward his wife Helen Herron Taft": I don't think there's a good verb that you can use in the form "she Xed animosity towards". If you want to keep "animosity", I would suggest "and there was mutual animosity between Edith and Taft's wife, Helen Herron Taft". If you'd rather avoid the passive, maybe "and she and his wife, Helen Herron Taft, strongly disliked each other"."She remained politically active, supporting Warren G. Harding in 1920 and Herbert Hoover in 1932—the latter being an effort to distance herself from Hoover's opponent ...": this doesn't work syntactically -- "the latter" refers to Hoover himself, not her support for him. Maybe "She remained politically active, supporting Warren G. Harding in 1920 and Herbert Hoover in 1932. Her support for the latter was an effort to distance herself from Hoover's opponent ..."."Edith's early schooling took place at the Roosevelt home": can we give the location?- It says in the previous paragraph that they were in Norwich, Connecticut. I don't want to be redundant, and this is how the source handles it.
"Managing the family became a large responsibility, as she also considered her husband to be one of the children for his involvement in the children's trouble-making". I don't think "as" works unless the source is clear that it would not have been a large responsibility without Theodore's attitude, which seems unlikely given the number of children and the expectation of the day that mothers were responsible for day-to-day parenting. Suggest "Managing the family became an increasing responsibility, and she counted her husband as one of the children because of his involvement in the children's trouble-making".- I went with "in part because", does that work?
"cared for their family friend Cecil Spring Rice during his visits": this makes it sound as if he was an invalid?"Fischer's antique shop": this is mentioned as if it's well-known. Is it a candidate for a redlink?- The source makes it seem this way, but I also can't find any sources with a surface level search.
"Attending several receptions in 1890, Edith was received at the White House with her husband, now as a guest rather than a tourist": suggest "She attended several receptions in 1890, and was received at the White House with her husband, now as a guest rather than a tourist". I assume some of these receptions were not at the White House? If they all were at the White House then that could be made definite with "She attended several receptions at the White House in 1890 with her husband, and was now received as a guest rather than a tourist"."on February 1, 1894, by President Grover Cleveland, where Edith was sat directly next to the president": suggest "on February 1, 1894; Edith was seated directly next to the president, Grover Cleveland". I don't think we need to say Cleveland personally issued the invitation (and he probably didn't, anyway).- Is "sat" formal AmEng usage? In BrEng it would have to be "seated"; "sat" sounds very odd to me. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:57, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
"The promise proved to be short-lived." This doesn't sound right to me; promises don't last -- they are kept for a long time or a short time. Perhaps "The promise was not kept for long"?Is the link for Friday Morning Club correct? That article is about a building in Los Angeles."Edith was uncomfortable with the proposition of Theodore running for Vice President of the United States": I think it would be better to start with the vice presidential opportunity as context rather than assume the reader knows what's coming -- e.g. "In 1900 Theodore was urged by Henry Cabot Lodge and others to accept the vice-presidential role on the Republican national ticket" (stealing from our article on Theodore). Then we can say Edith was uncomfortable with the idea.Our article on Theodore says he actually did issue a public statement that he would not accept the nomination, but here you say he only drafted one -- is one of the articles wrong?- Schneider & Schneider (2010) and Morris (1980) both say they drafted it together and then skip straight to him accepting the nomination. Gould (2013) says "Yet, Theodore never went the final step of saying he would decline the vice presidency if it were offered to him."
I don't doubt your adherence to the sources, but Cleveland's reassurance to Edith seems odd as it doesn't seem to address any of the concerns listed -- it's as if Cleveland was reassuring her that Theodore could cope.- It's possible that I didn't convey it very well, but it tracks in my mind. She was worried for his safety and about how much he was doing, and Cleveland assured her that he could handle all of it.
- But the list of her concerns doesn't include "how much he was doing", which is what Cleveland's reassurance seems to be mostly aimed at. Can we add that to her list of concerns? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:57, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- It's possible that I didn't convey it very well, but it tracks in my mind. She was worried for his safety and about how much he was doing, and Cleveland assured her that he could handle all of it.
"For her sitting room, Edith used an oval library adjacent to the president's office". Was this the Yellow Oval Room?- It's possible, but I don't want to assume, especially since the White House has been redone a few times.
"Edith seemed to regret how her role as first lady": suggest "that" rather than "how"."with new obligations that brought her displeasure: suggest simplifying, e.g. "that she disliked"."commenting on how it ruined the grass": suggest "saying that it". I think "how" in these constructions is more useful when the intended meaning is "the manner in which" rather than just "that"."Because of a lack of historical records": does this really add anything?I don't understand the account of her interactions with Frances Metcalfe Wolcott. If the Wolcotts were divorced and stayed so, in what way did she "help ... fix her marriage"?"the handkerchiefs were scrutinized and criticized": I don't know that more details are worth including, but I am curious as to what the criticisms were -- poor fashion choices?- The source doesn't give much. It quotes one person as saying they were "tacky" and mentions one women's group in Texas that liked Varina Davis's handkerchief better.
"Edith featured the famous German composer Engelbert Humperdinck when he visited the United States": what does "featured" mean here?"She exerted her influence over journalists, such as occasions when she wore the same dress multiple times but convinced the reporters to describe it differently": suggest "She exerted her influence over journalists: for example, when she wore the same dress on multiple occasions, she convinced the reporters to describe it differently each time.""Edith and Helen had developed a rivalry over the years, both distrusting each other and the other's husband. This rivalry contributed to a rivalry between Theodore and William in the following years." Repetition of "rivalry"; can we eliminate at least one?Suggest linking Richard Derby Jr to Ethel Roosevelt Derby#Marriage and family, to satisfy the curiosity of readers who wonder via which child Richard was a grandchild."Then in 1927, Edith ferried across the Paraná River in Argentina until she reached the Iguazu Falls in Brazil". I don't think "then" is necessary; and this phrasing makes it sound as if she piloted the ferry. Could we say "took a ferry" or even just "crossed"? I had to look at the linked article on the falls to understand why the sentence is constructed this way -- is the intended meaning something like "she took a ferry across the Paraná River in order to reach the Iguazu Falls"? If so I would suggest that phrasing, with "on the border between Argentina and Brazil" at the end to simplify the first half of the sentence."By this time, Edith began having": either "had begun to have" or "was beginning to have", or cut "By this time"."Knowing that her health would not let her travel as frequently": suggest "Knowing that her health would no longer let her travel frequently"."as it had been thoroughly furnished": surely "refurnished"?"and her allowance of racist songs to be performed at the White House to suggest strong anti-black views": suggest "and the fact that she allowed racist songs to be performed".Steinmetz is in the list of references but does not appear to have been used.Not a FAC requirement but you might add "|ref=none" to the further reading citation templates to avoid harv errors for those who have them enabled.
-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:45, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Mike Christie I've made changes for each point except for the ones I've replied to above. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:50, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Most points struck; a couple of minor queries above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:57, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- Mike Christie, agree that "seated" makes more sense. And I went back to the source and looked to see what concern it raised immediately before Cleveland's comment, so that should be fixed. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 04:35, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Most points struck; a couple of minor queries above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:57, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- Mike Christie I've made changes for each point except for the ones I've replied to above. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:50, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Support. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 08:25, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments Edwininlondon
[edit]A nice piece of work. Reads well and looks very comprehensive. I tried my best to nitpick and managed a few. Please ignore as you wish, especially since I am not a native speaker.
- Edith Carow began a romance with Theodore Roosevelt --> the body text is more neutral about who took the initiative
- I don't read this as her taking initiative, just that he was the person she was with when it happened.
- she participated in New York social life --> just wondering if a 's would be better
- but she preserved only one of these letters --> the but makes it sound there is an intriguing story here
- I'm not sure what you mean.
- Sorry for not being clear. Let me try again: Why is the word "but" here? This to me hints at something of a controversy among historians whether they were or were not in contact. If there is some kind of controversy, this should be explained. If none such is the case, I wonder what the value of adding "but she preserved only one of these letters" is.
- I'm not sure what you mean.
- because they could not count on a mayor's salary --> sorry I don't understand count: could it be that NYC's finances were shaky or something?
- in Albany --> link?
- incredibly thin --> not sure I would use incredibly, I think "very thin" sounds more like WP's tone
- subsequently had lunch with the McKinleys --> I had to look up who had won the 1900 election. Would be nice to tell the reader at some stage, so that this lunch is understood to be with the top cheeses
- he would experience as presidency --> president?
- former president Cleveland --> we have a P in President McKinley, which is definitely good, but is it former president Cleveland or former President. I'm not sure, I suspect you are.
- In this case I'm not sure if "former president" is a common noun descriptor and "Cleveland" is the object, or if "former" is a modifier and "President Cleveland" is the object. MOS:JOBTITLE has never been intuitive to me.
- MOS:JOBTITLE does not seem to help. If I had to guess, I'd go for former president Cleveland
- In this case I'm not sure if "former president" is a common noun descriptor and "Cleveland" is the object, or if "former" is a modifier and "President Cleveland" is the object. MOS:JOBTITLE has never been intuitive to me.
- Edith was confident in Theodore's chances for his reelection --> when was this?
- moved back in to --> moved back into
- by Caroline Harrison --> by former first lady Caroline Harrison
- Done, but the JOBTITLE issue might also be relevant here.
- Republican Party --> link?
- been granted the right to vote --> link perhaps to Women's suffrage in the United States
- Franklin D. Roosevelt --> should be linked. I realise this may generate a sea of blue, so perhaps a little rejigging of words is possible?
- "Everything she did was for the happiness of others". --> "Everything she did was for the happiness of others."
- nineteenth century --> earlier we have 19th
That looks to be it. Edwininlondon (talk) 15:37, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- Edwininlondon I've replied to a few above, and I made the suggested changes for all of the others. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 04:29, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): Dudley Miles (talk) 19:59, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Brochfael was king of Gwent in south-east Wales in the late ninth and early tenth centuries. He is chiefly known for having been one of the Welsh kings who submitted to the lordship of Alfred the Great in order to get protection from the oppression of Æthelred, Lord of the Mercians. Brochfael was involved in a number of disputes with Bishop Cyfeilliog, who is an FAC below, and was once threatened with excommunication for insulting the bishop. Dudley Miles (talk) 19:59, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Image review
- Is there no image of the subject that could be included?
- I cannot find one. Dudley Miles (talk) 06:52, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Suggest expanding the alt text
- I have previously made alt text a short summary and this has always passed FAC, but recently an editor has been deleting alt texts in my FACs on the ground that it duplicates the label, and another editor commented that the alt text should be a place marker as it only prevents readers from seeing the file name instead of the label. I see from Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Alternative text for images that this is incorrect, so I have gone back to make alt text a short summary. OK now? Dudley Miles (talk) 06:52, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- File:Medieval_south-east_Wales_map_Lloyd.jpg is tagged as life+100, but gives an author date of death less than 100 years ago. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:37, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Changed to PD-old-70-1923. OK? Dudley Miles (talk) 06:52, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
-
- Thanks Nikkimaria. Replies above. Dudley Miles (talk) 06:52, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
source review from sawyer777
[edit]yay, a medieval Wales FAC!! one of my favorite topics. i'll get to this in the next few days. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 08:12, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks Sawyer777. There is another one below at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Cyfeilliog/archive1! Dudley Miles (talk) 08:26, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- aye, i'll give it a review if i've got the time and/or it stalls out & needs more feedback. :) ... sawyer * he/they * talk 08:28, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
alright, let's get to it.
- in the publishing location, the cities don't need ", UK" (or NY, for Ithaca) after them - there's no ambiguity about which London or Cardiff is being referred to. also, for Oxford University Press, having the location is a bit redundant as it's right in the name. not really a big deal though. overall, citation formatting & consistency is great.
- no concerns about reliability; Iolo is nowhere to be found, and all of the sources are from solid academic publishers and authors. i see only three old sources, Haddan & Stubbs 1869, Evans & Rhys 1893, and Lloyd 1911, which are used perfectly reasonably.
small spot-check (ref numbers as of this revision):
- ref 8 (a & b): good
- ref 10: good
- ref 15: good
- ref 18: checked Charles-Edwards and Davies, both check out
- ref 25: good
no significant issues i could find. support on sourcing. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 10:11, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
Support from Gog the Mild
[edit]Recusing to review.
- Could "charter" be linked?
- Linked to charter. The article on Anglo-Saxon charters is much morre informative, but the title would confuse people. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:17, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- "in order to get protection". 'in order to gain protection' sounds a little more encyclopediac to my ear.
- "Brochfael's acceded to the throne" ?
- Fixed. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:17, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- "and submitted to the West Saxon king." And who might this be? They don't seem to have been previously mentioned.
- Clarified that Alfred the Great was the West Saxon king. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:17, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- "and thus in an important step towards the unity of England." What unity of England? I think this needs unpacking a little further.
- Deleted as too complex and speculative. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:17, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Suggest linking landed estates.
That's all from me. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:30, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Many thanks Gog. Replies above. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:17, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
UC
[edit]You wait years for an early medieval Wales FAC, and then...
- Mercia claimed dominion over Wales: in the body, we've only said most of. How much are we talking here?
- Changed to "most of", although I suspect that is just the source being over-cautious. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:40, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- in order to gain protection from the oppression of Æthelred, Lord of the Mercians: is oppression the right NPOV word here, or are we unwittingly parroting their/Alfred's spin on the situation? From what comes later, it sounds like the Ur-source here is Asser, who isn't exactly a neutral.
- That is true, although as a monk of St David's Asser was more concerned with its oppression by the king of Dyfed. However, Asser's description is accepted by historians, and it is hard to see why the kings should have voluntarily submitted to Alfred if Æthelred was not oppressive. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:40, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Surely there's the usual reasons that any ruler submits to another -- most obviously, feeling a choice between voluntarily submitting (hopefully with benefits or at least gentle treatment) and involuntarily submitting? UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:38, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Given the chronological discussions about Gwent vs Glywysing in the body, I'd suggest putting a more concrete date on the map than just "early medieval".
- The map is from Lloyd's history. It is just labelled 'Medieval Wales'. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:40, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Right, but we have In the seventh century, south-east Wales was one kingdom called Gwent, but by the ninth century it was divided between Glywysing (later Morgannwg and Glamorgan) in the west and Gwent in the east. If we stand by the text of our article, we can therefore say that the map (with Gwent and Glwysing undivided) shows the borders of those kingdoms as they were before the ninth century, at the very least. However, on closer inspection, I have some bigger worries about the map. It has White Castle, which was built after the Norman Conquest, and Grace Dieu Abbey, which wasn't founded until 1226. How certain can we be that the other toponyms and, in particular, the borders are accurate for the time we're discussing? UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:02, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- I have changed the label from Early medieval Wales to Medieval Wales in the light of your comments (also in the Cyfeilliog article). The map shows the area of the kingdoms. There is no better map which we can use which I am aware of, and I think it is much better than having no map. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:48, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed, but we do need to caption it appropriately. If the borders of Gwent on the map are not the borders of the kingdom of Gwent that we describe, we should say so; if it's a map of 13th-century Wales but happens to have a lot of the right places labelled, we should say that too. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:39, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry I missed this. The full map in the book is labelled 'Medieval Wales'. If it is of any date it seems to be 11th century as it has Gwent, which was conquered by the Normans soon after the Conquest, and Morgannwg, a name for Glywysing which came in at the end of the tenth century. (The legend says that "9" means Morgannwg and I wrote that it means Glywysing.) I do not have any source for specifying a date, and the map may include some earlier names, but I could change the caption to "Medieval south-east Wales. The number "9" means Morgannwg, a name for Glwywsing which came in by the year 1000." The borders are not exactly known and changed with the conquests and defeats in each generation. What do you think? Dudley Miles (talk) 21:17, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- I have changed the label from Early medieval Wales to Medieval Wales in the light of your comments (also in the Cyfeilliog article). The map shows the area of the kingdoms. There is no better map which we can use which I am aware of, and I think it is much better than having no map. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:48, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- defeated the Vikings: "the Vikings" weren't (and aren't seen in scholarship) as a single group of people under that name -- we do, however, have the term "Great Heathen Army" for the force that Alfred defeated. Better to use that with some explanation?
- Historians often use the term Vikings as a general description and I do not think that going into more detail is relevant here. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:40, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think we could do better, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that the current approach is wrong. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:03, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- I was doubtful about putting in the battle at all as it is only peripherally relevant. I do not think we need to worry about using a term which is widely used by reliable sources. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:48, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Ceolwulf's successor as ruler of Mercia, Æthelred, Lord of the Mercians at the Battle of the Conwy: needs a comma after Mercians, but consider reworking to streamline the syntax a bit.
- Revised. OK now? Dudley Miles (talk) 10:40, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Comma corrected, syntax much the same, but perfectly grammatical and readable. I suppose you could argue that the "Lord of the Mercians" epithet is superfluous in a sentence that says he was, well, lord of the Mercians, and just give his name as Æthelred. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:05, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Ceolwulf was the last king of Mercia. Giving Æthelred's title is intended to signal that he had a lower rank without going into details which are irrelevant to the article. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:48, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- OK, that's fair enough. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:39, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ceolwulf was the last king of Mercia. Giving Æthelred's title is intended to signal that he had a lower rank without going into details which are irrelevant to the article. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:48, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Can we give any indication of the reasoning and the whys behind the different dates for Brochfael's accession?
- I do not think that I can find citations for a more detailed explanation. As so often, historians assume knowledge of basic points. There is only one fixed point for Brochfael's dates, Asser's mention of him in the late 880s. Apart from that, it is a matter of historians' judgements on the dates of charters which mention him, and maybe in some cases who is being referred to. Bartrum dates him 830, which is obviously wrong as he is recorded into the tenth century. Davies dates him c.872-910. Sims-Wiliams does not give an accession date (so far as I know) and says that Owain probably became king of both territitories by 893. As this looks too early and it is ambiguous whether it means he replaced Brochfael or his father as over-king I have left it out. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:40, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Owain probably became king of both territories by 893. As this looks too early and it is ambiguous whether it means he replaced Brochfael or his father as over-king I have left it out. : I'm a bit uncomfortable here -- taking no position on your judgement here, I think it's OR to say "this looks too early" purely on our own initiative. At the moment, it sounds as though we have Davies saying 910, Sims-Williams saying 893, and Charles-Edwards saying before 918 (which is compatible with either). Has anyone actually put it in print that 893 is impossible? If not, I think WP:DUEWEIGHT means we need to include it, even if we weight it as a minority view. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:17, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- I do not agree. Sims-Williams gives as a reason for the 893 date that Owain was recorded as king in 927, and cites pages in Charles-Edwards which do not support 893. Davies dates two charters of Brochfael to 905 and 910, and Sims-Williams has not questioned this dating so far as I know, or provided any reason for his 893 date. I think mentioning the date would be misleading without unreferenced qualifications. Dudley Miles (talk) 11:53, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've found out the sources, and I agree that Sims-Williams is light on justification, but he does unambiguously give the terminus post quem for Owain's rule as c. 893, not 927. Rebecca Thomas, here (search "893") also gives 893 as the terminus post quem for Owain gaining control of Glywysing and Gwent. I'm not sure it needs to contradict what's in the article already, but I do think we need at least a footnote to the effect that both Sims-Williams and Davies say that Owain's rule over the two kingdoms began at some point after c. 893. We've given a terminus ante quem, so the other side of the date range is manifestly relevant, and we need to observe both WP:DUEWEIGHT and WP:OR here. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:11, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- I do not agree. Sims-Williams gives as a reason for the 893 date that Owain was recorded as king in 927, and cites pages in Charles-Edwards which do not support 893. Davies dates two charters of Brochfael to 905 and 910, and Sims-Williams has not questioned this dating so far as I know, or provided any reason for his 893 date. I think mentioning the date would be misleading without unreferenced qualifications. Dudley Miles (talk) 11:53, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- I would give a brief introduction, at least by approximate date, to the Book of Llandaff and the Life of King Alfred.
- Added dates. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:40, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Ffernfael may have been subordinate to Brochfael: may therefore? I think we need something to tie the logic of this sentence into the previous one.
- Not sure about that one. The source does not say "therefore", so it would verge on SYNTH. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:40, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Does the source not connect those two dots at all? UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:05, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- It is successive sentences. Changed to "several show Brochfael as a royal grantor and witness, so Ffernfael may have been subordinate to Brochfael". Dudley Miles (talk) 16:48, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Brochfael's father Meurig gave grants in both territories, and Charles-Edwards and Davies think that he ruled them both as king of Glywysing: we've demoted the dissenting view into a footnote. I know it's two against one, but WP:DUEWEIGHT is not a vote -- do we have a separate good reason to think Sims-Williams is wrong? If not, I think we need to give the two sides equal billing.
- Revised. I had missed Sims-Wiliams's explanation of why he thinks Davies is wrong. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:40, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Æthelred's defeat at the Conwy: suggest reminding us of the date, particularly for readers who won't go through the article top-to-bottom.
- Brochfael and Ffernfael were joint kings of Gwent, and their cousin Hywel ap Rhys was King of Glywysing: this isn't wrong, per the MoS, but the capital on the second king reads oddly, and is inconsistent with how we've approached the same problem in the first sentence (Brochfael ap Meurig was king of Gwent in south-east Wales.. Would suggest decapitalising.
- three modii (about 120 acres (50 hectares)) of land: you can avoid the awkward double brackets by replacing the outer set with dashes. This comes up twice.
- It looks better to me the way it is. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:40, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- De gustibus -- not a problem. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:11, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- Latin text should be in lang templates, which will do the italics for you.
- Quotations that are put into italics for language reasons don't then have quotation marks around them (MOS:"?)
- Manuscript D of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle : this sounds as if we expect readers to know it already. Suggest "One [date?] manuscript of the ASC, known as Manuscript D, states..." Do the others omit this bit, though? That might be cause for concern?
- I think Manuscript D of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle is self-explanatory, and there is a link for readers who want more information. D is thought to be a northern version dating to the mid-eleventh century, and there is probably a good deal to say on this, but I do not have a source. Dudley Miles (talk) 13:25, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- It's a style point rather than a clarity one. I think it's certainly relevant that the source is perhaps over a century later than the events it describes. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:07, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree, but any comment would be an unreferenced personal opinion. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:48, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Giving the date of the manuscript, with an appropriate reference, would not -- you could cite here, p. xxv, for instance, for a date in the mid C11th. In fact, the date of a historian/historical source is the sort of context useful, perhaps essential, for non-specialist readers to properly handle the information we're giving them. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:42, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Added. Like all extant versions of the ASC, it was a conflation of earlier lost versions, but that would be going into too much detail. Dudley Miles (talk) 19:36, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- I agree, but any comment would be an unreferenced personal opinion. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:48, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- She died in around 910: just around 910 is more concise and, I think, more natural English.
- King of the people of Gwent: definitely needs a decap of king per MOS:PEOPLETITLES.
- he may have been the father of Gwriad ap Brochfael: and who was he?
- This is a difficult one. It is based on Bartrum, whose dictionary covers a vast number of Welsh people in fact and legend up to 1000. It is published by the National Library of Wales and cited by historians, but there are signs of carelessness in some entries. I have changed the comment to a footnote covering Bartrum's speculations. Dudley Miles (talk) 13:25, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Davies seems to argue with herself, and give two different dates (and levels of confidence) on Meurig's reign. Why have we given one of those in the body text (implicitly endorsing it) and the other as a footnote?
- One is a statement in the text and the other an entry in a table. I have given greater weight to the text, but I am happy to change it if you disagree. Dudley Miles (talk) 13:25, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Personally, I'm not sure we can really do that, unless it's clear from context that one is definitely not the author's intent. I don't think we can definitely say that authors or editors stand more strongly by data presented in prose than data presented in tables. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:09, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- I should have said that the table dating looks more vague. Would you prefer deleting the footnote and having "Wendy Davies thinks that 874 is more likely and dates his reign as c. 848 – c. 874 or c. 850 – c. 870"? Dudley Miles (talk) 16:48, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- If I understand you correctly, it sounds like Davies is saying the same thing with two different levels of precision, so the latter formulation would work. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:44, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- I should have said that the table dating looks more vague. Would you prefer deleting the footnote and having "Wendy Davies thinks that 874 is more likely and dates his reign as c. 848 – c. 874 or c. 850 – c. 870"? Dudley Miles (talk) 16:48, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
As with the last one, I enjoyed reading this -- a great job of reconstructing a life where the sources clearly make it difficult to know much for certain. UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:36, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Many thanks for your very detailed and helpful review UndercoverClassicist. Replies above. Dudley Miles (talk) 13:25, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Dudley Miles and UndercoverClassicist, how's this review coming along? FrB.TG (talk) 11:01, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think my points on submission, captioning and dating are still live. UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:20, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Dudley Miles and UndercoverClassicist, how's this review coming along? FrB.TG (talk) 11:01, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
Support from Tim riley
[edit]Only two quibbles from me:
- In the second sentence of the lead I'd lose "while" if I were you, as although the context makes it clear that it just means "and", I feel it safer as a general rule not to use "while" unless you mean it in the temporal sense. There's no real danger here of "the Bishop preached the sermon while the Dean read the lesson" but you might like to consider an "and" or a semicolon instead of the "while".
- Done, but you have ruined my best synonym for "and". Dudley Miles (talk) 12:39, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- In the Kingship section "Æthelred's defeat at the Conwy in 881" reads a little strangely to my eye. Somehow without the "Battle of…" before it – as at earlier mention – it looks odd, like saying "the Allies' victory at the River Plate" or "Nelson's victory at the Nile" or "the Allies and Axis forces at the Atlantic". Not wrong, but strikes an odd note, though I most definitely do not press the point, or indeed the one above it.
- Well illustrated (a pity about the lack of a mug shot, but I see from the above that one is not to be had) and a good range of mostly modern sources. Meets all the FA criteria in my view and I'm glad to support. I always enjoy reviewing Dudley's articles, but this time I had an uncovenanted bonus when my spell-checker announced that Brochfael should be either Rochdale or Bronchial. –Tim riley talk 11:12, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Many thanks Tim. King Bronchial has a certain ring to it! Dudley Miles (talk) 12:39, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments from Steelkamp
[edit]I'll have a look at this too. If you would like to do a review, I've also got an article at FAC that needs reviews. Steelkamp (talk) 14:41, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Who is "Brlochfael"? Is that a typo of Brochfael?
- Fixed. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:46, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Mercia claimed dominion over most of Wales, and in the late 880s Brochfael, Ffernfael and Hywel submitted voluntarily to Alfred the Great, King of Wessex, in order to gain protection from the oppression of Æthelred, Lord of the Mercians." Suggest changing to "Mercia claimed dominion over most of Wales, but in the late 880s Brochfael, Ffernfael and Hywel submitted voluntarily to Alfred the Great, King of Wessex, in order to gain protection from the oppression of Æthelred, Lord of the Mercians."
- "The historian of Wales Thomas Charles-Edwards thinks that he may be the Meurig..." It's not clear that this is referring to the father, and not Brochfael ap Meurig.
- Fixed. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:46, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Is there anywhere that "grants" can link to?
- I cannot find a suitable article. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:46, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- "In the previous generation, ..." Is this part of the sentence strictly necessary given that the latter part of that sentence establishes that it is talking about the father?
- It is not necessary but it is helpful to indicate at the start of the sentence that it is going back in time. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:46, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- I would change "(about 120 acres (50 hectares))" to "(about 120 acres or 50 hectares)" using
disp=or
in the convert template. This solution avoids using double brackets. Same with "(about 240 acres (100 hectares))" to "(about 240 acres or 100 hectares)".
- "...which Brochfael gave to his daughter, ..." Is this Brochfael's daughter or Cyfeilliog's daugher?
- I think "his" must be Brochfael grammatically. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:46, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Manuscript D of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle states that in 927 Owain, king of the people of Gwent..." Suggest adding a comma after 927 and before Owain.
That's all the comments I have. Steelkamp (talk) 15:30, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for your review Steelkamp. Replies above. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:46, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- I have no more comments to make, so I give my support. Steelkamp (talk) 07:36, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
Support from Ceoil
[edit]Have read through (with trivial edits) a few times and have been following the reviews above. Really like these Anglo-Saxon Kingship articles, and this one is very clearly written and precise with no unnecessary padding. Sourcing is excellent, and I gather that info is so scant that it easily passes comprehensiveness. Ceoil (talk) 21:51, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Many thanks Ceoil. I have removed the word "believes" in your edits. Some historians strongly object to it as they think it implies an opinion not supported by reasoning, as with religious belief. Dudley Miles (talk) 22:19, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah was thinking you might :) Was trying to avoid "thinks" x 2, and there was the hedge "may be" just afterwards. It's something I struggle a bit when writing about the dating of Iron-age artifacts. So no worries. Ceoil (talk) 22:24, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
Serial
[edit]- Although the caption says that Glywysing is the 9, the map seems to suggest that that is Gwynllyg. Am I misreading it?!
- The map covers the whole medieval period. 9 is Glywysing, and Gwynllyg is a later medieval kingdom. Dudley Miles (talk) 15:19, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- The lead doesn't actually say much about Brochfael the king himself, more the regional politics.
- There is only one sentence in the lead which does not mention Brochfael. Dudley Miles (talk) 15:19, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- "having a higher status" > the higher status.
- Anothr map, showing the broader geography—where Mercia, Wessex etc were positioned in relation to Glywysing would be useful for the background. (Maybe a crop of this?)
- I agree that a broader map would be helpful, but the one you link to is of Britain in 600, 300 years too early. There is a better map at [23], but it is of the mid 10th century and shows Gwent as one large territory, so it might confuse people. What do you think. Dudley Miles (talk) 15:19, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- re. Ffernfael's subordinacy, probably worth adding "Charles-Edwards has speculated", since no-one else has; indeed, it's odd that he doesn't mention the dangers of relying too heavily on charters when it is known that only a (random) percentage have survived.
- I think "may have been subordinate" is sufficient qualification. Other historians have not made the point because Ffernfael is such a minor figure that he is rarely mentioned. He is only recorded twice, by Asser and as a witness to one charter of his father, and I think he probably died soon after Asser mentioned him, but of course I cannot says so. I take your point about charters and have qualified by saying "Ffernfael does not have any surviving charters of his own". Dudley Miles (talk) 15:19, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- All from me. Nice one Dudley Miles, compact but comprehensive. Cheers, SerialNumber54129 13:16, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for your review Serial_Number_54129. Replies above. Dudley Miles (talk) 15:19, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- All good changes, Dudley Miles, mutatis mutandis, and I'm very happy to support this article's promotion. I love the obscure fugures! SerialNumber54129 18:57, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
Support from Unlimitedlead
[edit]- "Mercia claimed dominion over most of Wales..." Suggest changing to "The Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Mercia claimed dominion over most of Wales..." for clarity.
- "The historian of Wales..." This sounds like an official title. Suggest revising to: "Thomas Charles-Edwards, a historian specializing in Welsh history, thinks that Meurig...", or something of that vein in order for improved sentence flow.
- Introduce Wendy Davies; we do not know who she is.
- Revised to cover both points. Dudley Miles (talk) 07:16, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Why does Davies postulate a different date?
- Davies attributes it to "the claims of the relative chronology of the witness sequence". I intend working on an article on Meurig, and I think the question is better covered there. Dudley Miles (talk) 07:16, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Can more be said about Brochfael's own family? The fact that he had a daughter is suddenly thrust open the reader in the last few sentences.
- This is the only reference to a daughter. A speculative suggestion that he had a son is covered in note b. Dudley Miles (talk) 07:16, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
Please notify me when you have had the chance to reply to my concerns. Great work; it's always nice to see more history articles here at FA :) Unlimitedlead (talk) 01:54, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the review Unlimitedlead. Replies above. Dudley Miles (talk) 07:16, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Goodness, Dudley. I didn't even realize this article was written by you! It's been nice catching up with an old friend. I'd be happy to pass this review; great work as always! Cheers, Unlimitedlead (talk) 11:31, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support. Another very readable article. The only minor point I would raise is the caption on the map, which refers to "Medieval south-east Wales"; as that covers about a millennia, and as the boundaries shifted (or at least territories merged and separated), can we be more precise on the date? Fair enough if the sources don't clarify tyhe point, but worth checking. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 08:27, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks SchroCat. On the map caption, see the discussion with UndercoverClassicist above. Any suggestions how to deal with this welcome. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:15, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I like your suggestion further up of captioning Medieval south-east Wales. The number "9" means Morgannwg, a name for Glwywsing which came in by the year 1000, but would like to be even more explicit in the first part: something like Map of south-east Wales, showing sites from throughout the medieval period (c. 600 – c. 1300) (or whatever date range the book uses for "medieval"). It's not ideal that the map doesn't really match our time period, but it's a necessary evil -- however, I think we have to be really clear with readers so that they know what they are and are not getting. UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:09, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'd be happy with that too. - SchroCat (talk) 12:10, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks UndercoverClassicist and SchroCat. The subtitle is "From the Earliest Times to the Edwardian Conquest". Lloyd does not date the start of the medieval period, but the book ends with the death of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd in 1282. I do not think I can say it shows sites throughout the period as I do not know. How about "Map of medieval south-east Wales, fifth to thirteenth centuries. The number "9" west of Gwent is listed in the map legend as Morgannwg, which superceded Glywysing as the name for the kingdom at the end of the tenth century."? Dudley Miles (talk) 12:34, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Works for me. - SchroCat (talk) 12:36, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Works for me too. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:42, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Works for me. - SchroCat (talk) 12:36, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'd be happy with that too. - SchroCat (talk) 12:10, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks SchroCat. On the map caption, see the discussion with UndercoverClassicist above. Any suggestions how to deal with this welcome. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:15, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
BTW I forgot to mention in the blurb a curious point, which is that when I created this article, there were already articles about Brochfael in the French and Russian Wikipedias, but not in Welsh. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:04, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:39, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
This article is about an Afro-Cuban religion revolving around spirits that are housed in cauldrons and fed with blood. Much of the tradition derives from the Kongo religion of Central Africa, so there is much here to interest Africanists as well as those intrigued by religions of the Americas. This has been a Good Article since August 2023 and I am now hoping to bring it to FA status, having already done so for two other Afro-Caribbean religion articles, Santería and Rastafari. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:39, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Image review
- Suggest editing captions for grammar
- I've gone through and made some tweaks to the image captions. Any further recommendations on these captions would of course be welcome. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Suggest adding alt text
- I've gone through the article and added these to the images. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:35, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- File:WLA_metmuseum_Power_Figure_Male_Nkisi.jpg: what is the copyright status of the work pictured?
- In this case, the creator of the original nkisi being photographed will probably never be known; nor will the exact date when it was made, although it is dated to between 1800 and 1950. The object is nevertheless on display in a public museum and the photograph has been issued under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.5 Generic license. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:41, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- The photograph's licensing is not an issue, but as the US does not have freedom of panorama for non-buildings, we do need to account for the copyright status of the work as well. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:43, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- As we don't have access to the copyright status of the original object (as the creator is now de facto anonymous), could we maybe use a picture of a nkisi from a museum in a different country that does have freedom of panorama for non-buildings? Could we use this (File:Nkisi-Songye (British Museum).jpg) image from the UK, for instance? Or this one (File:Nkisi figure, Congo, DR Congo, early 20th century - Rautenstrauch-Joest-Museum - Cologne, Germany.jpg) from Germany? Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- File:Goetia_seals.jpg: are these taken directly from the Lesser Key, or are they original works?
- The explanation given by the original uploader claims that they are their own original illustrations, but looking closely, the fact that there are numbers right by them suggests that this is actually a scan from a printed edition of the Lesser Key, which will probably be late 19th or early-to-mid 20th-century in date. I think the safest bet is just to get rid of this image from the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- File:Fétiche_du_Bas-Congo.jpg: what is the copyright status of the work pictured, and if the author is unknown how do we know they died over 70 years ago?
- I've changed the licensing on this one; as it was published in Belgium in the first decade of the 20th century, we should be able to use the following: "This image is in the public domain in the United States because it was first published outside the United States prior to January 1, 1929." Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:13, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- What about the author question? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:43, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Unfortunately we will almost certainly never know who the author was. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- File:Adechina.jpg needs a US tag, and if the author is unknown how do we know they died over 100 years ago? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:35, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- I've removed this image from the article; while the photograph is late 19th-century in origin, I am unsure when it was first published, which raises issues when trying to determine its copyright status. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:35, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
Coordinator note
[edit]This has been open for over three weeks and has yet to pick up a support. Unless there's substantial progress in the next few days, it is liable to be archived. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 14:04, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've been waiting for the right moment to review this one, will it postpone it being archived if I begin soon? FunkMonk (talk) 23:04, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ok, the nomination seems to have been "saved" by three reviews beginning before I got the time, but feel free to ping me if it somehow stalls. FunkMonk (talk) 21:52, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hey FunkMonk the nomination has picked up more reviews but it would only be improved by additional commentary. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 13:38, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ok, the nomination seems to have been "saved" by three reviews beginning before I got the time, but feel free to ping me if it somehow stalls. FunkMonk (talk) 21:52, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
Jens
[edit]I already started on this a few days ago. Very difficult for me to find any issues here (it is an excellent and very solid work as always), but here is what I got so far, more soon:
- link "orthodoxy"?
- meaning "a person who works a nganga" – Nganga is mentioned here for the first time in the main text, not sure if this needs a short gloss?
- A good idea. I've added the following to the end of the sentence: ", the latter being the spirit-vessel central to the religion." Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:09, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- From reading the article it seems to me that this religion has more connections to forests than similar African diasporic religions, maybe because the Bakongo originally depended on the African rainforest? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 23:50, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- It is possible, although even among certain West African groups like the Fon, initiatory rituals will take place in the forest (Timothy Landry's book discusses this), so the Bakongo were not alone in regarding the forest as a place ideally suited for spirit contact. Moreover, even in more West African-derived diasporic traditions, such as Santería and Candomblé, there is some importance placed on going into the forest to collect healing plants. Midnightblueowl (talk) 08:55, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Caption: human skull and bones displayed in the Museo de Orishas in Havana. Human remains are included in the nganga of Palo. – Does this particular specimen on display have any connections with Palo? If so, could these be pointed out?
- Unfortunately I'm not sure exactly what this specimen actually represents. I chose it because we lack good photographs at Wikimedia Commons to illustrate this article (we could really do with a photo of an actual nganga), so have had to use less relevant imagery. Do you think this image should be removed? Midnightblueowl (talk) 08:55, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- judíasto – space missing
- Well spotted; corrected. Midnightblueowl (talk) 08:55, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- When a new nganga is created for a padre or madre, – I couldn't follow here; "padre" and "madre" are mentioned here for the first time but are not explained. Maybe they can be avoided here (maybe replace with "senior practitioner")?
- Good point. I've just gone with "practitioner" as a replacement, as it is simpler. Midnightblueowl (talk) 08:55, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- and draw marks on their body, often in cascarilla – what does this mean? Cascarilla is a plant? What is "draw in cascarilla"?
- I don't have Ochoa's book to hand, but I assume that the marks are drawn in a paste made from cascarilla. I'll remove mention of the plant for now, however, until I can confirm this. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:25, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Practitioners kneel before the ngangas in greeting; they often greet it – should "it" be "them" so that the plural matches?
- Yes, that makes sense. I'll change it. Midnightblueowl (talk) 08:55, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- they often greet it with the words "Salaam alaakem, malkem salaam." – Can this be translated?
- Dodson doesn't give a translation in his text, unfortunately, which is the only reliable source I have found to support this statement. It seems obvious that the phrase comes from the Arabic greeting that means "peace be upon you", but I am unsure if Palo practitioners (very few of whom are likely to speak Arabic) would use it to convey the same exact meaning. It may be that they are simply repeating a phrase that bears ritual significance but for which the original connotations (perhaps brought over by enslaved African Muslims) has been lost. If the latter scenario is the case, a comparison could be made with the term nganga, which means something quite different in Palo from what it meant to Kikongo speakers in Central Africa. To try and deal with the situation, what I have done here is added a link to the Wikipedia article on As-salamu alaykum. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:53, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- does its keeper's bidding, the latter sometimes threaten it, – "threatens"?
- Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:09, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- In "Beliefs", there is this sentence: Senior practitioners may have multiple ngangas, some of which they have inherited from their own teachers. In "Practises", this is stated: At their initiation ceremony to the level of padre or madre, a palero/palera will often be given their own nganga. – This now sounds as if most paleros don't have their own nganga? That's not what I imagined after reading the "beliefs" section. Maybe this could be shortly mentioned in the "beliefs" section too.
- I've added the following to the Beliefs section: "A practitioner may receive a nganga only once they have reached a certain level of seniority in the tradition,". Hopefully that makes things clearer at an earlier stage in the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:06, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Some practitioners are content to remain at this level and do not pursue further initiation to reach the level of padre or madre. – This contradicts the earlier statement that initiation into padre or madre is "rare". Should it be "Most practitioners are content to remain at this level"?
- There might be some difference in emphasis on these points because we are citing two separate authors, who will obviously have worked with different Palo groups. To try and deal with this, maybe I should change "some" to "many" here? That shifts the emphasis without being as definitive as "most" suggests. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, that sounds reasonable to me. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 10:57, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- There might be some difference in emphasis on these points because we are citing two separate authors, who will obviously have worked with different Palo groups. To try and deal with this, maybe I should change "some" to "many" here? That shifts the emphasis without being as definitive as "most" suggests. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- When the tata or yayi or a house is close to death, – How can a house be dead?
- "or" should be "of" here! Corrected. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:09, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- After this leader's death, other senior initiates often have the option – Is this indeed only referring to the death of the new leader, and does not apply when the original leader dies?
- I've changed this sentence to the following: "Alternatively, at a leader's death, the senior initiates of the house may leave to join another or establish their own." Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- it is also expected that sacrifices one the ngangas cumplimiento – please check grammar
- Oh dear, what happened here. It's a mess. I've reworded it so that it makes sense. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:25, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Is there any membership fee for being part of a house? Or how do the leaders sustain themselves?
- I suspect that there is a fee for initiation, as this is common in African diasporic traditions. House leaders may also offer ritual services to clients, again something common in related religions. It is also possible that they will have employment separate from their ritual tasks. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:15, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- A practitioner may later experience a second rayamiento, enabling them to become a full-ranking initiate of the praise house and thus create their own nganga. – Does this mean becoming "padre" or "madre" (terms that were used earlier)?
- Yes, I believe so. Do you think that we need to make this clear? Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:54, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think it would be a bit clearer if you use the same terms here (madre, padre) that you used earlier. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 10:57, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Will do! Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:53, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think it would be a bit clearer if you use the same terms here (madre, padre) that you used earlier. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 10:57, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I believe so. Do you think that we need to make this clear? Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:54, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- the Cuban anthropologist Lydia Cabrera studied made a study of Palo – remove one "study"
- Oops, yes, I was meant to delete the latter in my final read-through/edit before taking this to FAC. Removed now. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:15, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Palo is found all over Cuba, although is particularly strong in the island's eastern provinces. – "it" missing?
- I've added the "it" into the sentence. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:09, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Midnightblueowl: That's all from me. Fascinating article, and I expect to support this soon. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 18:34, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Jens Lallensack: I really appreciate you taking the time to read through the article and offer your thoughts on how to improve it. I'm glad that you found it interesting. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:06, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, looks good! A few replies above. There is one point you did not yet reply to ("Salaam alaakem, malkem salaam"). --Jens Lallensack (talk) 10:57, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oops, I was going to go back to that one and address it, but clearly forgot. I have now added a response. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:53, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, looks good! A few replies above. There is one point you did not yet reply to ("Salaam alaakem, malkem salaam"). --Jens Lallensack (talk) 10:57, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Jens Lallensack: I really appreciate you taking the time to read through the article and offer your thoughts on how to improve it. I'm glad that you found it interesting. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:06, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 14:04, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments by Alavense
[edit]- It may be worth saying that ramas is Spanish for "branches".
- paleros if male, paleras in female
- A similarly pejorative term embraced by some adherents is brujo (witch) - I think "witch" is generally only used to refer to women, whereas brujo is a masculine term.
- which has its origins among the secret male societies practiced among the Efik-Ibibio. - Maybe it would read more clearly if "which has its origins among the secret male societies and is practiced among the Efik-Ibibio".
- it is sometimes said that they have "cruzar palo con cha" - That doesn't quite work, because cruzar is the infinitive, not the participle as in "crossed".
- The anthropologist Todd Ramón Ochoa, an initiate of Palo Briyumba, described Nsambi - I think "describes" would be better.
- Mama canata is the only term in which the second word is spelled in lowercase. Is this due to anything in particular?
- with Kerestetzi observing that one of Palo's central features was its belief - Again, I think "is" would be more suitable. There are other instances of this.
- rinconcito ("little corners") - rinconcito is singular.
- Is casuela spelt like that in the sources?
- it is the divine itself[...] - A space is missing there.
- Sometimes, the bones of a criminal or mad person are deliberately sought - Why? It feels a bit counterintuitive, doesn't it?
- Is trata the word used in the sources?
- attempts to "cool" and settle them - Why use quotation marks for cool? There's more than one instance of this.
- "cerré el pacto" literally means "I sealed the deal".
- The human remains included in them is - Are?
- it is said to be nacer - "it is said to nacer" would work, as it is in the infinitive.
- that the power of nganga cristianas are - Is?
- Havana is not linked anywhere.
- Munanso congo form familias de religion - I guess this will depend on the sources, but in standard Spanish religion is spelt with a tilde, religión.
- mayordomo is Spanish for "steward" or "butler", in case you may want to add that.
- Drawings called firmas, their name derived from the Spanish for "signature" - firmas is literally signatures, so can that be really said to be "derived"?
- firmas's - firmas being plural, I guess it should be either "firmas'" or "firma's".
- The creation of these drawings are - Is?
- Is cumplimiento in the sources?
- Animal sacrifice is thus a key part of Palo ritual, where it is known by the Spanish language term matanza - Maybe it ought to be said that matanza doesn't mean sacrifice.
- in the el Cuarto de religión - in el cuarto de religión, given that el already means "the". And I don't see why "Cuarto" has to be uppercase in any of the two instances.
- Students are instructed in Palo through stories, songs, and the recollections of elders; they will also watch their elders and seek to decipher the latter's riddles - What does "latter" refer to there?
- "muertos oscuros entities" reads a bit weird. Maybe a comma after the parenthesis would do the trick.
- It's nación in the singular but naciones, without the tilde, in the plural, not naciónes.
- If Esteban Montejo is the one you are referring to, you can link the article.
- cofradias should be cofradías.
- placing their victim's bones in Palo cauldrons - If there were 14 people killed, then "victims'", no?
- Is Louis Bertrand (saint) the saint you mention?
- You could use {{ill}} to link Adiós Hemingway.
That's my lot. Kind regards, Alavense (talk) 18:49, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments from Mike Christie
[edit]- "It arose amid a process of syncretism": shouldn't this be "via" or "through", rather than "amid"?
- "A key ingredient are sticks, called palos, which are selected from specific species of tree": suggest "Sticks, called palos, are key ingredients; palos are selected from specific species of tree" to avoid the awkward singular subject with plural verb.
- "Soil from various locations is added, for instance from a graveyard, hospital, prison, and a market, as may water from": this sort of parallel constructions requires "is ... is" or "may ... may" if the verb is to be avoided, but the sense here won't allow that. How about "Soil from various locations is added, for instance from a graveyard, hospital, prison, and a market, and water may also be added, from sources such as ..."
- "the more significant they are often regarded": suggest "the more significant they are often considered to be".
- "The senior practitioner creating the nganga may ask a madre or padre to assist them, something considered a great privilege": this comes before we have said what madre and padre refer to.
- "will divine to ensure that everything is going okay": "okay" is a bit colloquial for encyclopedic tone; how about "going well"?
- "the tata or yayi may not tell the padre/madre": do you mean they are not permitted to tell, or it is possible that they will not tell? I think the latter but it's not clear. If I'm right, how about "may choose not to tell"?
- "Styles of drumming that have been transmitted within Palo include the ritmas congos and influencias bantu." Without either an explanation of the styles or a translation of the words this doesn't really tell the reader anything.
- "On arriving in Cuba, many enslaved Bakongo people would have brought their traditional religions with them": suggest "Many of the enslaved Bakongo people who arrived in Cuba would have brought their traditional religions with them" - there's no connection to the moment of arrival.
- "The histories of these objects in Cuba is unclear": number mismatch between "histories" and "is".
- Have any estimates been made of the number of adherents, in Cuba or elsewhere?
Generally this is in great shape and I expect to support once these minor points are addressed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:43, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): Steelkamp (talk) 08:32, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
This article is about Australian politician John Tonkin. This is my first featured article candidate for a politician and, if successful, would by my longest featured article yet. Tonkin was the longest serving member of the Parliament of Western Australia, at 44 years, and was the premier of Western Australia for three years. My main sources are the Australian Dictionary of Biography's entry on Tonkin and a book by Peter Kennedy, supplemented with newspapers from Trove and the Australian Political Chronicle in the Australian Journal of Politics and History. Many thanks to GMH Melbourne for reviewing this article at GAN. I look forward to receiving any comments. Steelkamp (talk) 08:32, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
I'll do a full review later, but I'd recommend merging the sections "Early political career", down to ""Premier (1971–1974)" into one section titled "Political career". 750h+ 00:43, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'd rather not have such a large portion of the article under one section and I think the current sectioning works. Steelkamp (talk) 03:06, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
Image review
- File:Nuralingup_school,_1920s,_cropped.jpg: when and where was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:14, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- I am not sure, so I will remove that image. Steelkamp (talk) 06:54, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
Comments by Dudley
[edit]- "Tonkin was a minister in the John Willcock, Frank Wise and Bert Hawke governments". I suggest "previously a minister" as you have just mentioned his later premiership.
- Done.
- "After working several jobs". "Working...jobs" sounds wrong to me, but maybe it is AusEng?
- I've reworded this.
- "Tonkin became interested in politics at a young age as his father was a unionist and a supporter of the Australian Labor Party." I would not say "as". Children of politicians are not necessarily interested in politics. Maybe "His father was a unionist and a supporter of the Australian Labor Party and Tonkin became interested in politics at a young age."
- Done.
- "After leaving school age of 15". "After leaving school at 15"?
- Done.
- "party figure Joe Chamberlain". "Party figure" is too colloquial and you do not say how it helped him.
- I will have to take some more time on this one. I'm not entirely sure what Chamberlain's exact position at the Labor Party was at the time. I'm going to take a look at Chamberlain's autobiography to see what I can find there. It's possible that Chamberlain wasn't even in an important role in the Labor Party at the time. In that case, I will just remove any mention of Chamberlain here.
- Update: I've decided to remove the part mentioning Chamberlain. It seems he wasn't in a position of authority in the Labor Party at the time.
- "Douglas credit committee" You should explain this in the same sentence. For example, "Douglas credit committee to assess the proposal".
- Done. I've moved the explanation to the same sentence.
- I think you need some clarity on this. It sounds like a local proposal from your wording. If I understand correctly, it was a Labor party state committee which examined the theory of a British economist about the solution to the Great Depression and its application by the Federal Australian government. I am not sure it is worth mentioning and I do not think you can say that the committee "ruled" on it.
- I've made some changes to this section. I think its relevant to mention because it shows Tonkin becoming more involved with internal party affairs and is a result of him gaining a profile from his previous attempts to enter parliament.
- "became standout members of the backbench" "standout" is POV. Maybe "leading".
- Done.
- "Wise was elected to the ministry". What does "elected" mean here"? Were ministers elected by Labor assembly members? You say below that Tonkin was appointed a minister.
- I have changed it to say that the Labor caucus elected them.
- "Tonkin spent much of that time on leave without pay". Why? What did he do? Did he serve in action? Was he discharged because he was coming up to 40 years old?
- I'm not sure. The sources don't say why.
- "appointed by cabinet to travel to the eastern states to lobby Prime Minister John Curtin". You need to explain that Curtin was federal Prime Minister and I do not think you need to mention eastern states.
- I reply re federal prime minister in the comment below. I mention eastern states because sources disagree as to whether they visited Melbourne or Canberra (possibly both).
- You refer to state premier and federal Prime Minister. Are there different titles at different levels in Australia? If so, I think you need to explain as premier and prime minister are synonyms in British usage.
- I've changed it so that "prime minister of Australia" and "premier of Western Australia" are written out in full the first time those terms are mentioned in the body. I hope that is enough distinction between the two positions. In Australia, prime minister is exclusively used to refer to the head of the federal government and premier is exclusively used to refer to the head of a state government. I've hesitant to use terms such as "federal prime minister" because that is not a term that is used often (if at all) in Australia, and it is not a source of confusion for Australians or those familiar with Australian politics.
- "Premier John Willcock appointed Tonkin as the minister for education, fulfilling a long-held dream of Tonkin's,[17] and minister for social services, a newly-created position, in the Willcock ministry." This is confusing. Were the appointments simultaneous or successive, and you do not need to say "in the Willcock ministry" as you have said that Willcock appointed him.
- The appointments were simultaneous, which I think is clear because the sentence begins with "On 9 December 1943", which was the date he was appointed to the ministry.
- "Tonkin saw his greatest achievements in education being the merging of one-teacher schools into larger schools, commonplace in rural areas. I think it should be "as being". Also, what was commonplace, one-teacher or larger? This is ambiguous.
- Fixed. I've rearranged the sentence to make this clearer.
- "Nevertheless, the commission made no findings against Tonkin." What was he charged with? This is not clear.
- I've decided to completely remove that section. Only the Australian Dictionary of Biography source mentions that, and the royal commission report does not mention Tonkin at all.
- "state aid for private schools". You do not need to repeat the expression three times in a short paragraph.
- I've removed the second use of this phrase.
- "it still retained government". This sounds odd to me. I would say "it still retained power".
- Done.
- More to follow. Dudley Miles (talk) 11:05, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- "In the Legislative Council" You should explain that this is the upper house.
- Done, and explained the lower house as well earlier.
- "The twelve-man ministry was chosen by the Labor caucus and Tonkin had the responsibility of allocating the specific ministerial positions." You should explain this above when you say that Tonkin lost in the caucus election.
- I've added it to when he is first elected to the ministry as that's where I think it fits best.
- "The next election was held in December 1943; parliament's term had been extended by one year as a one-off measure due to the war.[14] Labor won for the fourth time in a row, and in the days following, the Labor caucus elected Tonkin to the ministry.[18] Premier John Willcock appointed Tonkin as the minister for education" For clarity, I suggest something like "The next election was held in December 1943. Parliament's term had been extended by one year as a one-off measure due to the war[14] and Labor won for the fourth time in a row. The ministry was chosen by the Labor caucus and the premier allocated their roles. Tonkin was elected and[18] Premier John Willcock appointed him as minister for education". Dudley Miles (talk) 10:05, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Done. Steelkamp (talk) 16:44, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- "and so over the course of the Tonkin government, 21 bills were voted down by the Legislative Council". I would leave out "so" as implying that specifically 21 were lost.
- Done.
- "Labor had lost its majority and Coalition supporters called for a snap election, believing that the Coalition would win." You should clarify here that the loss was only pending the byelection.
- Done.
- "Court was unusually exuberant, even going doorknocking in Belmont". "exuberant" is an odd word here.
- I've changed that word, although I would have been fine with exuberant.
- "much to the surprise of Labor MP Don Taylor." How is this relevant to Tonkin?
- I've removed that part, as its already covered by the word "unusually" in that sentence.
- "against Liberal candidate Fred Chaney, albeit with a reduction in the seat's margin by around 10 per cent". The article on the byelection says that the Liberals did not stand in the previous election. "a reduction in the seat's margin" is meaningless.
- Turns out the the source is comparing the by-election with the 1968 result, which I have clarified in the article.
- "the seat's margin" is meaningless. Maybe "winning the by-election against Liberal candidate Fred Chaney, who was only 12% behind even though the Liberals had not stood in the 1971 state election". Dudley Miles (talk) 10:05, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've decided to just get rid of that part. The by-election wasn't very close. The noteworthy part was the decline in Labor support, but as the 1971 election was not contested by the Liberals, making comparisons gets murky. I don't have a map of the electoral districts in 1968 and 1971, so its possible that changes in support for Labor and Liberal could be down to changes in boundaries. Steelkamp (talk) 16:44, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- "however, bureaucrats at the mines department were opposed". "bureaucrats" is POV. Maybe "officials".
- Done.
- "boycotted visits to Western Australia by the South Africa national cricket team and South Africa national rugby union team amidst apartheid". "amidst" is odd and unclear. Did he boycott specifically because black people were excluded from representing South Africa or as a general gesture against apartheid?
- I've added an additional source and reworded this section a bit.
- "The machine was discarded by the Court government due to being ineffective." Presumably the succeeding Court government.
- Done.
- "The appointment angered the party caucus though due to the Tonkin government's one-seat majority and due to Graham being one of the government's better ministers." This is clumsy. Maybe "The appointment angered the party caucus in view of the Tonkin government's one-seat majority and because Graham was considered one of the government's better ministers."
- Done.
- "Opposition Leader Charles Court". Here and in othee places I do not think "Opposition Leader" should be capitalised.
- I would have thought it should be capitalised in those situations because it's directly followed by a persons name as per MOS:JOBTITLES.
- "Arthur Tonkin. You should clarify whether he was related to John Tonkin, and if so, how.
- They are not related, which I have clarified.
- "He delayed further pressure. Maybe "He resisted further pressure".
- Done.
- "By that point though, it was too close to the next election for it to be a good idea to change leaders." This should not be stated as a fact but as the opinion of specified people.
- Done.
- Presumably, elections were held every three years. This should be spelled out.
- Done.
- "a swing against Labor of 0.81 per cent." This is a minimal swing. The article on the election says it was 2.5%.
- I have clarified that this is referring to the primary vote swing and not the two-party-preferred swing.
- The linked article does not explain primary vote spring. Maybe "first preference vote swing". Dudley Miles (talk) 10:05, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've modified the linked article as primary vote is just a synonym of first preference vote, and its shorter so I prefer that phrase. Steelkamp (talk) 16:44, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Many people laid the blame". This is too vague. What people?
- I reckon that is covered by the rest of that paragraph, which mentions Ian Thompson, Charles Court and his wife Joan.
- "chose not to recontest his seat" What does recontext mean here. He chose not to contest it.
- I've changed it to "contest", which is simpler and has the same meaning.
- "This came under controversy" This is clumsy. I think you should say that it was opposed.
- Done.
- There does not seem to be any logic which sources you put in the bibliography and which only in the references. I would put them all in the bibliography for the convenience of readers, but this is a personal opinion. Dudley Miles (talk) 11:04, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- The logic I used is to put sources that use multiple different pages in the bibliography, which is where shortened footnotes are really useful. Steelkamp (talk) 05:25, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think it is better to have all sources in the bibliography so that readers can easily see what sources have been used, but as I said, that is a personal opinion. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:05, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Would you be ok if I put all the book sources in the bibliography? Steelkamp (talk) 16:44, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- I leave it to you. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Many thanks for your comments Dudley Miles. I have responded to everything now. Steelkamp (talk) 12:50, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support. Looks fine now. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments from Mike Christie
[edit]I should be able to post comments tomorrow. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:22, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
I've copyedited as I read through; please revert anything I screwed up.
"Tonkin was previously a minister in": suggest "Tonkin had been a minister in"- Done.
"When Labor won the 1953 state election, he reassumed his role as a minister, most notably serving as the minister for works and minister for water." From a glance at the body he held these roles for the entirety of the 1953 government, so it would seem simpler to say "When Labor won the 1953 state election, Tonkin became the minister for works and minister for water".- Well he was also the minister for education for a short while, so I've changed to to "he reassumed his role as a minister, including as the minister for works and minister for water."
"By-elections occurred in 1971 and 1973, each resulting in the near defeat of Labor." Suggest "By-elections occurred in 1971 and 1973, each of which was narrowly won by Labor".- Done.
"He contested the state electoral district of Sussex in 1927 and Murray-Wellington in 1930". Can it be made clear whether this election was for the upper or lower state house?- Done.
How about making that sentence "He unsuccessfully contested the ..." and then the next sentence could be shortened to "These campaigns helped him gain a profile within the Labor Party"?- Done.
"appointed Tonkin to the Douglas credit committee to assess C. H. Douglas's social credit theory that ...": suggest just "... to a committee to assess ..."; the name of the committee doesn't tell the reader anything they don't get from the rest of the sentence.- Done.
I don't think any change to the article is needed, but I'm curious -- were the Australian states issuing money independently of each other, in which case Douglas's theory could have led to a change in Western Australian banking and currency, or was this a more theoretical exercise to determine if the WA state wanted to support Douglas's ideas at the federal level?- The latter. Each Labor Party state branch could make its own policy, which could be used to influence the federal party's policy.
"The Labor caucus elected Wise to the ministry": does this just mean Wise became a minister? I think in the UK one would say "he joined the cabinet"; "the ministry" isn't a phrase one would use to mean ministerial positions in general.- It just means Wise became a minister. The Wikipedia article Ministry (collective executive) seems to be using the word in this way. Each premier's ministry has an article, such as Willcock ministry or Hawke ministry (Western Australia). Also, the source seems to be using ministry in this way. In Western Australia, the ministry and the cabinet are one and the same, but at the federal level and in some states, the cabinet consists of only the more senior ministers.
"which led him to put greater concentration on his seat". A bit vague -- did he spend more time in his district, have more meetings with constituents, change his focus to work on issues important to his constituency?- The source is a bit vague. All it says is "Concentrating on his electorate after nearly losing his seat in the 1936 poll, ..."
- It appears that source is citing this, which I don't have access to. If you can't get hold of that how about "led him to pay more attention to the needs of his constituency"? Also vague, but perhaps a bit closer to the meaning of the ADB source. I know the oral history source can't be used for much as it's primary, in a sense, but where it's been cited by an RS I think referring to it would be fine. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:57, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- That source is already cited for three direct quotes, and you should be able to access a pdf version here. I could only find the part about the "bull at a gate" (pdf page 140) but not the part about concentrating on his constituents. It's probably in there somewhere, but not able to be found using "control f". Either way, I'm hesitant to use that source for anything other than direct quotes. I've managed to expand the period after 1936 using the ADB source by writing "He improved his skills in parliament and adjusted his approach to be less aggressive and more measured." Steelkamp (talk) 01:12, 14 August 2024 (UTC)\
- Sorry, should have recognized that you were already using that source. That works for me. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:06, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- That source is already cited for three direct quotes, and you should be able to access a pdf version here. I could only find the part about the "bull at a gate" (pdf page 140) but not the part about concentrating on his constituents. It's probably in there somewhere, but not able to be found using "control f". Either way, I'm hesitant to use that source for anything other than direct quotes. I've managed to expand the period after 1936 using the ADB source by writing "He improved his skills in parliament and adjusted his approach to be less aggressive and more measured." Steelkamp (talk) 01:12, 14 August 2024 (UTC)\
- It appears that source is citing this, which I don't have access to. If you can't get hold of that how about "led him to pay more attention to the needs of his constituency"? Also vague, but perhaps a bit closer to the meaning of the ADB source. I know the oral history source can't be used for much as it's primary, in a sense, but where it's been cited by an RS I think referring to it would be fine. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:57, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- The source is a bit vague. All it says is "Concentrating on his electorate after nearly losing his seat in the 1936 poll, ..."
"but Tonkin spent much of that time without pay": it's not clear what period this refers to -- May to December 1941? December 41 to January 42? If the former, why "but"? Being called up for deployment in December doesn't imply he should have been paid prior to that date.- This is referring to December 1941 to January 1942, which I reckon is clear because the leave without pay part is directly after the part that says the battalion was mobilised.
"were appointed by cabinet to travel": should this be "appointed by the cabinet to travel", or is the usual usage in Australian English?- This is usual in AusEng. See the Cabinet Handbook, which says "by Cabinet" 15 times.
"The next election was held in December 1943 ...": suggesting making it clear we are still talking about WA state elections -- the last seat we mentioned was Curtin's in the federal government.- Done.
"parliament's term had been extended by one year as a one-off measure due to the war": I don't think we need "as a one-off measure".- Done.
"...the Labor caucus elected Tonkin to the ministry. Premier John Willcock appointed Tonkin as the minister for education ...". I see you're using "to the ministry" again, so it seems this may be standard usage in AusEng. This makes it sound as if the caucus gets to pick who is in the cabinet, and then the Premier assigns them a portfolio. Is that right? So Willcock couldn't give a portfolio to someone the caucus had not elected, and the caucus had no say in the portfolios of those they elected? If so maybe a footnote explaining this process would be helpful, and if not then I don't understand what's going on here. Added later: I see from the section on 1971-74 that this is indeed how it works, so I would suggest moving the explanation up or (I think the better option) putting the explanation in a footnote at the first point it's relevant.- I think you wrote that before I made some changes in response to Dudley's review above. You are correct that the caucus elects the ministry and the premier allocates the portfolios. I've added that this is just a Labor Party rule.
"made himself the minister or works and the minister for water supplies". The latter is just given as "minister for water" in the lead. I see from the linked article that the title of the post has varied over the years. I think if you're going to use lower case, I'd stick with one usage throughout -- "minister for water" is probably simplest. If you want to use "Minister for Water Supplies" I would capitalize it as it's the title in use at the time. Either way I think the lead and the body should have consistent usage.- The "minister for water" in the lead was a mistake, I meant minister for water. It remains uncapitalised though, due to MOS:JOBTITLES, particularly the part that says "When writing "minister of foreign affairs" or "minister of national defence", the portfolio should be lower-cased as it is not a proper noun on its own (i.e. write minister of foreign affairs or, as a proper noun, Minister of Foreign Affairs; do not write minister of Foreign Affairs".
Did Tonkin's 1955 assumption of the role of deputy premier mean he lost his portfolios, or was it just an additional responsibility? And had he been the deputy during the earlier period when it was an unofficial role?- He kept his portfolios after becoming deputy premier. He was deputy leader of the Labor Party before that, which means he was unofficially the deputy premier, which is why he was acting premier a few times. I'll see if I can find some sources that show this.
- Update: I've changed this section a bit with this diff to show that he was in the position unofficially since 1953.
Why was Tonkin acting premier in July 1953?- Turns out Hawke was attending the Coronation of Elizabeth II over a three-month trip. I wouldn't otherwise write the reason in the article, but since Tonkin's time as acting premier was so long, I decided to add it.
Do the sources give any more detail about the "Golden West" name for the bridge? Was Tonkin really choosing to name the bridge after the drink or was it just that "Golden West" was a term in use for the area and the drink was just a product that took advantage of it?- It seems the name was chosen because of Gold mining in Western Australia and "golden grain". It was then criticised for being unoriginal and too similar to the soft drink name, regardless of the soft drink company inventing the name or not. Perhaps an unfair criticism, but that's what occurred according to the sources.
"the Coalition's alleged secrecy within government" -- this is opaque to someone like me who knows nothing about WA politics. Can it be unpacked a little?- All I've found mentioning that is the Sydney Morning Herald source, which doesn't say very much. All it says is "John Tonkin has been a consistent critic, in and out of State Parliament, of Liberal-Country Party coalition's tendency to secrecy in Government."
- How about "Tonkin also persistently criticised the Coalition government for being too secretive", which avoids saying who alleged it? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:11, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- Done. Steelkamp (talk) 01:12, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- How about "Tonkin also persistently criticised the Coalition government for being too secretive", which avoids saying who alleged it? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:11, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- All I've found mentioning that is the Sydney Morning Herald source, which doesn't say very much. All it says is "John Tonkin has been a consistent critic, in and out of State Parliament, of Liberal-Country Party coalition's tendency to secrecy in Government."
"At age 69 years, he is the oldest premier at the time of swearing to date": suggest "As of 2021, Tonkin, who was 69 when he was sworn in, is the oldest person to have become premier of Western Australia". Or is he the oldest for any of the Australian states and territories?- Done. He is only the oldest in Western Australia.
"Tonkin wanted to make it easier for Hanwright to develop McCamey's Monster": given that this name is somewhat hidden in the linked article, and the name doesn't make clear that this is a mine, suggest "to develop McCamey's Monster, an iron ore mine [or deposit, or discovery, if it was not yet a mine at this point] in the Pilbara region of the state".- Done.
"has been compared to the later case "Mineralogy v Western Australia": in what way?- I've expanded upon this.
"free return airfares for people working north of the 26th parallel". What was special about that latitude? And presumably this only applied to public servants? And does this mean that if the government required you to fly somewhere south of that latitude you had to pay for your own travel?- The source does not expand upon this. This just applies to public servants, as does the rest of the things mentioned in that sentence. I couldn't find any information online about this, but I did find the currently active Pensioner annual free trip scheme, which is for pensioners living north of the 26th parallel, giving them one return journey by air or coach per year to Perth or elsewhere in the South West Land Division. I would presume the free airfares that Tonkin implemented was similar to that, and would be used to make it more attractive to work north of the 26th parallel, where it's isolated and hard to attract people to work there. As for why they chose the 26th parallel, I would guess its just an arbitrary limit which was easy to legislate, rather than using local government boundaries which would be liable to change.
"block supply" -- you link this, but it's a term I'm not familiar with. If it's the standard term in Australia that's fine, but it would be good if it could be rephrased as something more definitional. Maybe something like "to refuse to pass funding legislation" or "budgetary approvals"?- Changed to "block spending bills", although "block supply" is still a common phrase used in Australian politics and is used on 1975 Australian constitutional crisis.
The paragraph about the Balcatta by-election has no dates till we get to the September/October comment at the end. Maybe give the date for the YLO's motion of no confidence? And for the conversation between Bryce and Tonkin? And does "By that point" mean "at the time Tonkin suggested he should reveal the unpopular budget" or "September/October 1973"?- I've added a date for the by-election when its first announced in the previous paragraph. The source does say that the YLO's motion was "a few days after Burke's election", but I'm hesitant to include that, as I don't want to overdate everything as I think that doesn't make for the best writing. All that matters is that the threats from within his own party came soon after the by-election.
"This was opposed when the owners applied in December 2003 to have the house demolished". What was opposed? The decision not to add the house to the register? If so, who by? When East Fremantle rejected the application from the owners did they say it was because it's should have been added to the register?- I've reworded this section by changing it to "Stephens' decision became controversial..." I think the following sentences explain the main groups opposing the decision: the Town of East Fremantle, local heritage activists, and the National Trust of Western Australia.
That's everything from a read-through. Nothing major; just a list of nitpicks. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:42, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Cheers Mike Christie, I've responded to all your comments. Steelkamp (talk) 07:03, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- A couple of follow-up comments above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:12, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
Support. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:06, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Airship
[edit]As always, these are suggestions, not demands; feel free to refuse with justification. I have done some minor copyediting.
- "Tonkin was first a minister from 1943 to 1947." slightly awkward to my eyes, perhaps "first served as minister"?
- ", among other things." bit of an awkward trailing-off, perhaps just cut?
- "the economic crisis was caused by a "shortage of purchasing power" and that the government should "take over the control and issue of all money" from the banking system" as the Great Depression has not previously been referred to, this comes slightly out of nowhere and is a bit long-winded to boot. Would suggest trimming to "that the government could help the ongoing economic crisis by "tak[ing] over the control and issue of all money" from the banking system" or similar.
- I think the 43–71 period would flow better if the sections became subsections of one level-2 heading
- "On 12 June 1971, Tonkin married Winifred Joan West, a divorcee, at Wesley Church." do we know anything about her—life dates at least would be useful.
- "The financial state of the Government of Western Australia was poor throughout Tonkin's premiership. Tonkin managed to secure A$5.6 million (equivalent to A$68.71 million in 2022) in federal funding at the premiers' conference in April 1971 which went some way towards getting the deficit to manageable levels." do we know precise numbers for the deficit/manageable levels?
- "with Tonkin going on a tour of Hanwright's mines" it's not immediately clear that Hanwright was the company of Hancock and Wright.
- Also, the dispute seems to be with the company, rather then the two men specifically, so maybe adjust the section heading?
- "The Legislative Council blocked legislation that provided private sector employees with four weeks of paid annual leave, ten days of paid sick leave per year, and long service leave after ten years" any idea why it was these specifically?
- "Tonkin had for a long time had a rivalry" excessive "had"s
- "Graham had long-held ambitions to take over as leader from Tonkin. According to Mal Bryce, Tonkin was determined to stay as leader at least until Graham retired." might be worth combining these sentences.
- "the Legislative Council declined to go along with Court's plan" any idea why? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:40, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
Source review
[edit]- 6 "Parliament of Western Australia. " is the publisher, not the title, so it shouldn't be in italics. #14 seems to have the same problem. The description of The Mirror (Western Australia) makes me wonder if it's actually a "high-quality reliable source". #114, #126 and #128 should say whose media statements these are. What makes streetsofeastfreo.com a reliable source? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:34, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hi Jo-Jo, a first timer's source to text integrity spot check and a plagiarism check are going to be needed for this. Are they something you could handle? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:27, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Changed Parliament of Western Australia to publisher.
- I've replaced The Mirror citation with a citation to The West Australian.
- I've changed the media statements to use cite press release and added authors.
- The homepage of streetsofeastfreo.com says that it is a project by the Museum of Perth in partnership with the Town of East Fremantle.
- Steelkamp (talk) 11:09, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hi Jo-Jo, a first timer's source to text integrity spot check and a plagiarism check are going to be needed for this. Are they something you could handle? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:27, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
Spotcheck on this version:
- 2 OK for the infobox, not sure what it supports in the other cite.
- That source supports the quotes from Francis Burt.
- 20 Source's broken.
- It's not broken for me. Maybe just a momentary issue, or maybe it is geoblocked.
- Timeout problems. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 17:19, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- It's not broken for me. Maybe just a momentary issue, or maybe it is geoblocked.
- 24 OK
- 25 OK
- 30 OK
- 33 Not on the page given.
- I was using the PDF page numbers, but I now see that there are also page numbers written in the top right corner of each page which are offset by three. I have updated each mention of that source to the written page numbers.
- Can't check as that web PDF takes way too long to load. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 17:19, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- I was using the PDF page numbers, but I now see that there are also page numbers written in the top right corner of each page which are offset by three. I have updated each mention of that source to the written page numbers.
- 35 OK
- 47 Where does either source say "July"?
- FN 46 (published 4 May) supports Hawke leaving in May and FN 47 (published 29 July) supports Hawke arriving back in July and Tonkin being acting premier during Hawke's absence.
- 48 Doesn't say "freeway"
- I've replaced it with "controlled-access highway", which is the term the source uses.
- 59 OK but I think the other source is being paraphrased too closely.
- Reworded.
- 60 Same as with #59, OK but the other source is being paraphrased too closely.
- Reworded.
- 63 Hmm, the other source says that Tonkin then agreed with Court against Wright, should that be said in the article?
- That is covered later in the article in the "Dispute with Lang Hancock and Peter Wright" section.
- 64 Where does it say by election?
- I've added a difference page to support this. I hope that the first paragraph on page 50 is ok, although it is talking about the Ascot by-election specifically, it applies in general.
- 85 OK
- 92 Can't find this.
- Oliver 2003 says "Another outcome of Graham’s retirement was that Alexander Donald ‘Don’ Taylor, the Member for Cockburn, who held the portfolio of Labour Relations, was elected to the Deputy Premier’s position". Kennedy 2014 says "The result sent a shiver through the Labor caucus, which by then had elected Don Taylor as Tonkin's new deputy."
- 101 Can't see the Kennedy page.
- You should be able to see it, if you can access the other pages of that book.
- 106 Can't access this source.
- I can send a photo if you email me.
- 107 OK
- 116 Can't access this source.
- I can send a photo if you email me.
- 120 OK
Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:56, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): – zmbro (talk) (cont) 14:45, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
This article is about... Bruce Springsteen's third studio album Born to Run. A make a break record for the singer-songwriter, it's easy to say he made it (very well). Now regarded by many as his magnum opus (although this editor would argue Darkness on the Edge of Town or Nebraska), I rewrote this article from the ground up and after its GAN it went through a helpful peer review and I believe it's now ready for the star. I'm looking forward to any comments or concerns. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 14:45, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
Nick-D
[edit]It's great to see an article on a major popular music album here instead of the more common FACs on modern pop. I'd like to offer the following comments:
- " was designed to break him into the mainstream" - bit clunky
- How about "Recorded in New York, it was Springsteen's effort to break into the mainstream..."? – zmbro (talk) (cont) 23:49, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Sounds good Nick-D (talk) 10:36, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- "the band and producers spent six months alone working on the title track" - seems like trivia for the lead
- I would say otherwise because it displays how "prolonged and grueling" the sessions were; plus, most songs did not take that long to record, especially at the time. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 23:49, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- "Springsteen's lack of direction and confidence" - this appears out of the blue after text that stresses that Springsteen was ambitious about the record
- Removed confidence
- "Springsteen was sent multiple mixes as he was on the road and rejected all of them, approving the final one in early August." - this needs to be tweaked: if he rejected all of them how could he have approved one?
- How about "...and rejected all but one, which he approved in early August."? – zmbro (talk) (cont) 23:49, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- "such as a road can take you anywhere" - I suspect that a 'that' is missing here
- Fixed
- ""Born to Run" uses an automobile to escape from a depressing life" - this is unclear
- ""Born to Run" uses an automobile as a means to escape from a depressing life." That better? – zmbro (talk) (cont) 23:49, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- "The success of Born to Run revitalized Springsteen's career" - this is unclear given the article previously stresses that the album led Springsteen to move from relative obscurity into stardom.
- Would 'revitalized' not work here? He had a career before this (albeit struggling financially), but this record turned that around and brought him success. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 23:49, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- "revitalise" usually means to renew something or restore vigour, which isn't the case for Springsteen. Nick-D (talk) 10:36, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- Nick-D The source uses "saved"; although that technically is true (Columbia would have dropped him if it had failed), I'm not sure if that's appropriate for WP. What about "rejuvenate"? – zmbro (talk) (cont) 17:43, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- Same issue with that. 'Saved' seems appropriate if it's what the sources used (though it's hard to believe that Springsteen wouldn't have had a decent chance of making a successful music career given his skills). Nick-D (talk) 10:30, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- Changed to 'saved' – zmbro (talk) (cont) 16:01, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- "revitalise" usually means to renew something or restore vigour, which isn't the case for Springsteen. Nick-D (talk) 10:36, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- Had the album been performed live in total before 2008?
- Not that I could find. Setlists for the Born to Run tours are hard to find. I know he has performed all the songs from Born to Run quite often since 1975, but the album itself in order front to back I could not find. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 23:49, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- The article cites a wide range of very high quality sources, but not any academic articles. Nick-D (talk) 08:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Does this one not count? – zmbro (talk) (cont) 23:49, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Are there no other journal articles worth citing? Nick-D (talk) 10:36, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- Nick-D Sorry I'm just now getting to this. I found this one and this one, although both are in German and don't appear accessible (at least for me). I recall in my search during initial expansion, the English one already in the article is the only one I could find, other articles were about Born in the USA. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 15:14, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Nick-D Pinging in case you didn't see. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 18:51, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nick-D Sorry I'm just now getting to this. I found this one and this one, although both are in German and don't appear accessible (at least for me). I recall in my search during initial expansion, the English one already in the article is the only one I could find, other articles were about Born in the USA. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 15:14, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Are there no other journal articles worth citing? Nick-D (talk) 10:36, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- Nick-D Thanks for the comments! Replies above. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 23:49, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
Support Apologises for my slow response here - I was travelling and the pings fell through the cracks. Those changes look good, and I think that the FA criteria are met. Nick-D (talk) 11:25, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments by ChrisTheDude
[edit]- "By 1974 his popularity was limited to United States East Coast" => "By 1974 his popularity was limited to the East Coast of the United States"
- "Low morale plagued Springsteen's team, including both his manager, Mike Appel, and the E Street Band" => "Low morale plagued Springsteen's team, including both his manager, Mike Appel, and his backing band the E Street Band"
- Changed to "backing group" so we're not saying band twice
- "Bittan had a background in symphony orchestra" => "Bittan had a background in symphony orchestras"
- "Bittan mostly replaced Federici on the album, whose sole contribution" => "On the album Bittan mostly replaced Federici, whose sole contribution"
- "The stunt generated interest the track" => "The stunt generated interest in the track"
- "a long saxophone solo from Clemons, which he spent 16 hours replaying to Springsteen's satisfaction;[71] he dictated almost every note played" - it's ambiguous who the "he" is in the last part
- Clarified it's the latter
- "The seven known outtakes from the album included" - using "included" doesn't really work when you then list all seven. Change "included" to "are"
- "The song contains autobiographical elements to Springsteen's youth" - don't think the grammar works here. Maybe "The song contains autobiographical elements related to Springsteen's youth".......?
- "Following his demise, death and destruction continues across the streets" => "Following his demise, death and destruction continue across the streets"
- "Springsteen's guitar strap dons an Elvis Presley pin" - I don't think an inanimate object can really "don" something. Maybe "On Springsteen's guitar strap is an Elvis Presley pin"
- Changed to "An Elvis Presley pin appears on Springsteen's guitar strap,"
- "The cover was included in a Rolling Stone readers poll" => "The cover was included in a Rolling Stone readers' poll"
- "receiving both critical praiseand from former Columbia Records president Clive Davis" => "receiving praise both from critics and from former Columbia Records president Clive Davis"
- "and moved different studios" - should this be "and moved to different studios"? "and moved between different studios"? I doubt he physically moved the studios........
- Clarified 'between'
- That's what I got! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:27, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- ChrisTheDude All fixed, with some comments above :-) – zmbro (talk) (cont) 16:01, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:40, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
Ceoil
[edit]Placeholder. Was part of the PR and intend to continue the review, but it may be a few days. Ceoil (talk) 21:45, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ceoil Friendly reminder :-) – zmbro (talk) (cont) 18:50, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- For the co-ords re this timing out; I'm a likely support but haven't had the chance to re-look since the PR. Ceoil (talk) 20:50, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I said my piece at the PR, where my main concerns were addressed. Support especially given all the work from other reviewers below. Ceoil (talk) 05:22, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
Moise
[edit]Placeholder for me too. I'll try to start my review soon. Moisejp (talk) 06:14, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
I should be able to get started this weekend. Moisejp (talk) 04:29, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments (as usual, I'll add them as I go along, in some cases one at a time):
- "The band went back and forth between studio recording and live performances." This could be clearer. What exactly does "go back and forth between" mean here? Does live performances that aren't in the studio mean concert performances? Maybe it means some kind of jamming (because it says Springsteen used these to develop new material)? Moisejp (talk) 06:51, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes concert performances. To me it's clear but I can see how you got confused. Clarified.
- "Bittan had a background in symphony orchestras and had previously known of Springsteen's music, but Weinberg had not and had experience with various rock bands and Broadway productions." A bit awkward overall. "Weinberg had not" presumably is only referring to "had previously known of Springsteen's music" but it's not totally clear. In a way "experience with various rock bands and Broadway productions" emphasizes the rock/Broadway vs. symphony, which may suggest "Weinberg had not" is also about the symphony, which sounds like an unusual thing to say. Moisejp (talk) 07:03, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Separated them into different sentences.
- Not sure what to suggest here, but it's also a bit awkward to say that Bittan "replaced" Sancious and then right after that he "mostly replaced" Federici. Moisejp (talk) 07:07, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Iagree. I'm not sure how to reword either... – zmbro (talk) (cont) 21:04, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- "The songs themselves feature introductions that set the tone and scene for each." Maybe specify the kind of introduction this is referring to, I imagined you meant extended musical bits before the singing starts. Moisejp (talk) 14:17, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- Added "musical"
Thanks, Zmbro. I've finished my first read-through. I'll be busy the next few days but hope to get back to this review later in the week. Thanks! Moisejp (talk) 04:26, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
Support on prose and comprehensiveness. I did another read-through and am now satisfied the article meets the requirements. Moisejp (talk) 22:41, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments by Wehwalt
[edit]- No, I'd say this is the realest Springsteen album. Before he really went commercial and then political ....
My comments:
- "The album cover, featuring Springsteen leaning on E Street Band saxophonist Clarence Clemons's shoulder, is considered iconic and has been recreated by various musicians and in other media." I'm not sure recreated is the word. Maybe (not sure) imitated?
- Changed to imitated
- "By 1974 his popularity was limited to East Coast of the United States," Should be a "the" in there.
- Fixed
- "the then upcoming artist Billy Joel" this should probably have a hyphen somewhere in it.
- Fixed
- "the label conceded" Maybe "the label agreed"
- Done
- "From the Churches to the Jails, The Hungry and the Hunted, War and Roses, and American Summer.[23]" is it worth mentioning that some of these are lyrics in the completed album?
- Maybe but the source doesn't mention that so I think that would qualify as OR. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 20:50, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- "an early version" a demo?
- Re-reading the source cited it was actually the final track (which would make sense if it was in November) so I shortened it to just "Appel sent "Born to Run"..." – zmbro (talk) (cont) 20:50, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- "By January 1975, the band had been working for over a year with only one finished track." Maybe " ... the one finished track"?
- Removed the 'only'
- "and the highway as a means of escape and coming-of-age journey ... "Jungleland" I'm not quite clear on who uses the highway as a means of escape/comes of age in "Jungleland".
- The source has the song listed in quotes; I assume the authors grouped it there since the song takes place on a street and tells the story of the Magic Rat and his unnamed girlfriend. Think I should just separate it in a new description? – zmbro (talk) (cont) 20:50, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- "the songs on Born to Run are not specifically tied to New Jersey and New York" none of them? Really?
- I mean yeah some obviously are. I added "most of" does that work? – zmbro (talk) (cont) 20:50, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- "According to Masur, the Rat was gunned down by his "own dream"." Why does that need Masur? That's what the lyrics say, "the Rat's own dream guns him down". And the quote makes it sound like it's Masur's words, not Springsteen's.
- The quote after "symbolizing" is Masur's. Reworded to clarify.
- "Following his demise, death and destruction continue across the streets until they are left in complete devastation" "they wind up wounded, they're not even dead"?
- Removed 'death and'
- "an article by Henry Edwards in The New York Times that slandered both himself and Born to Run." Slandered is a pretty strong word. Is it justified here?
- I believe so. I recall reading through Edwards' article and thinking it was pretty harsh. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 20:50, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- The Greil Marcus paraphrase would probably be better as a direct quotation. If you're going to paraphrase at that level of detail, you are probably better off with a quote.
Not done Will come back to this one. I'm sure Ceoil won't approve of the full quote so I wanna get his opinion (I also can't access the source for whatever reason atm). – zmbro (talk) (cont) 20:50, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- Was the album nominated for any awards at the time of its original release?
- Not that I found/know of (no sources mention anything like that that I can recall either) – zmbro (talk) (cont) 20:50, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- Is the action of the state assembly to try to make the song Born to Run the state's unofficial rock theme worthy of mention?
- It certainly would be on Born to Run (Bruce Springsteen song), but here it might stretch to WP:OFFTOPIC
- That's it.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:30, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Wehwalt Thanks for commenting. Replies/Questions above. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 20:50, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support Wehwalt (talk) 21:28, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- Wehwalt Thanks for commenting. Replies/Questions above. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 20:50, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
Ippantekina
[edit]My review will be focusing on prose exclusively. Ippantekina (talk) 05:22, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Ippantekina are you still planning on offering a review? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 14:04, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes I do, please bare with me as I'm figuring how to contribute to this review taking into account the opinions of other reviewers here--but it's a positive thus far. Ippantekina (talk) 03:21, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
I like the way this article is organized and written, very interesting. My concerns are mostly regarding the tone of language here and there:
- "... via lyrical imagery steeped in the romantic images of highways and travel" would something like "... via romantic lyrical imagery of highways and travel" work?
- Done
- Sometimes the language seems editorializing somewhat ("dense, crisp, and energetic yet difficult-to-achieve", "grueling sessions", "the cinematic storytelling and music"). I'd try to frame them as opinions rather than facts as the current language implies.
- Removed these bits from lead section; trying to attribute these words here is just not worth it (and would make it much longer as it is) – zmbro (talk) (cont) 16:12, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm curious; does this part include false titles? "saxophonist Clarence Clemons, organist Danny Federici, pianist David Sancious, bassist Garry Tallent, and drummer Ernest Carter;"
- I didn't like how it read, but in the essence of consistency I changed it to "Clarence Clemons (saxophone), Danny Federici (organ), David Sancious (piano), Garry Tallent (bass), and Ernest Carter (drums)"? Does that work better? – zmbro (talk) (cont) 16:12, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- "a favorite of artists such as Aerosmith and John Lennon" "who had recently engineered Lennon's Rock 'n' Roll album (1975)" I'm unsure how these help with the prose
- Cut
- nitpick-y "The songs
themselvesfeature musical introductions that set the tone and scene for each"
- Cut
- Attribution needed for quotes e.g. The characters are "grounded",[102] regular people[103] "trapped by the space they inhabit" Utilizing a "four corners approach" to album sequencing
- Changed wording from direct quotes (lost and trapped in their lives); attributed four corners quote – zmbro (talk) (cont) 16:12, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- nitpick-y "Springsteen
hassaid that" (I was told somewhere that it's best to avoid the present-perfect tense, though I'm open to discuss)
- I'd strongly disagree that the present perfect shouldn't be used in articles, and in fact I come across lots of articles where I feel it should be used more. The simple past and present perfect serve different functions. The simple past is used when the time in the past that it happened (or was said) is explicitly indicated, or very clear from the context. Or if the person who said it is no longer alive. But the present perfect is open-ended and if it was said somewhat later than what it was being said about (not shortly after), I almost always use the present perfect. Using both tenses in tandem help separate the two timelines of what was initially happening, and what people have said about it later (if you use only the simple past, these two timelines get unnaturally compressed into one). That's a simplified explanation of how their usage is different, and there are nuances when (if it was me) I might have a special reason not to follow such guidelines, but in general that's how I write. Moisejp (talk) 22:53, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Not changed per above – zmbro (talk) (cont) 16:12, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Pay extra attention to quotation (WP:LQ) e.g. Masur argues the song "lays out hopes and dreams, and the remainder of the album is an investigation into whether, and in what ways, they can be realized."
- Fixed
- I'm not sure if other reviewers have pointed this out, but I'd like to see a short sample of a song that can demonstrate the musical styles/instruments of this album.
— Ippantekina (talk) 09:05, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ippantekina Replies above. I can work on getting a sample of the title track here in a bit. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 16:52, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Image and source review
[edit]Images
- I worry about the provenance of File:SpringsteenMadison.jpg - it doesn't look like an user-made photo and TinEye claims that it existed once at this page. In my experience, you cannot satisfy WP:NFCC#8 when your image only illustrates a subtopic of the article, so File:Born2Add.jpg probably must go. Otherwise it seems fine, but not all files have ALT text.
- So remove File:SpringsteenMadison.jpg or keep it? I removed the Sesame Street one (it was here before I rewrote the article so I kept it). – zmbro (talk) (cont) 16:47, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Sources
- I wonder what kind of source "Wings for Wheels: The Making of Born to Run" is.
- It is a documentary on the making of the album. It was cited directly in Margotin and Guesdon's book so when they cited it I cited that in its place (WP:PRIMARY instead of WP:SECONDARY). If you think I should ditch it and cite M&G I will (that's what I was told to do at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Darkness on the Edge of Town/archive1. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 16:47, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- What makes AllMusic a reliable source - I remember that it weren't one.
- AllMusic is considered reliable over at WP:RSMUSIC: Biography/staff reviews are reliable, but do not use sidebar, as it may be user-generated or otherwise separately sourced from the prose. Their reviews/star ratings are typically included on every album article on this site. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 16:47, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Are Vigilla, Hubert and Blum, Jordan reputable reviewers?
- I have used Treble on other articles and their about us page lists has an editor-in-chief and various contributors, which is typically the guidelines needed to be considered reliable. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 16:47, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Consequence of Sound is also listed at WP:RSMUSIC so that would constitute reliabilty. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 16:47, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Why are some Rolling Stone articles online and others not?
- They have not digitized all of their articles, and if they have and are no longer active links, I haven't found a way to search for them on the Wayback Machine. – zmbro (talk) (cont) 16:47, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think officialcharts.com, live.brucespringsteen.net and brucespringsteen.net can be replaced with the titles of the websites.
- Fixed
- Is sputnikmusic.com a reliable source?
- Per WP:RSMUSIC, yes.
- Don't think that Google Books links need to be archived.
- Fixed; the IA management console always does that.
Don't know much of the topic or sources but these I inspected seemed to be from reputable authors and publishers. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:57, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Jo-Jo Eumerus Replies above. Thanks! – zmbro (talk) (cont) 16:47, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:59, 2 July 2024 (UTC) and Gah4 (talk)
This article is about Lise Meitner, the Austrian physicist who was the co-discover of the element protactinium and nuclear fission. She spent much of her scientific career in Berlin, Germany, where she was a physics professor and a department head at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute. She fled to Sweden after Austria was absorbed into Germany in 1938. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:59, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
Image review
[edit]- Suggest adding alt text
- File:Lise_Meitner_(1878-1968),_lecturing_at_Catholic_University,_Washington,_D.C.,_1946.jpg: is a more specific tag available? Ditto File:Lise_Meitner_standing_at_meeting_with_Arthur_H._Compton_and_Katherine_Cornell.jpg
- The originals are at [24] and [25]. Donated to the Smithsonian by Otto Hahn's biographer. No known copyright restrictions. We could use Template:PD-USGov-SI? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not sure we can - those links indicate usage restrictions. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:46, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe this one File:Lise Meitner (1878–1968) 1953 OeNB USIS 2955727.jpg can be used as a lead photo? It's of better resolution, and the copyright looks ok. Artem.G (talk) 20:53, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- just noticed that it's Hawkeye who uploaded high res version :) Artem.G (talk) 20:55, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe this one File:Lise Meitner (1878–1968) 1953 OeNB USIS 2955727.jpg can be used as a lead photo? It's of better resolution, and the copyright looks ok. Artem.G (talk) 20:53, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not sure we can - those links indicate usage restrictions. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:46, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- The originals are at [24] and [25]. Donated to the Smithsonian by Otto Hahn's biographer. No known copyright restrictions. We could use Template:PD-USGov-SI? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- File:Lise_Meitner12.jpg: source link is dead; when and where was this first published and what is the author's date of death? Ditto File:Otto_Hahn_und_Lise_Meitner.jpg
- Author is unknown. Image was created in 1906. A copy is in Churchill College, England. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, so retagging needed. What is the first known publication? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:46, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- I do not know when they were first published, but they are in Hahn's 1962 biography. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:30, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, so retagging needed. What is the first known publication? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:46, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- Author is unknown. Image was created in 1906. A copy is in Churchill College, England. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- Is any info provided there on previous publication? If no, the current tag is lacking evidence. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:34, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- File:Berliner_Physiker_u_Chemiker_1920.jpg needs a US tag and author date of death
- Added URAA tag. Author unknown. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- When and where was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:46, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- I do not know first publication but it is in Hahn's 1962 book. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:33, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- When and where was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:46, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- Added URAA tag. Author unknown. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- File:Hahn_and_Meitner_in_1912.jpg: when and where was this first published?
- In a commemorative brochure for the opening of the KWI in 1912. A copy was in Otto Hahn's papers, and is now in the Smithsonian. The Max Planck also has a copy. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- File:Chemist_Lise_Meitner_with_students.jpg: the source seems to indicate this is not a NRC work?
- Source says "Courtesy of Bryn Mawr College" via the NRC. Has a CC 2.0 licence. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
Nikkimaria (talk) 01:38, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
@Nikkimaria: I have switched the lead image to a new one I found in the Library of Congress. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:01, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Adding: The liquid drop model image is causing layout issues on my screen. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:34, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Hi Nikkimaria, is there still work to do here? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:55, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Looks like queries on File:Lise_Meitner12.jpg, File:Otto_Hahn_und_Lise_Meitner.jpg, File:Berliner_Physiker_u_Chemiker_1920.jpg, File:Lise_Meitner_standing_at_meeting_with_Arthur_H._Compton_and_Katherine_Cornell.jpg are still pending, as well as the layout issue. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:42, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Wolverine
[edit]I'll drop some comments pretty soon. Wolverine XI (talk to me) 14:48, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- On 13-14 July 1938, she fled to Holland with the help of Dirk En dash
- her sisters Gisela and Lola converted to Catholic Christianity that same year Replace Catholic Christianity with Catholicism
- Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- She also adopted a shortened name "Lise". "A" should be "the", since we are specific here.
- Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- and first studied colours of an oil slick, thin films, and reflected light. "The" before colours
- In July 1901, the girls sat an external examination at the Akademisches Gymnasium. Grammar
- Looks fine to me. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- She was particularly inspired by Boltzmann, and was said to often speak with contagious enthusiasm of his lectures. I'm not sure about "contagious" here, and it should be "about" rather than "of"
- Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- who was on the record as opposing the admission of women to universities in general, "The" is not needed
- Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- Meitner and Hahn in their laboratory, in 1913. When a colleague she did not recognise said that they had met before, Meitner replied: "You probably mistake me for Professor Hahn. Image caption is confusing
- Looks fine to me. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- Meitner was more concerned with understanding their radiations. Should radiations be singular?
- Might as well. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- In 1912, Hahn and Meitner moved to the newly founded Kaiser Wilhelm Institute (KWI) for Chemistry. Why is chemistry capitalized?
- It is the proper name of the institute. There were several of them, including a KWI for Physical Chemistry. See Kaiser Wilhelm Society for details. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- of which he gave ten per cent to Meitner. Is this %?
- MOS:PERCENT: "The body of non-scientific/non-technical articles may use either the % symbol or the word(s) percent (American English) or per cent (British English)"
- In 1945 the Nobel Committee for Chemistry in Sweden that selected the Nobel Prize in Chemistry decided to award that prize solely to Hahn: Colon should be a full stop
- Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- Hahn only found out from a newspaper while interned in Farm Hall Cambridgeshire England. Should be "at"
- I think "in" is correct. He was incarcerated there. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
Support -- My comments are so minor that you already have my support. Well done! When all is done, I'd appreciate a review of the narwhal FAC. Thanks, Wolverine XI (talk to me) 15:27, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
Prose review by Generalissima
[edit]- You bold Elise Meitner in the Early years section, but you already mention this name in the lede - it should probably just be bolded there.
- Yes. Emboldened as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm slightly unclear what "advanced education" means in this context. Merely attending college, or becoming academics in their own right?
- Tertiary education. Suggestions welcome. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Women were not allowed to attend public institutions of higher education in Vienna until 1897, and she completed her final year of school in 1892 I think this would make more sense with the clauses reversed, and moved after the following sentence; this way, it'd flow naturally into the "only career available" part.
- Good idea. Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Some context on what either her masters or doctoral theses were about could be interesting.
- The title translations are mine. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- "Circumspect" seems like a bit of an obscure word here. Also "egalitarian" is a bit confusing - I know we're talking about how Hahn drank a lot of Respect Women Juice, but it's phrased confusingly in this portion.
- Germany was very formal society at the time. Oppenheimer, for example, once made the mistake of addressing Arnold Sommerfeld as "Professor" instead of "Geheimrat". Removed. I need to strike the right note here. For a man of his time, Hahn was progressive in his attitudes towards women. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Later that year, perhaps fearing that Meitner was in financial difficulties and might return to Vienna, since her father had died in 1910, Planck appointed her his assistant at the Institute for Theoretical Physics in the Friedrich Wilhelm University I think it might be best to remove the "since her father had died" clause. Maybe split it up; "Meitner may have entered financial difficulties after the death of her father in 1910. Possibly due to this, Planck appointed her..."
- Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- You reference prices in marks a lot, but a modern reader has no context. Is there a way we can have conversions? There's likely a template for the mark. (Tho these might be best as efns after each quote rather than as in-line text)
- I don't know how to do this. I will ask and see in anyone else does. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Betty Logan showed me how, so added currency conversions to euros. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:22, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't know how to do this. I will ask and see in anyone else does. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- "fortuitous" is somewhat vague, since it can either mean "by chance" or "fortunately". Just using fortunately would be a lot clearer in this context.
- Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Might be good to wikilink Radium.
- This isn't really a prose thing, but I notice a paucity of images in the middle sections. The diagram of the Auger effect might be good at the beginning of the Beta Radiation section. More importantly, there's gotta be something that fits for the Nazi Germany, Transmutation, and Nobel Prize for nuclear fission sections, right?
- Added Auger effect diagram. Suggestions welcome. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I would love to be able to use this image Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Added Auger effect diagram. Suggestions welcome. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- The exhibition table being left-aligned creates a weird break in the text in combination with the massive Frisch quote. Might be better to right-align it.
- Moreover; the Frisch quote is nice, but it is massive. Could there be a way to pare it down a bit more with a (...) or two?
- Pared it down. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Moreover; the Frisch quote is nice, but it is massive. Could there be a way to pare it down a bit more with a (...) or two?
- The bust of Meitner image is a bit low-res and hard to make out. What about "file:Lise Meitner Denkmal vor dem Lise-Meitner-Wohnheim in Kaiserslautern2.jpg"? Bit more photogenic.
- Switched images as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
That's all for now. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 03:23, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Hawkeye7: These changes look great! Happy to Support. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 03:45, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
Comments by TompaDompa
[edit]This looks interesting. I'll try to find the time to review it in the next few days. As an initial comment, "what was now Nazi Germany" in the WP:LEAD would make more sense to me as "what was by then Nazi Germany". TompaDompa (talk) 03:35, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- General comments
- There are quite a few places where I think the article would benefit from being more clear and explicit about the geography and geopolitics. Those conditions, especially during the pre-World War I period, will only become more unfamiliar to readers as time goes on, so I think it important to future-proof the article, as it were. I've made a number of specific comments about this below.
- Lead
"the development of atomic bombs during World War II, and subsequently other nuclear weapons" – atomic bomb is a redirect to nuclear weapon, so this is in effect the same link twice in close succession.- Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Early years
"Meitner was born Elise Meitner [...]" – any particular reason to not just write "Elise Meitner was born [...]"? That's the usual approach."Her father was a confirmed freethinker" – "confirmed"?- Deleted "confirmed". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Education
"Meitner's earliest research began at age eight, when she kept a notebook of her records underneath her pillow." – I can't say I quite understand what this is saying.- That she was interested in science at an early age. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, but what is meant by "a notebook of her records" (and how it relates to research) is not clear to me. TompaDompa (talk) 20:04, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Re-worded to make the point clearer. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:28, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, but what is meant by "a notebook of her records" (and how it relates to research) is not clear to me. TompaDompa (talk) 20:04, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- That she was interested in science at an early age. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"She completed her final year of school in 1892 [...] In 1899, Meitner began taking private lessons with two other young women, cramming the missing eight years of secondary education into just two." – eight missing years?- Yes, it was not that much. Deleted "eight". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"an article on optics by Lord Rayleigh that detailed an experiment that produced results that Rayleigh had been unable to explain" – a bit choppy with three instances of "that" so close together, but this is really a nitpick.- Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Friedrich Wilhelm University
Max Planck and Beta particle are both linked twice in this section, and both isotope and isotopes (the latter a redirect to the former) appear.- Unlinked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"Meitner went to the Friedrich Wilhelm University" – here we should probably state where this was located geographically. She moved to a different country, after all.- Added "in Berlin". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"Planck invited her to his home, and allowed her to attend his lectures, which was an unusual gesture by Planck, who was on record as opposing the admission of women to universities in general, but he was willing to admit that there was the occasional exception; apparently he recognised Meitner as one of the exceptions." – this sentence does not "flow" particularly well and could probably be improved by copyediting (possibly by splitting the sentence).- Split sentence. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"She became friends with Planck's twin daughters Emma and Grete" – I might indicate something about their age here. Easiest would probably be to state the year they were born.- In 1889. Added this. Both died in childbirth, Grete in 1917 and Emma in 1919. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"(In fact, they were isotopes of known elements, but the concept of an isotope, along with the term, was only propounded by Frederick Soddy in 1913.)" – entire sentences in parentheses is rarely the best approach, and I don't think this is one of the exceptions.- Moved to a footnote Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- "propounded" is a conspicuously unusual word. Plainer language such as "put forth" would be better.
- I think "propounded" works better. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- "she noted his informal and approachable manner" – is "noted" the right/best word to use here?
- I think so. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"In Montreal, Hahn had become accustomed to collaboration with physicists, including at least one woman, Harriet Brooks." – this is really minor tinkering, but I think this would be better if the second comma were replaced with "stronger" stronger punctuation (I would suggest an em dash).- Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- I meant "In Montreal, Hahn had become accustomed to collaboration with physicists—including at least one woman, Harriet Brooks." TompaDompa (talk) 20:04, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:28, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- I meant "In Montreal, Hahn had become accustomed to collaboration with physicists—including at least one woman, Harriet Brooks." TompaDompa (talk) 20:04, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"Women were not yet admitted to universities in Prussia." – Germany (or the German Empire) has not yet been mentioned. Considering that, I would gloss this as "the German state of Prussia".- Prussia didn't become a state until 1918. At the time it was the Kingdom of Prussia. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, but whether the states of the German Empire were called Kingdoms, Duchies, or something else, the salient point is that they were constituent parts of the overarching German polity, which was what I was going for here. TompaDompa (talk) 20:04, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, my German gets in the way here. Made this point. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:28, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- It is now "the German state of Kingdom of Prussia", which should probably either be "[...] of Prussia" of "[...] of the Kingdom of Prussia". TompaDompa (talk) 18:48, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- Added missing adjective. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:03, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- It is now "the German state of Kingdom of Prussia", which should probably either be "[...] of Prussia" of "[...] of the Kingdom of Prussia". TompaDompa (talk) 18:48, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, my German gets in the way here. Made this point. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:28, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, but whether the states of the German Empire were called Kingdoms, Duchies, or something else, the salient point is that they were constituent parts of the overarching German polity, which was what I was going for here. TompaDompa (talk) 20:04, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- Prussia didn't become a state until 1918. At the time it was the Kingdom of Prussia. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"radioactive recoil, in which a daughter nucleus is forcefully ejected from its matrix as it recoils at the moment of decay" – this is rather technical. In order to make it more accessible, I would link daughter nucleus and provide either an appropriate link for "matrix" or explain it in some other way.- Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- "Meitner was particularly interested in beta radiation. By this time, they were known to be electrons." – I'm guessing "they" here is a result of the preceding sentence previously using "beta particles", but it doesn't work with "beta radiation", and using "radiation" rather than "particles" is the right call.
- Changed to "beta particles" Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Chemistry
"the newly founded Kaiser Wilhelm Institute (KWI) for Chemistry" – again, it would probably be a good idea to indicate the geographical location for this.- Added "in Berlin". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"Meitner received an attractive offer of an academic position in Prague" – I would try to find some way to note that Prague was then part of Austria-Hungary (the significance being that she would have left Germany for her home country if she had accepted the offer).- Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"Fischer arranged for her salary to be doubled to 3,000 marks" – is there any particular reason her previous salary did not get a mention prior to this point? The paragraph does note that she held "the same rank as Hahn (although her salary was still less)".- It was raised over time. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- I see. TompaDompa (talk) 20:04, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- It was raised over time. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- World War I and the discovery of protactinium
Actinium being element 89 is rather important context that is missing here.- "the search for the mother isotope of actinium. According to the radioactive displacement law of Fajans and Soddy, this had to be an isotope of the undiscovered element 91" – I'm confused. They knew about beta decay, and the article has already stated that Hahn and Meitner made money off of radium-228 ("mesothorium"), which beta decays to actinium (as do other isotopes of radium, for that matter). Why did they assume the mother isotope had to be an alpha emitter?
- Presumably they detected alpha radiation. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- "However, the isotope they had found was a beta emitter, and therefore could not be the mother isotope of actinium." – I understand why beta decay of element 91 cannot produce element 89, but I don't think this is clear to the average reader.
"In 1914 Hahn and Meitner developed a new technique for separating the tantalum group from pitchblende, which they hoped would speed the isolation of the new isotope." – this is jumping back in time a bit, so I would say that they had done so.- Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"not only Hahn but most of the students, laboratory assistants and technicians had been called up" – I gather this is "called up" in the sense of "summoned to serve in the armed forces" as opposed to "personally selected (for some particular purpose more generally)". Maybe I'm an outlier, but I come across this phrase more frequently in the latter sense than in the former, and so think this should be rephrased somewhat to eliminate ambiguity/lack of clarity.- As a military historian, I have never seen it used in that sense. Clarified. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- It is, from what I can gather, rather common in sports. TompaDompa (talk) 18:48, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- As a military historian, I have never seen it used in that sense. Clarified. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"they devised a series of indicator tests to eliminate other known alpha emitters. The only known ones with similar chemical behaviour were lead-210 (which decays to alpha emitter polonium-210) and thorium-230" – this doesn't quite work. I might suggest replacing the first "alpha emitters" with "sources of alpha [particles/radiation]". I would also add "via bismuth-210" to the parenthetical statement.- Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- "The connection to uranium remained a mystery, as neither of the known isotopes of uranium decayed into protactinium." – I don't think it's clear why a connection to uranium should be expected in the first place?
I might also note which those known isotopes of uranium were. "the mother isotope, uranium-235" – technically uranium-235 is the grandmother isotope of protactinium(-231), no?- Yes. Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"uranium-235, was discovered in 1929" – according to the linked article, it was discovered in 1935. Which is wrong?- The source says it was in 1929. The linked article has no sources, but I found Dempster's 1935 Nature article. Changed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Beta radiation
- "At a conference in 1937, Meitner shares the front row with (left to right) Niels Bohr, Werner Heisenberg, Wolfgang Pauli, Otto Stern and Rudolf Ladenburg; Hilde Levi is the only other woman in the room." – there are seven people in the front row, so one name is missing. Who is sitting closest to the camera? I would also add indicate Levi's position in the room in the caption.
- The image does not identify him. Tweaked caption. I would have thought Levi stood out, but she is at the back next to Mark Oliphant. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- The unidentified man is the one at the very end (if nothing else, our article on Rudolf Ladenburg uses a cropped version of this very image, showing the man sitting next to Meitner), right? In that case, the current "[...] Otto Stern, an unidentified man and Rudolf Ladenburg" should be ""[...] Otto Stern, Rudolf Ladenburg, and an unidentified man".Levi stands out okay in the full-size image, but not so much in miniature versions that one may see on this article under typical viewing conditions (screen size and resolution, and so on). I also think it says something that Meitner is in the front row while Levi is furthest back, and that the caption should note this. TompaDompa (talk) 18:48, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- I have seen some cases where Meitner is described as the only woman in the room. And [26], for example, deliberately crops the image so she is. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:32, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- I see you have identified the man as "J. C. G. Jacobsen". I'm guessing that is the physicist Jacob Christian Georg Jacobsen (1895–1965; Wikidata Q95348157)? If so, I might add a WP:REDLINK as the entry in Dansk Biografisk Leksikon seems to indicate that he meets WP:ANYBIO criterion #3 ("The person has an entry in a country's standard national biographical dictionary (e.g. the Dictionary of National Biography)."). TompaDompa (talk) 20:56, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes. Identified him from the Niels Bohr Archive. I believe he meets WP:ANYBIO but he doesn't have an entry even on the Danish language Wikipedia. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:31, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- I see you have identified the man as "J. C. G. Jacobsen". I'm guessing that is the physicist Jacob Christian Georg Jacobsen (1895–1965; Wikidata Q95348157)? If so, I might add a WP:REDLINK as the entry in Dansk Biografisk Leksikon seems to indicate that he meets WP:ANYBIO criterion #3 ("The person has an entry in a country's standard national biographical dictionary (e.g. the Dictionary of National Biography)."). TompaDompa (talk) 20:56, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- I have seen some cases where Meitner is described as the only woman in the room. And [26], for example, deliberately crops the image so she is. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:32, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- The unidentified man is the one at the very end (if nothing else, our article on Rudolf Ladenburg uses a cropped version of this very image, showing the man sitting next to Meitner), right? In that case, the current "[...] Otto Stern, an unidentified man and Rudolf Ladenburg" should be ""[...] Otto Stern, Rudolf Ladenburg, and an unidentified man".Levi stands out okay in the full-size image, but not so much in miniature versions that one may see on this article under typical viewing conditions (screen size and resolution, and so on). I also think it says something that Meitner is in the front row while Levi is furthest back, and that the caption should note this. TompaDompa (talk) 18:48, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- The image does not identify him. Tweaked caption. I would have thought Levi stood out, but she is at the back next to Mark Oliphant. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"Meitner was so stunned by this result" – it is not clear from this whether she was stunned that it appeared to match or that it didn't quite match.- Reworded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"It appeared that the law of conservation of energy did not hold for beta decay" – it is not obvious how this conclusion follows from what was stated before.- Tried to make this clearer. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think it works now, assuming I have understood it correctly—the difference between the spectrum's measured energy and the disintegration energy was viewed as a real difference (as opposed to being within the expected margin of error for the setup), meaning there was an unexplained "loss" of energy. Did I get that right? TompaDompa (talk) 18:48, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, but it is the implication of this that bothered the physicists. Quantum theory hold that the electrons can only have discrete energy states. How then can they not have when ejected? (As an aside: Chadwick conducted this experiment while in an internment camp with a home-made Geiger counter and a tube of toothpaste.) Here, Meitner shows her tenacity as a physicist. This has important results later. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:38, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think it works now, assuming I have understood it correctly—the difference between the spectrum's measured energy and the disintegration energy was viewed as a real difference (as opposed to being within the expected margin of error for the setup), meaning there was an unexplained "loss" of energy. Did I get that right? TompaDompa (talk) 18:48, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- Tried to make this clearer. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Nazi Germany
"the largest party in the Reichstag (Weimar Republic)" – stray parenthetical disambiguator.- Removed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"Meitner published exclusively in Naturwissenschaften" – should probably clarify that this is a journal.- Clarified. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Transmutation
"Irène Curie and Frédéric Joliot irradiated aluminium foil with alpha particles, and found that this results in a short-lived radioactive isotope of phosphorus. They noted that positron emission continued after the neutron emissions ceased." – neutron emissions? Not alpha particle bombardment? It would make perfect sense to me if positron emission continuing after the alpha irradiation ceased was viewed as evidence of radioactivity (as opposed to the bombardment "knocking loose" positrons directly or something), but I can't quite figure out the text as it is, which is why I'm suspecting an error of some kind (or maybe I'm just bad at nuclear physics).- You are correct. Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Escape from Germany
"On 1 August she took the train to Stockholm, where she was met at Göteborg station by Eva von Bahr." – this phrasing makes it sound like she was met by von Bahr at Göteborg station in Stockholm, which is of course nonsensical. Did she take the Stockholm-bound train and disembark at Göteborg? Or did she take the train to Stockholm and was joined from Göteborg by von Bahr? The former sounds much more likely as Kungälv, where they went next, is much closer to Göteborg than to Stockholm.- The former. Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"on 9 November" – WP:EASTEREGG.- removed link. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"the results of the experiments, particularly the supposed discovery of isomers of radium" – the what now? Unless I've missed something major, this has not been mentioned previously.- More details in the main article. Alluded to above in the final paragraph on transmutation. Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Nuclear fission
- "Hahn and Strassmann isolated the three radium isotopes" – as above: which? Also, is "isotopes" here and "isomers" in the preceding section correct, or should they match?
- Isotopes is correct here. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"the liquid-drop model of the nucleus" – at present, this is a WP:REDLINK. That's not necessarily a problem, but I note that liquid-drop model redirects to semi-empirical mass formula, so you want to tweak the link or create a redirect (or not—redlinks are fine).- Corrected the link. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"Hahn had mistakenly believed that the atomic masses had to add up to 239 rather than the atomic numbers adding up to 92, and thought it was masurium (technetium), and so did not check for it: 235
92U + n →
56Ba +
36Kr + some n" – surely that should be uranium-238 on the left-hand side rather than uranium-235, if the atomic mass should add up to be 239?- Tweaked the formula by removing "235". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Nobel Prize for nuclear fission
- I don't think this heading really works. It sticks out a bit from the other (which it wouldn't if it were plain "Nobel Prize"), but more importantly it belies that Meitner did not receive the Nobel Prize. I don't have any good alternative suggestion right now, however.
- Changed to "Nobel Prize"
"On 15 November 1945, the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences announced that Hahn had been awarded the 1944 Nobel Prize in Chemistry" – this looks like an error, but it isn't one. I would definitely add an explanatory footnote about the one-year delay."The five-member physics committee included Manne Siegbahn, his former student Erik Hulthén, the professor of experimental physics at Uppsala University, and Axel Lindh, who eventually succeeded Hulthén." – if that's three people, the first and third commas need to be semicolons.- Added sme-colons. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- "The poor relationship between Siegbahn and Meitner" – that their relationship was poor came as news to me, as there was not really anything obvious above to suggest so—or did I miss it?
- It is the first mention. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"The poor relationship between Siegbahn and Meitner was a factor here, as was the bias towards experimental rather than theoretical physics (a bias that did not help Chien-Shiung Wu when she was omitted from the Nobel Prize for her experimental work and the prize awarded to two men for their theoretical work)." - this borders on snide. The intended meaning is clearly that the exclusion was due to bias against women, the implicit (but unsubtle) argument being that even a bias in favour of a particular subfield was later not enough for a woman to be awarded. If the accusation of gender bias is attributable to appropriate sources, make it explicitly and attribute it to those sources. If it is not, remove the implicit one. If the mention of Chien-Shiung Wu being omitted from the Nobel Prize is retained, the year should be given.- Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"Hahn's receipt of a Nobel Prize was long expected." – the word "receipt" stands out to me as I almost never encounter it in any other sense than, well, receipt. I would suggest rephrasing here.- Tightened text. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- This section feels quite a bit like it was written to be later in the article than it currently is, beginning with "Despite the many honours that Meitner received in her lifetime" (as though referring back to the "Awards and honours" section), discussing the poor relationship between Siegbahn and Meitner (which is mentioned in the following section, "Later life", even if only briefly), and just generally covering events that happened at a later point in time than the first couple of paragraphs of the following section. This is, I think, a rather serious issue with the structure of the article at present. My suggestion would be to remove this section, add the Nobel Prize stuff in its proper chronological place in the following section in a "just the facts" manner, and move the analysis of the Nobel Prize stuff to the last section (which could optionally be renamed "Legacy" or something).
- Changed as suggested. (But it was never intended to be later in the article.) Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Later life
"Jutz's boss, Gottfried Bermann had escaped to Sweden" – zero or two commas would work. One does not.- Added comma. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"Her sister Gisela and brother-in-law Karl Lion moved to England, Meitner also considered moving to Britain." – a comma is not the right punctuation here.- Reworded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"Siegbahn's obstruction of Meitner's Nobel Prize" – the description of this turn of events earlier in the article does not really seem to fit the term "obstruction".- Reworded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- "The intention was that Meitner would have the salary and title of a "research professor"—one without teaching duties." – does the source say anything about whether having or not having teaching duties would be seen as preferable here?
- I thought all professors aspired to not teach. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"The professorship fell through when the Minister for Education, Tage Erlander, unexpectedly became the Prime Minister of Sweden" – I would state the year.- "she applied magic numbers to nuclear fission" – I daresay both the meaning and significance of this will be unclear to most readers.
- They can read the article. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Awards and honours
Marie Curie, German Physical Society, and Free University of Berlin are all linked twice in this section.- Removed duplicate links. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"Four years later she was elected a Foreign Member of the Royal Society." – something of an WP:EASTEREGG.- Altered link Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
"In 2000, the European Physical Society established the biannual "Lise Meitner Prize"" – there exists a Lise Meitner Prize article, and going by that article it should be "biennial" rather than "biannual".- Changed as suggested, linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- The list of items named after Meitner appears to largely be cited to sources on the items themselves, rather than sources on Meitner or sources on items named after Meitner. This is not ideal from a WP:PROPORTION perspective. How is the relative importance of the different items (compared to each other) assessed to make sure the weight is due? Likewise, how is the relative importance of this aspect of the overall topic (Lise Meitner) compared to other aspects assessed to make sure the weight is due? From a WP:PROPORTION perspective, this is the equivalent of the much-maligned (and now deprecated) practice of sourcing "In popular culture" sections to primary sources.
- Each source is authoritative, and details that the item was named after Lise Meitner. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Were my point about whether the information is correct/verifiable, that would be sufficient. But that's not the point I'm making. The point I'm making is about whether the information is WP:DUE, or more specifically WP:PROPORTIONAL. TompaDompa (talk) 17:57, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- Hawkeye7, Gah4 ? Gog the Mild (talk) 19:01, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Such sections are customary in biographical articles, and multiple editors assert that is WP:DUE, given Meitner's fame. In some articles there has been an effort to construct exhaustive lists of honours and awards but this one makes no such claim. The relative importance of particular items is not so important; the chosen items illustrate the paths of commeration. Obviously, getting an element named after her is a big deal, but the simple renaming of a building illustrates the trajectory of commeration of women in science over the last half century. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:26, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- I do not find that satisfactory. Editors do not determine what is due, sources do. TompaDompa (talk) 23:37, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Such sections are customary in biographical articles, and multiple editors assert that is WP:DUE, given Meitner's fame. In some articles there has been an effort to construct exhaustive lists of honours and awards but this one makes no such claim. The relative importance of particular items is not so important; the chosen items illustrate the paths of commeration. Obviously, getting an element named after her is a big deal, but the simple renaming of a building illustrates the trajectory of commeration of women in science over the last half century. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:26, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hawkeye7, Gah4 ? Gog the Mild (talk) 19:01, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Were my point about whether the information is correct/verifiable, that would be sufficient. But that's not the point I'm making. The point I'm making is about whether the information is WP:DUE, or more specifically WP:PROPORTIONAL. TompaDompa (talk) 17:57, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- Each source is authoritative, and details that the item was named after Lise Meitner. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
Ping Hawkeye7. TompaDompa (talk) 19:13, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Hawkeye7? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 15:59, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't agree with this interpretation of WP:PROPORTIONAL, but even if we I did, it does not agree with the sources. This can be seen in Frisch (1970) pp. 415-416. Of course, it only goes up to 1970. There is also Sime (1999), p. 267. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:04, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
Matarisvan
[edit]Hi Hawkeye7, my comments:
- Provide a translation from German for her thesis in the infobox, as done in the body?
- Provided. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Could we add Phillip Meitner in the infobox?
- Link to freethinker (freethought)?
- Isn't the 1906 portrait of Meitner creating a WP:SANDWICH with the infobox? Consider moving it down a little?
- Moved image down. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Gloss Matura in one or two words per NOFORCELINK?
- Link to Maxwell Formula (probably Maxwell's equations)?
- Is the link to Montreal necessary?
- deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- "and settled as radioactive dust": "had settled"?
- Don't see the need, but changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Link to Austrian Army (Imperial-Royal Landwehr)?
- That would be incorrect. Hahn served in the Prussian Landwehr. He was German; Meitner was Austrian. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Link to tantalum?
- Link to radium-226?
- "proposed of the nucleus": remove the "proposed"?
- Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Link to technetium?
- Link to Geiger counter?
- Link to George de Hevesy?
- Link to American Physical Society and Physics Today?
- Link to Oskar Klein?
- Link to Erwin Schrödinger?
- Link to Max Perutz?
- Provide translated titles and journal names for refs #16, #18, #42, #55, #146, Stolz 1989?
- Provided. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Provide an archive url for ref #168?
- Not possible, I'm afraid. Substituted a new reference. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Provide a link for ref #136?
- Don't have one. switched to another source.
- In the biblio, link to Nicholas Dawidoff, Willy Ley?
- Provide publication locations for Sexl and Hardy 2002, Stolz 1989?
- Provided. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Why have we not used the sources in the Further Reading section in the article? If they don't have anything unique, I would suggest removing them; if they do, then you can always include them in the biblio and cite them.
- I will incorporate some of them. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:26, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
A fine article overall, only the source formatting seems to be a bit off. Matarisvan (talk) 17:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Hawkeye7, Gah4, just Matarisvan's last point still to be addressed. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:04, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Hawkeye7, I would like to suggest these last few changes: add a link or identifier for ref #17; add ISBN or OCLC for Frisch 1959, add an archive URL for the Hedqvist link and convert the underlying template from Citation to Cite encyclopedia. Also consider adding the location of publication for Rife 1999. Matarisvan (talk) 06:19, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ref #17 is not available online.
- OCLC added to Frisch (1959); it is too old to have an ISBN
- The underlying template for Hedqvist is Template:SKBL, not cite encyclopaedia. It is generated from Wikidata P4963
- Added location for Rife
- Hawkeye7 (discuss) 11:38, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Now that this is done, a support from me for promotion to FA class. Matarisvan (talk) 03:23, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Hawkeye7, I would like to suggest these last few changes: add a link or identifier for ref #17; add ISBN or OCLC for Frisch 1959, add an archive URL for the Hedqvist link and convert the underlying template from Citation to Cite encyclopedia. Also consider adding the location of publication for Rife 1999. Matarisvan (talk) 06:19, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hawkeye7, Gah4, just Matarisvan's last point still to be addressed. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:04, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
Edwininlondon
[edit]I'm pleased to see an article about a female scientist here, thank you for such an excellent effort. With the caveat that I am not a native speaker, here are some comments. Feel free to ignore.
- The repetition of her name in bold is not great. I know of no specific guideline but in earlier FAs I have applied the use of " to introduce the commonly used first name. For example Nancy Sophie Cornélie "Corry" Tendeloo. So could Elise "Lise" Meitner be an option?
- There is a specific guideline. MOS:BOLD: "Boldface is often applied to the first occurrence of the article's title word or phrase in the lead. This is also done at the first occurrence of a term (commonly a synonym in the lead) that redirects to the article or one of its subsections, whether the term appears in the lead or not" Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- I avoided the construct 'Elise "Lise" Meitner' because that would give the impression that it was a nickname, and it was not. Note that she signed her papers "Dr. Lise Meitner". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- who was one of those responsible for the discovery of the element protactinium and the discovery of nuclear fission --> who was instrumental in the discovery of protactinium and nuclear fission
- Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- department head at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Chemistry there --> can we drop "there"?
- Another editor wanted it clarified that the KWI was in Berlin.
- to be with other family members --> to be with her family members, or, perhaps: to be with family members
- Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- She also adopted the shortened name "Lise" --> is it known when?
- Not known. Her matura was recorded under the name Elise Meitner. "Lise's name also changed slightly from its original Elise. In Berlin such things might have caused a flurry of paperwork; in Vienna it made no difference." Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- She completed her final year of school --> from reading onwards I gather this is not secondary school. Would it not be better to explicitly say primary school here?
- She went to a high school for girls that went to what in my country would be year 8. This might be consider primary school depending on where the reader is. So it would not be better. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- but women were not allowed to attend public institutions of higher education in Vienna until 1897--> I don't get the "but". And would the list of subjects at school not be better placed with the earlier sentence about final year of school?
- Re-worded to make this clearer. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- the girls --> at age 23 she is not a girl. And the others were introduced as other young women. So "women" instead of girls
- She was 22, but point taken. Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Only four out of fourteen girls --> same thing
- Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- She was particularly inspired by Boltzmann --> to avoid confusion, perhaps professor Boltzmann
- Changed to "Ludwig Boltzmann". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- "Examination of a Maxwell Formula" --> "Examination of a Maxwell equation"
- Sure. Pardon my MilHist German. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- "Thermal Conduction in Inhomogeneous Bodies" --> "Thermal conduction in inhomogeneous bodies"
- Title, so used title case. German conventions are different. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- she went further and made predictions based on her explanation, and then verified them experimentally --> this seems like a notable event that should be described in a bit more detail: what kind of optics issue are we talking about, what did she predict, how did she verify?
- Sources do not say; I have the journal reference, but copies are not available online, or in hard copy outside Germany. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Meitner was introduced by Stefan Meyer--> is it known when?
- In 1906. Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- This led Ernest Rutherford to predict the nuclear atom. She submitted her findings to the Physikalische Zeitschrift on 29 June 1907. --> From this order I infer that Rutherford made the prediction before her publication, and thus that there was some sort of informal communication between them. Is this the case?
- No; he read her paper. Revered the sentences to make this clearer. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- , and shared her love of music --> because of that comma, I read this with Meitner being the subject of the verb shared. But I guess you meant the twins to be the subject, am I right?
- Yes. Not sure what can be done here; changed to "Meitner's love of music". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- During the first years Meitner worked together with Hahn they co-authored three papers in 1908, and six more in 1909 --> During the first two years Meitner worked together with Hahn, they co-authored nine papers: three in 1908, six in 1909
- Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- physical separation method known as radioactive recoil --> I assume that is the same as atomic recoil, and thus should be linked, right?
- Yes. Linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- discovered two more new isotopes --> which ones specifically?
- Sigh. Bismuth-211 and Thalium-207. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- For this more pitchblende was required, and --> For this yet more pitchblende was required, but
- Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- who independently discovered it in 1923 --> when did Meitner discover it?
- In 1922. Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Vor allem steht ihre chemische Verschiedenheit von allen bisher bekannten Elementen außerhalb jeder Diskussion --> I don't think we need the German here
- I would prefer to keep it, so the reder knows that I am not misquoting or misrepresenting Hahn. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- at Manne Siegbahn's new laboratory --> better link label would be at the Manne Siegbahn Laboratory
- Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- amiable --> not sure I would use this. I'm sure Sigvard was amiable, but we might need quite a few sources first before we can say this
- Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- reached a similar conclusion --> similar to what? + state when he said this
- Moved this paragraph back where it belonged. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- I find it remarkable that Meitner lived so long and did not seem to have suffered any radiation damage. She must have been really careful from the beginning. This is just a thought, no need to act on it.
- Ditto for Otto Hahn, who also made it to age 89. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
That's all I have on prose. I will look at other aspects later today. Edwininlondon (talk) 08:54, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
More:
- Caption reads "Pressure from historians, scientists and feminists caused the museum" ... which museum?
- Deutsches Museum. Added. With link. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:49, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
Notes section:
- ref 4, 9, 25, 39, 73, 75, 78, 96, 98, 110, 111, 153 all need a specific page number or pp
- ref 39: the title is April 1915: Five ...
- Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:49, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- inconsistent formatting: sometimes the journal article authors are of "Hahn, O." format, and sometimes "O., Hahn". Check all and make uniform
- Checked and corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:49, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- inconsistent naming: Free University of Berlin vs Freie Universität Berlin
- http://www.amacad.org/publications/BookofMembers/ChapterM.pdf seems to be a dead link
- Works for me. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:49, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- ref 56 does a) not support the claim, and b) not seem to be a high quality source, since I seem to be able to edit the content just by signing in
- Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:49, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- perhaps it would be wise to archive some of the web pages used (Max Planck, Free University of Berlin
- A bot will come through. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:49, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
References section:
- Frisch, O. R. (1970): all the other authors have their first name spelled out, plus the source itself also has Otto Robert instead of O. R.
- Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:49, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
I did a few spotchecks and all checked out fine. Edwininlondon (talk) 09:30, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Support: I believe this fine article meets the FA standard. Thanks again for all your work. Edwininlondon (talk) 08:34, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
John
[edit]"On 1 August she took the train to Göteborg station in Sweden." I don't think it was possible to do this journey by train in the 1940s. Was it? John (talk) 07:03, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- From Copenhagen to Stockholm? In 1938? Sure. It became difficult after Denmark was invaded in April 1940. (example ticket) Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:38, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure the Øresund would have been in the way, which was not bridged until 2000. I imagine some kind of ferry or boat train must have been involved in 1938. It sounds funny if you know the geography to just say "took the train". What do the sources say? John (talk) 10:02, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
On 1 August, she left for Sweden. Again the trip was beautiful. Eva von Bahr-Bergius was waiting for her at the Göteborg station. Together they continued by train and then steamer to Eva's home in Kungälv, a small town on the west coast where Lise planned to stay until September.
- There was a train ferry when I made the trip in 1998. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:35, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- According to the regional administrative board of Skåne train ferry service opened between Elsinore and Helsingborg in 1892, and between Copenhagen and Malmö in 1895. Draken Bowser (talk) 23:17, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- Also, are you happy with my edits so far? John (talk) 10:37, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- Fine with me. I note that another editor wanted it clarified that Berlin is in Germany and Stockholm in Sweden. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:35, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure about calling her "Jewish Austrian" in the lead. Could we say "Austrian Jewish"? John (talk) 12:33, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- I trimmed the "Jewish" from the lead sentence. Her Jewishness was only defintionally important to the Nazis. She was a scientist, not a religious figure. We find out about her ethnicity and the trouble it caused her in her life, but I do not think it is needed in the first sentence. Happy to discuss, of course.John (talk)
- Sure. Meitner's problem was sexism, not racism, up until the Nazis came on the scene. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:35, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- I trimmed the "Jewish" from the lead sentence. Her Jewishness was only defintionally important to the Nazis. She was a scientist, not a religious figure. We find out about her ethnicity and the trouble it caused her in her life, but I do not think it is needed in the first sentence. Happy to discuss, of course.John (talk)
Support. Thanks for your work on this fine article. John (talk) 11:12, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
Source review
[edit]Well, this is a high-profile topic if there ever was one. Keeping my usual caveat about not being familiar with the topic in mind, I wonder if there is any dedicated discussion to the conflict with the Nazis. It seems like we are using mostly academic publications and major publishers. What makes http://www.orlandoleibovitz.com/Lise_Meitner_and_Nuclear_Fission.html a reliable source? #112, should that give Nobel Prize rather than www.nobelprize.org? Especially since #113 does. Bit inconsistent with retrieval dates - #118 doesn't have one but #145 does? I wonder why only one German biography is used. What is the logic between placing some publications into Further Reading? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:39, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Hawkeye7 ? Gog the Mild (talk) 10:54, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Removed www.orlandoleibovitz.com. Changed #112. Added date to #118.
- More than one German biography was actually used, but WP:NONENG: English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones when they are available and of equal quality and relevance.
- Further reading: in the case of this article, the Further reading section dates back to 2005 and is actually older than the text of the article. It seems that readers proposed these sources but none of the works was ever used as a source. I do not remove material without a good reason. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 12:56, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Mm, in this case I wonder if some of these Further Reading could be used as sources. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 19:23, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hawkeye7, Gah4 (talk) ? Gog the Mild (talk) 13:24, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- I could incorporate some of them. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:26, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- I have cut the Further reading back and added a couple of them to the article. I do not have access to the remaining book. I do have access to the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists article, but since that is a book review of one of the major sources in the article, I have retained it in the Further reading. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:10, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- I could incorporate some of them. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:26, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hawkeye7, Gah4 (talk) ? Gog the Mild (talk) 13:24, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Mm, in this case I wonder if some of these Further Reading could be used as sources. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 19:23, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hi Jo-Jo, how's that? Gog the Mild (talk) 17:07, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- Seems like this passes. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:15, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hi Jo-Jo, how's that? Gog the Mild (talk) 17:07, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
Drive-by comment
[edit]- References: article titles should consistently be in title case, regardless of how they appear in their original. (Eg Watkins) Gog the Mild (talk) 18:04, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Changed to title. case. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:39, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nominator(s): Turini2 (talk) 08:40, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
The first edition of the Tour de France Femmes (a cycling race) – held in 2022 after years of campaigning for a women's Tour de France race.
This is a second attempt (nominated before, and I didn't get to fixing things in time – these have now been resolved). The article is a GA and has been through the WP:GOCE process. Wish me luck! Turini2 (talk) 08:40, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
- Some polite pings - @AirshipJungleman29 who took part in the first review, and @Reidgreg who did the very excellent job of copyediting the article! Turini2 (talk) 17:35, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
- Does anyone else have comments on this? Ready and waiting to make any required edits or answer queries that people have. :) Turini2 (talk) 09:33, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments from Reidgreg
[edit]As noted above, I copyedited the article in Nov 2023 (copyedited version) and may be biased toward that version.
- I'm still not a fan of the wide infobox; the map is not terribly legible, so I'm not sure the point of having it take up that much room.
- I feel that the five-paragraph lead could probably be consolidated to two or three paragraphs for an article of this size. My copyedit version handled it after the lead paragraph as a results-oriented summary, putting the winners first as that's the most important result; I can see from the previous FAC review that some other editors prefer a chronological summary of the race. Can't say that I agree, but in any case it should be simpler and more concise.
The race would take place prior to the final stage of the men's race in Paris.
If it can be confirmed to have happened, use past tense.and not being hard enough for the professional peloton
Not being difficult enough or challenging enough.pushed for La Course to evolve into a multi day stage race, with former cyclist & commentator
multi-stage, cyclist and commentator.- As a matter of completeness, should there be a brief mention of how this race affected the second and third editions of the race?
That's it for now. – Reidgreg (talk) 01:11, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- Tweaks made. I also prefer your version of the lead – I expanded it slightly to accommodate the request for a chronological telling of the race following the last FAC review. In terms of the infobox, it's following the pattern of other Tour de France articles (e.g. FA 2012 Tour de France). Thanks for your help! Turini2 (talk) 07:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- As per the below, the lead now has three paragraphs - an introduction, 1st/2nd/3rd in general classification, and the winners of the other classifications. Turini2 (talk) 09:34, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hey, do you have any further comments or thoughts on this article. Thanks! Turini2 (talk) 07:45, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
Gog the Mild
[edit]Recusing to review.
- The lead is IMO a little long in proportion to the article, and MOS:LEADLENGTH suggests it should consist of "One or two paragraphs".
- "French rider Jeannie Longo won the 1987, 1988 and 1989 editions of the race, gaining fame in the process". This seems a little random. A factoid about one rider dropped into the history of the race.
- Would I be correct in assuming that no women's race took place in 2010, 2011, 2012, nor 2013? If so, perhaps this could be stated.
- "with sponsors welcoming the visibility of the Champs-Élysées". How is this relevant to the article?
More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:07, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- In the lead, I have struggled with including all relevant information requested while keeping the length. Pointers welcome!
- The lead is not supposed to include all relevant information, it is intended to briefly summarise the article. I have put a draft of a slimmed down version on the talk page. See what you think. Note that it is not normal to include citations in the lead. (Nor the infobox.) As a summary, anything in the lead will be covered more fully in the main article, where it will be cited in more detail.
- Have rewritten the lead, now much shorter.
- The lead is not supposed to include all relevant information, it is intended to briefly summarise the article. I have put a draft of a slimmed down version on the talk page. See what you think. Note that it is not normal to include citations in the lead. (Nor the infobox.) As a summary, anything in the lead will be covered more fully in the main article, where it will be cited in more detail.
- Jeannie Longo is a reasonably famous sportswoman, particularly in France - happy to remove, but thought a useful (and referenced) historical tidbit.
- Almost the definition of things not to include. Either expand the mention to explain why and how Longo particularly influenced the development of the Tour de France Femmes - assuming she did - or take it out.
- Removed.
- Almost the definition of things not to include. Either expand the mention to explain why and how Longo particularly influenced the development of the Tour de France Femmes - assuming she did - or take it out.
- Realistically, the last "Tour de France Féminin" was in 1989 - the organisers of the men's race didn't allow them to use their trademark. Hence the "although the name of the event changed several times" phrasing. There were other ersatz women's races that tried to be a ""Tour de France Féminin" - e.g. La Route de France. It's complicated!
- That's why we FAC nominators get the big bucks! (Try explaining 3rd century BC naval tactics.) from whenever you start, if there was some sort of proto-TdFF you need to mention briefly it, if there wasn't you need to say so, if it was complicated you need to briefly explain the nature of the complication. What you do, you have done well, but what seem to be gaps stand out.
- Have rephrased and reworded, to make clearer.
- That's why we FAC nominators get the big bucks! (Try explaining 3rd century BC naval tactics.) from whenever you start, if there was some sort of proto-TdFF you need to mention briefly it, if there wasn't you need to say so, if it was complicated you need to briefly explain the nature of the complication. What you do, you have done well, but what seem to be gaps stand out.
- Women's cycling historically has not been on live TV or well supported commercially - sources back up that sponsors of teams were very happy to be "sharing the stage" with the Tour de France. Again, happy to remove or rephrase.
- I meant that thee and me might understand the connection between the TdF and the visibility of the Champs-Élysées, but a non-aficionado will have no idea what you are talking about. And as an encyclopedia we are supposed to be explaining things for a general audience.
- Have reworded, and added a slight bit to the background.
- I meant that thee and me might understand the connection between the TdF and the visibility of the Champs-Élysées, but a non-aficionado will have no idea what you are talking about. And as an encyclopedia we are supposed to be explaining things for a general audience.
- Turini2 (talk) 21:18, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- "and not being challenging enough for the professional peloton". What is "the professional peloton"? And why "the" and not 'a'?
- Piped to clarify
- "Riders and campaigners pushed for La Course to evolve into a multi-stage race, cyclist & commentator Joanna Rowsell stating". The comma should be either a full stop or a semi colon.
- Fixed
- "We need mountain climbs, flat stages, time trials and a Champs-Elysees finish". Reading this made me realise that the article just assumes that the reader is aware of the TdF for men to quite a detailed level. I think you need to explain it somewhere near the start of Background, including what all of these things are and touching on the different jerseys. I assume that you can steal most of this from the TdF article. Having just reread, I am eg unsure from the article whether La Course by Le Tour de France was a stage race or not. Or what a stage is.
- I've added a sentence on what the Tour de France is at the start of Background... I note that FA 2012 Tour de France does not provide this level of background information. Have tweaked things to clarify.
- "Pushing back on criticism". "on" → 'at'.
- Fixed
- Did la Course by Le Tour de France occur in each year from 2013 to 2021?
- Rephrased
- "with Anna van der Breggen stating ... and Cecilie Uttrup Ludwig stating ..." Who are these two that a reader might care about their opinions? And synonym time, can we avoid two times "stating".
- Clarified
I am going to pause here. I think I have given you a fair bit to think about, come back on and/or get on with and I would like to get this foundation stage of the article sorted before moving on to the detail. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:56, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- I hope the improvements take it a big step forward! Turini2 (talk) 10:17, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Gog the Mild hi - as per above, I've made those edits and redrafted the lead substantially - now 267 words in length (3 paragraphs) rather than 369 words. Turini2 (talk) 19:14, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- I hope the improvements take it a big step forward! Turini2 (talk) 10:17, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Right, thanks for that. It is now, IMO, in better shape. However, moving on I feel that we may be getting into something akin to a fix loop. For example
- 'The overall length of the event was met with agreement, with some teams noting that they do not "yet have the staff or numbers ... for a three-week event." ' As it happens, I know the relevance of "a three-week event", but a passing reader may not and I don't see it explained elsewhere in the article. I feel, as I suspect the nominator does, that this is an important point, in which case it needs explaining.
- There is a section called "Mountain stages", but no explanation of what they are, nor their significance. Similarly re the several mentions of "summit finish".
- "chasing back after a mechanical". I am not sure that "chasing back" will be readily understood. I am sure that "a mechanical" won't. While it is piped, MOS:NOFORCELINK says "Do use a link wherever appropriate, but as far as possible do not force a reader to use that link to understand the sentence. The text needs to make sense to readers who cannot follow links." There are several other examples of a Wikilink being used instead of an in line explanation. (And where, IMO, a reader in unlikely to understand what is meant from context and where understanding the text is important to understanding the article.)
- Given the points above, each of which is an example of a broader point which I am unhappy with, I am currently leaning oppose. Unfortunately, while happy in principle to discuss this and open to changing my mind - there is a lot of good work in the article and it is not that far off FA standard - I am going to be away from any internet connection for most of a week. So apologies for an anticipated slow response. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- I consider I have addressed these three points, as well as making some wider edits to clarify things and unknown terms. In terms of your wider point about a fix loop, this is why I had the article copyedited prior to bringing it to FAC. Turini2 (talk) 17:51, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- Hey, would you consider these points to be resolved? Thanks! Turini2 (talk) 07:46, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
Image review - pass
[edit]The article uses the following main images:
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2022_Tour_de_France_Femmes.svg
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2019-10-26_14-54-37_planche-des-belles-filles.jpg
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jumbo_tour_de_france_reims_1408748.jpg
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2022-07-30_16-36-56_TDFF-Willer-sur-Thur_(cropped).jpg
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2022-07-31_17-20-13_TDFF-Plancher-les-Mines.jpg
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2022-07-31_-_TDF_Femmes_-_Lure_-_302_(cropped).jpg
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2022-07-30_16-38-12_TDFF-Willer-sur-Thur_(cropped).jpg
They are all own works from wikimedia users and all licensed under Creative Commons. All images are relevant to the article. The image "2019-10-26 14-54-37 planche-des-belles-filles.jpg" lacks an alt text but the others have alt texts. All images have captions. The caption The final stage of the race finished at the hors catégorie (English: beyond category) La Super Planche des Belles Filles climb needs to end with a period as it is a full sentence. I suggest removing the expression "the hors catégorie (English: beyond category)" because readers may not be familiar with this technical term, the translation in parenthesis is not helpful, and the information is not essential to understand the image. The caption Large crowds greeted the Tour also needs to end with a period. Phlsph7 (talk) 10:05, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Amended and fixed, thanks! Turini2 (talk) 10:53, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Looks good, the article passes the image review. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:18, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
Coordinator note
[edit]At four weeks in, the article has failed to progress towards a consensus to promote. Unless there is a significant change in the next few days it is liable to be archived. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 19:05, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- How do I encourage more people to engage with this article? I've been pretty on the ball here and responded to changes requested? Turini2 (talk) 07:34, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- SC
A marker for now. I'll be along shortly for a review. - SchroCat (talk) 11:09, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support This is a decent article - nothing here that would stop it being an FA as far as I am concerned. I think you've done well in explaining the technical side in most places (I know nothing about cycling except that it's a damned uncomfortable for of transportation, but I still managed to understand it).Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 14:09, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments from Penitentes
[edit]Hello! Some initial comments after a read-through (disclaimer: I have no real knowledge of cycling)!
The early breakaway was caught in the closing kilometres, with the stage win determined by a bunch sprint.
- I agree with Gog the Mild above in that there are several cases where I can guess at the meanings of terms but am not certain of them. Both "breakaway" and "bunch sprint" are not perfectly clear to me. "Bunch sprint" could use a link to the glossary and both could use a very brief explanation.On the Petit Ballon, with 86 kilometres (53 mi) remaining, van Vleuten broke away from the peloton
- Suggest changing to (and linking) Col du Petit Ballon, or Petit Ballon if the sentence is referring to the mountain itself instead of the pass.A kilometre (0.6 mi) from the top of the Col du Platzerwasel
- Suggest linking to Col du Platzerwasel.Van Vleuten rejoined the peloton at the foot of the second climb, the Ballon d'Alsace.
- Suggest linking to Col du Ballon d'Alsace.van Vleuten suffered a mechanical
- Gog the Mild is correct above in that I wasn't quite sure what "a mechanical" referred to until I saw the link to it. I think this is worth instead calling "an issue with her bike", or even specifying what the issue was if there's coverage of it....Women's WorldTour races have a maximum stage length of 160 kilometres ... the longest of the Women's WorldTour calendar...
- Are these two instances of "WorldTour" referring to the UCI Women's World Tour? If so, is there a reason they are spelled differently?
Overall, I think my impressions are very close to that of Gog. It's a very good article and it's close to fulfilling FAC criteria! But it does read like an aficionado of the sport wrote it and so it suffers from a little bit of jargon. — Penitentes (talk) 15:05, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks very much – I've made most of these amendments.
- Clarified wording in a few spots and rephrased.
- Added links to climbs. Sources refer to them as Ballon d'Alsace and Petit Ballon (not Col), so I've left that wording w while linking them. Interestingly, I had considered adding links to them previously – but considered it to be MOS:OVERLINK !
- Mechanical – sources usually specify what the issue is (i.e. a broken part of the bike, a puncture etc) but in this case, I can't find what the issue was – even in a specific article about the incident! I've amended to "an issue with her bike" as suggested.
- Sources (and the governing body Union Cycliste Internationale) have WorldTour without a space, so I've followed their example. Unsure why the wikipedia article name differs!
- Turini2 (talk) 15:49, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, good changes all! Assuming the source concerns below (incl. spotchecks) get addressed I will be a support. — Penitentes (talk) 18:20, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
Source review - spotchecks not done
- CyclingWeekly is a work title and should be italicized, and be consistent in whether it's presented as CyclingWeekly or cyclingweekly.com. Ditto letourfemmes.fr vs Tour de France Femmes, Cycling News vs cyclingnews.com... check throughout
- Fixed
- Check wikilinking as well - eg you've got a wikilink on Tour de France Femmes in FN82 but not FN1. Why is there a publisher included in FN1 and not FN2? On 80 and not 81? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:09, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Fixed
- Be consistent in whether "The" is included for publication titles that use it, and if so whether it is capitalized
- Fixed
- Why The New York Times but just Washington Post? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:09, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Fixed
- Be consistent in whether you include ISSN - for example FNs 60 and 75 are to the same publication but only one includes it
- Fixed.
- FN5 is missing author. Ditto FN16, check throughout
- Fixed and checked.
- FN6 is dead
- No thanks to the Washington Post not allowing archiving of their old posts! Found a fixed link, and changed citation to News.
- Be consistent in whether author names are presented first or last name first
- One author name replaced with first/last.
- FNs 12 and 13 are the same work. Dittos FNs 31 and 32 - check throughout
- In both cases, one citation is supporting a quote, and the other citation is supporting a wider sentence/paragraph. Believe this is correct approach?
- Not sure I follow what you're saying here - why do you need different citations to the same source, rather than calling the same citation multiple times as you do elsewhere? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:09, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Because I specifically want to include a quote in the citation? The quote then does not support the wider sentence/paragraph, so I've used the same source for a different citation. Another example would be FN71 and FN77 - same source, two separate quotes to support two separate bits. Turini2 (talk) 07:22, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Fn14: title doesn't match current source and archive link is non-functional
- Fixed
- FN16 title also doesn't match source - check throughout
- I blame the autofill visual editor citations! Also fixed.
- If that's the problem, it looks to be a broader one - eg FN46 has the same issue. Suggest checking the others. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:09, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- These have all been checked and fixed. Turini2 (talk) 07:54, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
Stopping there and oppose for the moment - lots of cleaning up needed for consistency and functionality of citations. Happy to revisit once that's done. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:49, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Edits and fixes made - I believe that's everything checked and resolved! Turini2 (talk) 21:32, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hi Turini2, if you would like Nikkimaria to have another look, you will need to ping. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:17, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry about that, I will do that - thanks for the heads up! @Nikkimaria, would you consider this resolved? Turini2 (talk) 21:40, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- It looks like some of the responses haven't yet been addressed - for example, publisher in FN1 vs no publisher in FN2 is still the case, and there's no response on it above? Nikkimaria (talk) 23:41, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Checked and fixed - what happens when you reinsert a footnote!Turini2 (talk) 08:08, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Nikkimaria Resolved! Turini2 (talk) 08:08, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- Checked and fixed - what happens when you reinsert a footnote!Turini2 (talk) 08:08, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- It looks like some of the responses haven't yet been addressed - for example, publisher in FN1 vs no publisher in FN2 is still the case, and there's no response on it above? Nikkimaria (talk) 23:41, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry about that, I will do that - thanks for the heads up! @Nikkimaria, would you consider this resolved? Turini2 (talk) 21:40, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hi Turini2, if you would like Nikkimaria to have another look, you will need to ping. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:17, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Quote marks nested within quote marks should use single quotes
- Wikilinking is still inconsistent - eg you've got Cycling Weekly linked in FN 33 but not 5 or 34. You can do all, none, or first, but not random.
- Fn71 has reversed author too. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:31, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- I have referenced the first of all references (unless they have no article about said publication), and removed all other wikilinks. Reversed author fixed. Did not know about MOS:QWQ, also resolved! Turini2 (talk) 07:21, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments from Edwininlondon
[edit]As today the 2024 race kicks off, I will try to find time to review. My comments for the lead:
- avec Zwift --> this only appears in the lead. Should also be in the body somewhere. With source.
- took place from 24 to 31 July 2022 --> that 2022 is redundant. Already used at the start of the sentence
- the first sentence should say that it was a cycling race for female professionals
- I don't get what footnote a adds. Is this somehow controversial?
- media coverage, and was highly praised by the public, media, teams and riders --> why an Oxford comma after coverage, but not after teams?
- polka-dot jersey or polka dot jersey?
- so we have yellow jersey and GC link to the same place, which I think is fine, but then we should link polka dot and green and white jerseys as well. But then we end up with a sea of blue links. This would argue for not linking the yellow jersey.
- which brings me to the jerseys: the white one is explained well, but the others not very well. Queen of the mountain needs to be explained, points classification needs to be explained, and the general classification is such a misleading name (suggests some sort of average) that it needs to mention fastests time.
More to come later. Edwininlondon (talk) 09:07, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Majority have been resolved.
- in terms of the footnote, there were previous "women's Tour de France" races - called things like Tour de France Féminin. The footnote clarifies that the race is the first of the Tour de France Femmes races, as well as responding to a talk page comment. The first women's Tour de France took place in 1955, for example!
- In terms of the jerseys, it's already substantially more detailed than featured article 2012 Tour de France - and I don't want the lead to become longer, given previous feedback. Expanded a little in the race overview.
- Turini2 (talk) 09:44, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
Thanks for that FA 2012 Tour de France as a reference. That helps.
- I don't think a footnote is the right mechanism for explaining previous versions. This should be more prominent. I would take the first paragraph from Grande Boucle Féminine Internationale, condense it a bit, and place it as the 2nd sentence. And then reposition the "followed years of campaigning" to connect it.
- Rewritten
- held primarily in France, first held --> that duplication of held is not particularly elegant
- Fixed
- Since the mid-1980s --> I don't get why the ones prior to the 1980s are not mentioned
- using the Tour de France Féminin name from 1984 to 1989 --> other names should be listed as well
- Section rewritten
- sexism and trademark issues --> sexism, and trademark issues
- Fixed
- pushing for a women's Tour de France --> pushing for a revival of the women's Tour de France. Or a fully equivalent women's TdF. Or something distinguishable
- Fixed
- The one-day stage race would take place prior to the final stage of the men's race in Paris.[12] Between 2014 and 2021, La Course took place in a variety of locations across France in conjunction with the men's race --> this confused me. The "would take place" suggests to me that that was the plan, but actually did not happen. Then the location: first it is Paris and then it's all over France. Then the timing: first it is prior to final stage, then it is in conjunction.
- Fixed
- 'sharing the stage' --> why the ' and not "? Or no quotes at all?
- Fixed
- welcoming the live TV coverage and visibility of taking place alongside the men's race --> not sure about visibility of taking place. Let's assume it was held in January. It would still be visible.
- Disagree - backed up by FN13, moved to clarify
- However, La Course was criticised --> by whom? and when, given that initially there was praise
- Added, some criticism was straight away - but three sources in the article are 2018 and 2021
- Riders and campaigners pushed for La Course to evolve --> when?
- There are sources for this from 2015 onwards (the two in the article are 2018 and 2021)
- mean that a men's and women's Tour de France would not be able to be staged simultaneously --> but no one seemed to have argued for that, so that would not be pushing back
- That was the original push from Le Tour Entier, but I haven't included their detail of exactly what they wanted, too much detail.
- Dutch rider Anna van der Breggen stating --> that's 3 times the verb to state in short succession
- Cecilie Uttrup Ludwig stating --> sorry, 4
- I clearly am afraid of using synonyms! Have amended throughout. Some are still there because they work best!
- "it's long been a dream for many of us to compete in a women's Tour de France" --> add comma: "it's long been a dream for many of us to compete in a women's Tour de France",
- Fixed
- Zwift had signed a four-year agreement to sponsor the race --> what is missing here is the bit about the official name
- Fixed
- The 24 teams which participated in the race[25] were --> why put the ref 25 mid-sentence?
- Fixed
- selected by Amaury Sport Organisation (ASO), the organisers of the Tour --> we already knew that, so just selected by ASO
- Fixed
- selected by --> is anything known about the selection process? Highest bidder?
- nope, literally selected by the organisers!
- covering a total of 1,033 kilometres --> should this not also be mentioned in the lead? The FA 2012 Tour de France does have distance in the lead
- Added
- on the same day as the final stage of the men's tour --> before or after the men's finish? Ah I see that's mentioned later. I would put that here
- Disagree, I feel the wording works better
- Vosges mountains (including the longest, stage 5), and a summit finish on stage 8 at La Super Planche des Belles Filles in the Vosges --> this isn't working for me. That last Vosges thre me, because I thought "stages in the Vosges mountains" already had dealt with that
- Fixed
- including the longest --> repetition including
- Fixed
- as men's Tour de France --> as the men's Tour de France
- Fixed
- as the UCI does not allow women to compete over identical distances as men --> may I suggest to remove this bit and instead add something like "whereas the maxima for men are x km and y days" after the paragraph's 1st sentence
- It's really complicated to explain... the summary of "the UCI does not allow women to compete over identical distances as men" is the simplest way of doing it IMO.
- In the stage characteristics table it is odd to show the riders' nationality instead of their teams. This race is really about team tactics, not like the Olympics. I was surprised by this omission, as the lead rightfully listed the team name of the jersey winners rather than their nationality. But I see that 2012 Tour de France does the same. Was it discussed there? Or also overlooked?
- It's what all the cycling race articles do, so I'm following their practice!
- Paris: Tour Eiffel --> Paris: Eiffel Tower
- The official name of the stage was Tour Eiffel, so no change.
- tipped for the points classification --> tipped for winning the points classification
- Fixed
- The Queen of the Mountains (QoM) classification --> not sure if the classification is the thing being awarded
- Tweaked
- The Queen --> perhaps add something like "similar to King of the Mountains in the men's race"
- Added
- referencing --> this word choice looks a bit odd to me
- Fixed
- was very positive --> given that there was criticism, I would drop the very
- Fixed
- outsprinted Marianne Vos --> link Marianne Vos
- Fixed
- In the final, Vos --> not sure if it is obvious to non-cycling fans what the final is. I would just avoid and simply use "at the finish"
- Fixed
- to take the yellow and green jerseys --> was this straight on time or was there any bonus time involved?
- yes time bonuses and also clarifies
- Femke Gerritse (Parkhotel Valkenburg) took the lead in the Queen of the Mountains (QoM) classification --> remove (QoM) as this abbreviation was already given. One could question the need for QoM at all, if it is not used
- shortened
- her to lose a minute and a half --> just to be clear, I'd say finish a minute and a half after the winner. Or whatever the difference
- Have changed to "lose time" otherwise it's duplicate text
- was the longest of the Women's WorldTour calendar --> was the longest of the 2022 Women's WorldTour calendar
- fixed
- due to bonuses --> is there no place to link to, explaining this?
- Unfortunately not, but I've added a little bit above
- On the descent of the penultimate climb, a small group including Wiebes and Lotte Kopecky (SD Worx) crashed on the descent, --> that's descent twice
- Fixes
- with everyone involved finishing the stage --> but everyone involved ultimately finished the stage
- Fixed
- A group of fourteen riders that --> who instead of that?
- Fixed
- had gained time ahead of the peloton in a breakaway --> "who had been ahead of the peloton"
- Half fixed, leaving breakaway pipe
- by a large group of riders in a bunch sprint --> this makes me think earlier sprints were not bunch sprints. Is that true? If not, the term should be introduced earlier.
- Fixed
- for the stage win as the race headed towards the mountains --> by adding "as the race headed towards the mountains" a non-informed reader may wrongly infer that there are some bonuses given to the winner of the last race prior to the mountains
- Removed
- five category 1 climbs --> is 1 for easy or hard?
- Added wording to route
- eventual winner of the general classification (GC) --> GC was already introduced and used
- Fixed
- 3,000 metres (9,800 ft) of vertical climbing --> isn't climbing by definition vertical?
- Fair point!
- with 86 kilometres (53 mi) remaining, --> for context it would be good to give the length of this stage somewhere
- Added
- ensuring that the yellow jersey --> not necessarily. She could have caught up
- Rephrased
- following her crash on stage 6 --> Given the position of this in the paragraph, I assume she started but then gave up. Perhaps better to provide some description of causality.
- rephrased
- achieved an impressive stage win --> better to use quotes here, otherwise find more neutral words
- rephrased
- Vollering, who took the polka-dot jersey as leader of the QoM --> this is puzzling: how come van Vleuten did not become QoM, as she seemed to get to the tops first?
- while Katarzyna Niewiadoma --> while Niewiadoma
- Fixed
- rounded out the podium --> not sure the tone is right here, sounds more something a fanzine would write
- Fixed
- Vos continued to hold the green jersey --> a little help for the reader would be good, something like "as only x points were awarded in this stage"
- rephrased
- Stage 8 was the second mountain stage --> given that for stage 7 we got the number of meters of climbing, why not here as well?
- stage of the Tour, --> now we have Tour, but earlier we had tour
- Fixed
- The final climb to La Super Planche des Belles Filles was 7 kilometres (4.3 mi) long with an average gradient of 8.7 percent, with the final --> final duplication
- Fixed
- With 57 kilometres (35 mi) to go, --> again, for context, how long was this stage?
- Fixed
- Van Vleuten rejoined the peloton at the foot of the second climb, the Ballon d'Alsace --> this tells the reader little about how long she was behind for, so some km reference would be good
- Fixed
- attacked from the peloton --> I have never heard this expression
- Rephrased
- She passed the remnants of the breakaway --> which breakaway? this was never mentioned
- have added
I'll check the last bit as soon as I can. Edwininlondon (talk) 07:16, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hi Edwininlondon - I'll take a look at this today, there are some great clarifying points in here thank you. I will note that some of this detail was previously cut from the article for being too much detail for summary style! Turini2 (talk) 07:29, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Sorry for the delay. Here is the last batch.
- Why is the results information organised differently from the FA 2012 Tour de France? What that FA does well in Classification leadership and minor prizes is lots of explaining all the classifications and extra info about price money. That FA does nt have reception info, but here I would put that in its own section
- Have added this - thank goodness the relevant regulations are still available - there are no secondary source for this.
- In the final general classification, van Vleuten (Movistar Team) --> is there any kind of rule you're applying when you use GC and when general classification?
- Just that it's a conclusion - so I've just the full wording.
- In the final general classification, van Vleuten (Movistar Team) --> feels repetitive to keep saying which team she is in
- Again, it's because it's the overall conclusion of the race, so it could be a bit that people jump to reading
- In the final general classification, van Vleuten (Movistar Team) won the Tour de France Femmes --> can you really say it like that? How about: In the final general classification, van Vleuten came first
- advantage over Vollering (SD Worx) --> advantage over Vollering
- As above
- of almost four minutes while Niewiadoma was third at more than six and a half minutes down --> of almost four minutes, and of more than six and a half minutes over third-placed Niewiadoma
- Fixed
- Vollering won the mountains classification --> this seems to me the best place to use Queen of the Mountains phrase
- Fixed
- while Vos (Team Jumbo–Visma) won --> while Vos won
- As above
- and the super-combativity award --> should be explained on what basis
- Added
- won the young rider classification --> 2 issues here: 1) the lead explains how this works, so this should be explained here as well 2) the lead mentions the white jersey, so that should be mentioned here as well
- Added
- Her rival Vollering considered that they --> who is they referring to?
- They'd is better?
- fourth-place overall Juliette Labous --> fourth-placed Juliette Labous ?
- fixed
- Cycling Weekly stating --> stating repetition
- Fixed
- and L'Équipe stating --> and again
- Fixed
- Race director Marion Rousse stated
- I left this one :)
- with the 2024 edition of the race set to visit the Alps --> on Sunday this likely will have to go pas tense :)
- changed
- the column headers in the table Classification leadership by stage should all be links, just like the 2012 FA
- Added
- The 2012 FA has links for terms in the Legend table
- Added
- Final general classification (11–109) table width is different from 1-10. Looks broken
- It's because of the longer team names in the 11-109 table, have amended table size so this (and the below text wrapping is fixed)
- + 1 h 00 min 49" --> + 1 h 00 min 49 s
- Fixed
- + 1 h 01 min 01 s --> for me, from here on the text in each row starts wrapping. This could easily be fixed
- As above
- in the young rider table, number 8 has a slower time than number 9?
- Wrong way round! Fixed
- This is just under half the audience of the men's tour --> I would use past tense and give the 2022 year
- Fixed
- The 2012 FA has a section UCI World Tour rankings: does this not exist for the women?
- It does... but the data and sourcing on it is incredibly poor/hard to find. The best I've done in the past is reference who the new leader of the UCI Women's WorldTour is!
That's it for now. Edwininlondon (talk) 09:52, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Some comments and fixes made, will come back to this later Turini2 (talk) 13:59, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Edwininlondon believe these are all resolved, or have explanations why I disagree! Turini2 (talk) 21:04, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
I had another look at the lead. Found the following:
- make a redirect for 2022 Tour de France Femmes avec Zwift
- (officially Tour de France Femmes avec Zwift) --> (officially 2022 Tour de France Femmes avec Zwift)
- Various cycling races have been held as an equivalent to the Tour de France for women ... by the public, media, teams, and riders. --> May I suggest a bit tighter paragraph: Starting in 1955, various cycling races for women have been held similar to the Tour de France for men, under different names (for example, Tour de France Féminin, Grande Boucle Féminine Internationale, La Course by Le Tour de France). Many of these were one-day races, unlike the three-weeks races for the men. The first edition of Tour de France Femmes followed years of campaigning by the women's professional peloton for an equivalent race to the men's Tour de France. The race drew large crowds, had substantial international media coverage, and was highly praised by the public, media, teams, and riders. And then add the 3 week men's race to the Background section + source.
- (French: maillot jaune) --> I don't see the value of adding this. It is never used again. And no other term is given in French. I would remove it.
- who put in a consistent performance during the first six stages and finished in the top five on both mountain stages --> this is not menioned in the body of the article
- following consistent stage finishes --> Not quite right: if she had been consistently last, she would not have gained many points. Plus where is this mentioned in the body of the article?
- Canyon–SRAM won the team classification --> Canyon–SRAM should not be linked, was already linked
I will have a 2nd run through the body as soon as I can. Edwininlondon (talk) 19:12, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Most changes made, with some tweaks to lead wording.
- I haven't redirected the race + sponsor name, I didn't think that was the done thing for sporting events - e.g. FA 2008 Japanese Grand Prix does not have a 2008 Formula 1 Fuji Television Japanese Grand Prix redirect, FA 2017 EFL Trophy final isn't 2017 Checkatrade Trophy final etc. Turini2 (talk) 10:14, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- If I read WP:REDIR correctly, there really should be a redirect for this more specific form of the name. Looks like an oversight at the other FAs to me. But I'm happy to let this go. No users will be hurt.
- and to shorter duration --> to does not look right to me
- position she'd maintained --> MOS:CONTRACTIONS
- she'd maintained throughout the race --> this is still not what the body says. Everything in the lead should come from the body. I don't think you need to say this; there is no info in the lead about how number 1 and 2 did throughout the race either.
- following consistent stage finishes --> this is still not what the body says: nothing about Vos in stage 3 or 4. I would rephrase
- and two stage wins in the early part of the race --> stage 6 is not the early part of the race. Plus I only now notice that the section Early stages goes all the way to 6 out of 8. That does not look right.
- first taking place in 1903.[2] It takes place --> repetition
- From 1984, a women's Tour de France was staged consistently --> is this really true? From the text it seems there was no race in 1990 and 1991. Nor in 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013
- took place prior to the final stage of the men's race in Paris.[13] Between 2014 and 2021, La Course took place --> repetition
- with sponsors welcoming --> the previous sentence has the same with ..ing construction, which feels repetitive. Please check the rest as well, as you really seem to favour this construction.
- ASO noted that logistical issues mean that a men's and women's Tour de France would not be able to be staged simultaneously --> ASO noted that they were unable to stage a men's and women's Tour de France simultaneously due to logistical issues
- The first edition was be held --> grammar
- Cecilie Uttrup Ludwig stating --> Cecilie Uttrup Ludwig commenting --see MOS:SAY
- A group of fourteen riders --> above you have All 14, so as per MOS:NUM change one
- Stages 7 and 8 took place in the Vosges --> unlink Vosges
- of climbing including the Grand Ballon --> of climbing, including on the Grand Ballon
- ensuring that the yellow jersey would change hands at the end of the day --> still not right. It does not ensure this.
- the second climb of the day --> now I'm confused: There is the first climb, which is unnamed. Then there is the Petit Ballon, which is a mountain, so should be the 2nd. So isn't Col du Platzerwasel the 3rd climb?
- 3rd place --> MOS:ORDINAL
- remnants of the breakaway --> remnants of the breakaway group
- As I asked above, why is the results information organised differently from the FA 2012 Tour de France? It seems odd to have a section called Results and recption, and then another section called Classification leadership. The first paragraph of Results and reception and the content in Classification leadership really belong together. I would follow as much as possible what 2012 TdF is doing, and then add a separate Reception section
- Last bit I will check later, asap. Edwininlondon (talk) 16:44, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- after finishing in the top five on the first six stages --> the reader will infer that this is the reason to win the award, but that is a bit misleading. I would explain that a jury does it based on x y z, like you now have in the section below (which is why I think these 2 sections should merge). But if you do not want to do that, I would leave it out instead of repeating.
- Her rival Vollering considered that they'd performed --> 2 issues: MOS:CONTRACTION and it is unclear who they is referring to. Is it not simply "she had performed"? Isn't she just talking about herself?
- Worldwide media coverage praised the event,[74][75] with CNN calling the race a "rebirth",[76] Cycling Weekly commented --> grammatical issue here, which I would fix this way: Worldwide media coverage praised the event.[74][75] CNN called the race a "rebirth",[76] Cycling Weekly commented
- 2024 edition of the race visited the Alps --> 2024 edition visited the Alps
- The climbs were categorised as fourth-, third-, second- or first-category --> earlier you use a different notation: category 4. Consistency is better
- with the more difficult climbs rated lower. --> just be explicit: category 4 being the easiest and category 1 the hardest.
- I would also say something here about with hors catégorie, which was introduced already in the route section, even though there isn't one. This detailed section has all the rules, so might as well add.
- Fourth-category awarded 2 riders, the first with 2 points; with 1 point; third-category awarded 3 riders, the first with 3 points; second-category awarded 4 riders, the first with 5 points; and first-category awarded 6 riders, the first with 10 points. -->MOS:NUM defifintely change the numbers for the riders. Plus there is an error in first bit. I would leave the points numbers. So Category 4 awarded two riders, the first with 2 points, and the second with 1 point; category 3 awarded three riders, the first with 3 points; category 2 awarded four riders, the first with 5 points; and category 1 awarded six riders, the first with 10 points.
- was restricted to riders who under the age of 23 --> apart from the fact this is not grammatical, the source says nées depuis le 1er janvier 2000, and this is how the 2012 FA avoids ambiguity as well.
- The leader wore a white and violet jersey --> In the lead and elsewhere it is pure white.
- yellow number bibs on the back of their jerseys.[88] --> no yellow helmets?
- At the conclusion of the Tour, the jury awards--> why present tense? everything was past tense
- + 1 h 00 min 49 s --> the issue with s was fixed here but now there is a new formatting problem: it sticks out
- over the 8 stages --> MOS:NUM
- France 3, RTVE and SBS --> France 3, RTVE, and SBS
- In France, France 3 --> delink
- Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:13, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
Jozo Tomasevich was a Yugoslav-American economist and historian whose works on Yugoslavia in WWII continue to be widely cited today despite his first book on the Chetniks being published nearly fifty years ago. According to the German historian Klaus Schmider, it is a tragedy that he died before completing the third volume of his planned series on Yugoslavia in WWII which was to be focussed on the Partisans. Even his second volume had to be published posthumously in 2001, with editing by his daughter. I have used his works right across my WP contributions on WWII on Yugoslavia, and his work forms the foundation on which many more recent historians have built. This is my second nom of a historian of WWII in Yugoslavia after Radoje Pajović. Have at it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:13, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
Image review
- Suggest adding alt text. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:14, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
- Done, thanks. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:59, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
Matarisvan
[edit]Hi Peacemaker67, some comments:
- "the former Yugoslavia": just "Yugoslavia" would be fine, no?
- yes, fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:56, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
- Why is SFSU linked in the lead on second use and not first?
- Good question. Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:56, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
- Perhaps clarify that The Chetniks was part of the 3 volume series and not a standalone book? I thought so till I read the Biblio section.
- Is "so-called" really needed? We have to be neutral and we already say it was a puppet state. Consider removing in the lead and the body?
- Actually it is necessary in my opinion, as it was named that, but ironically far from independent. Tomasevich himself called it an Italo-German quasi-protectorate. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:23, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
- "Klaus Schimder, the RMAS lecturer": Use "a" instead of "the"? I'm assuming Schmider was not the only lecturer at the RMAS.
- Yep, whoops. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:35, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure about this, but wouldn't the Mihailović picture be better placed at the start of the World War II subsection?
- Good call, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:38, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
- Consider adding the ISBN for Tomasevich and Vucinich 1969. Is this the one: 9780520015364? Also, Google Books shows Vucinich here was an editor and not an author.
- Done. No, Google Books is often wrong about such things, Vucinich was the author of two chapters as well as the editor. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:30, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- Link to The American Historical Review and Nationalities Papers, as done for other journals?
- Are there any details on his collaboration with Wayne Vucinich?
- Not beyond him contributing a chapter to the book. They taught at different universities in California and I understand they were close colleagues and co-received an award in 1989, and I'd love to know more given the Vucinich brothers were Serbs and Tomasevich a Croat, but they appear to have got along very well. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:30, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure military biography is the right WPMH task force here, you should consider removing it and retaining only the historiography task force tag.
- Excellent point, he was not a military person. Removed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:30, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- Has anyone endeavored to publish the Tomasevic papers at HILA or Volume 3 of his series? I found one article on this from the Washington Post but it was paywalled.
- Not that I'm aware of. It would be wonderful if Vol 3 was published. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:35, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
That's all from me, cheers Matarisvan (talk) 12:39, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks so much for taking a look, Matarisvan. I reckon I might have addressed all your comments. See what you think? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:30, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- Hi @Peacemaker67, above comments all OK. A minor issue I forgot to spot last time: we need page numbers for a couple of the sources, namely Baletić 1997, Prosecutor versus Vojislav Šešelj 2008, Irwin 2000, Auty 1976, Dragnich 1976 and Campbell 1976. The other sources are only one pagers, so those don't have any problems, but these one have multiple pages, so you will need to add the page numbers for them. Matarisvan (talk) 08:31, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- G'day Matarisvan. Strictly speaking, the short "review" citations do not need a page, as the page range given in the long citation is only 2-3 pages long, and anyone wishing to verify them need only read a page or two, and in any case their comments should be read in the context of the whole review. I have added pages for the Baletić and Prosecutor vs Vojislav Šešelj short citations, as they are longer pieces of work. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:02, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Hi @Peacemaker67, above comments all OK. A minor issue I forgot to spot last time: we need page numbers for a couple of the sources, namely Baletić 1997, Prosecutor versus Vojislav Šešelj 2008, Irwin 2000, Auty 1976, Dragnich 1976 and Campbell 1976. The other sources are only one pagers, so those don't have any problems, but these one have multiple pages, so you will need to add the page numbers for them. Matarisvan (talk) 08:31, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
- Hi Matarisvan, I was wondering if you felt in a position to either support or oppose this nomination? Obviously, neither is obligatory. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:06, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Hi @Gog the Mild, I just had one suggestion to add for @Peacemaker67. I think the following categories could be added here:
- Category:Stanford University staff, Category:Harvard University alumni, Category:Yugoslav historians; Category:Yugoslav officials of the United Nations or Category:American officials of the United Nations, whichever one is best suited; Category:Federal Reserve Bank people or Category:Federal Reserve economists, the latter one only if we're sure he was an economist at the Fed, we don't have any details on his role there in the article, if not then the first one works too. Matarisvan (talk) 13:27, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Also, I forgot these two: Category:ACLS Fellows and Category:People from Palo Alto, California. The last one can be added here as his obituary says he lived in Palo Alto for 48 years. Matarisvan (talk) 13:33, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- G'day Matarisvan, sorry about the delay. I think I have completed all these now. It isn't clear whether he was US or Yugoslav at the UN, so I went for a different cat. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:56, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Happy to now support for promotion to FA class. Matarisvan (talk) 03:45, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- G'day Matarisvan, sorry about the delay. I think I have completed all these now. It isn't clear whether he was US or Yugoslav at the UN, so I went for a different cat. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:56, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
Comments Support by Pendright
[edit]Placeholder - Pendright (talk) 21:00, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
Lead:
- Tomasevich was born in the Kingdom of Dalmatia, [then] part of Austria-Hungary, and after completing his [formal] schooling
,[he] earned a doctorate in economicsat[from] the University of Basel in Switzerland.
- Look these changes over
- His final book was the second volume of the series – War and Revolution in Yugoslavia 1941–1945: Occupation and Collaboration – which was published posthumously in 2001 after editing by his daughter Neda.
- after usually means -> in the time following an event or another period <-> in which case, it soumds like the book was edited after its publication - what am I missing?
- In an obituary in the Slavic Review, Tomasevich was described as "a master of scholarly skills, a person of bountiful erudition, wit and human dignity".
- Why is an not his?
- All done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:46, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
Early life
- Košarni Do is a hamlet of Donja Banda and is today part of the Orebić municipality within the Dubrovnik-Neretva County of Croatia.[1]
- today?
- Changed to "now". Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:53, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- <>I hate quibbling further, but now means at the present time, at this moment or very soon. So, how about dropping the word, or replacing it with something like this: -> Košarni Do is a hamlet of Donja Banda and in (year) became part of the Orebić municipality within the Dubrovnik-Neretva County of Croatia. Pendright (talk) 22:00, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- I don't know when the village became a part of the municipality, and now means at the present time. This is accurate at the present time. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:13, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- <>I hate quibbling further, but now means at the present time, at this moment or very soon. So, how about dropping the word, or replacing it with something like this: -> Košarni Do is a hamlet of Donja Banda and in (year) became part of the Orebić municipality within the Dubrovnik-Neretva County of Croatia. Pendright (talk) 22:00, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Changed to "now". Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:53, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- today?
- Nado returned to the village in 1894, [and he] married the daughter of his first cousin and worked as a farmer.
- Suggest these changes
- In 1938, he was the recipient of a two-year Rockefeller fellowship and moved to the US,[3] thereby "availing himself of the rich resources of Harvard University".
- "availing himself of the rich resources of Harvard University" -> If this is a direct quote, should there be attribution-if not, then should italics be used?
- Quotes don't have to be attributed, just closely cited. In this case, it is, to Vucinich. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:53, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- <>Interesting! You can further my education by referring me to something authoritative on the subject. Pendright (talk) 22:10, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- MOS:QUOTE#Attribution. This is not an opinion quote which would require attribution to Vucinich. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- <>Thank you! Pendright (talk) 22:34, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- MOS:QUOTE#Attribution. This is not an opinion quote which would require attribution to Vucinich. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- <>Interesting! You can further my education by referring me to something authoritative on the subject. Pendright (talk) 22:10, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Quotes don't have to be attributed, just closely cited. In this case, it is, to Vucinich. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:53, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- "availing himself of the rich resources of Harvard University" -> If this is a direct quote, should there be attribution-if not, then should italics be used?
- The other brother living in Košarni Do received the share of the fourth brother who, by then, was a merchant mariner living in New Zealand.[4]
- Could drop "other"
- I'm not sure I can. There were two brothers living in Košarni Do, and "other" indicates that this is not the one who received Jozo's share of the farm. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:53, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Could drop "other"
of World War II – and now known by the anglicised Tomasevich – he moved to California.
- and then known
- In 1937, Tomasevich married Neda Brelić, a high school teacher. They were happily married for 57 years and had three children – Anthony, Neda Ann, and Lasta. In 1976, Tomasevich contributed an essay to a book in which he conducted a sociological and historical analysis of his extended family reaching back to the early nineteenth century.
- Somehow,Chronologically, these sentences seem out of order?
- Not really. He married, they had children, then he wrote a essay about his family history. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:53, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- <>He was married in 1937 and moved to the U.S. in 1938? In any case, it's your call.
- Not really. He married, they had children, then he wrote a essay about his family history. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:53, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Somehow,Chronologically, these sentences seem out of order?
- His widow Neda died on July 5, 2002, at 88.[8]
- Is where she died relative?
- I don't think so, although it was Palo Alto, like Jozo. Do you think it needs to be added? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:53, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- <>Probably a matter of opinion. Pendright (talk) 22:33, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- OK, I've added it for completeness. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- <>Probably a matter of opinion. Pendright (talk) 22:33, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think so, although it was Palo Alto, like Jozo. Do you think it needs to be added? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:53, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
- Is where she died relative?
Yugoslavia's economy
- The first appeared in German in 1934 and was titled Die Staatsschulden Jugoslaviens (The National Debt of Yugoslavia).
- during 1934
- The following year, he had Financijska politika Jugoslavije, 1929–1934 (Fiscal Policy of Yugoslavia, 1929–1934) published in Serbo-Croatian, covering much of the same material but more accessible to Yugoslavs.[1]
- Does 1929-1934 need to be repeated?
- which covered
- A 1940 review of the book in Weltwirtschaftliches Archiv, by Professor Mirko Lamer – who later served with the United Nations as an expert at the Food and Agriculture Organization – described Novac i kredit as an important work that filled a large gap in Yugoslav economic literature, and also gave a vivid picture of then-current economic theory.[9]
- and it also
- These all done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:19, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- and it also
International marine resources and Yugoslav peasants
- The first [book] was International Agreements on Preservation of Marine Resources
,[that was] published by Stanford University Press in 1943.
- Suggest the above changes
- The second book, Peasants, Politics, and Economic Change in Yugoslavia [was] published in 1955,
was[and] described by Vucinich as "a study of monumental scope [which] has been widely recognized as the most comprehensive and accomplished study in the field".
- Suggest the above changes
- These are done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:22, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Suggest the above changes
World War II
- In 1957, Tomasevich received a San Francisco State University grant for Slavic and Eastern European studies.[12]
- Suggest -> In 1957, Tomasevich received a grant from San Francisco State University for Slavic and Eastern European studies.[12]
- The first volume focused on the Chetnik movement led by Draža Mihailović, which was subtitled The Chetniks and appeared in 1975.
- In the context used, what does appeared mean?
- Soon after it was published, the book was reviewed by Phyllis Auty, professor of modern history at Simon Fraser University.
- Replace the comma with "who was a
- The third volume in the planned trilogy, which was to cover the Partisans, was 75 per cent complete at the time of his death,[1] and remains unpublished.
- and it
@Peacemaker67: This is it for now. Pendright (talk) 03:22, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- All done I think. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:45, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks Pendright, I may have addressed all your comments now. Let me know if anything needs tweaking or you see anything else. As always, thanks for your detailed review. Regards, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:45, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Peacemaker: Supporting - it's always a pleasure working with you. Pendright (talk) 22:34, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- All done I think. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:45, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Peacemaker67, nudge. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:07, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
Comments from Hurricanehink
[edit]I figured I'd review this considering I have an FAC of my own.
- Could you add a caption for the infobox image?
- Other than his name, there is really nothing to add. We don't know when it was taken, photos of him are quite rare. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:02, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Google says Jozo's birthday is March 16, 1908, but there's nothing in this article. Any reason for not including the birth date?
- lack of a reliable source. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:43, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- "Between 1943 and 1955, Tomasevich published two books on economic matters; one focused on marine resources and the other on the peasant economy of Yugoslavia and both of them received positive reviews." - the last part seems like an add-on, and makes the sentence a bit too long. Perhaps - "Tomasevich published two well-received books on economic matters"?
- I went with "positively received" as "well-received" is used earlier. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:46, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- The book was positively reviewed, and twenty-five years later was described as still the "most complete and best book about the Chetniks to be published either abroad or in former Yugoslavia" - the quote doesn't seem important for lead. First, it's unattributed - I see in the body of the text that it was from the Croatian historian Ivo Goldstein, but that doesn't mean his quote should be in the lead. Could you write the same meaning without the quote?
- I think it is important for the lead. T's contribution in this area is key to his impact, and Goldstein is eminent. Given it is an opinion, I have attributed it to him. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:55, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- the so-called Independent State of Croatia. - "so-called" seems a bit biased and pointy for my liking. Could you word it differently?
- it is often described in this way (eg by the US Holocaust Memorial Museum and others), as ironically it was far from "independent", being essentially an occupied quasi-protectorate propped up by large numbers of Axis troops. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:07, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- But not on Wikipedia. I would rather "Axis-aligned" or something, since "so-called" is too biased for my liking. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:28, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- OK, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:04, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- But not on Wikipedia. I would rather "Axis-aligned" or something, since "so-called" is too biased for my liking. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:28, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- it is often described in this way (eg by the US Holocaust Memorial Museum and others), as ironically it was far from "independent", being essentially an occupied quasi-protectorate propped up by large numbers of Axis troops. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:07, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- "remains unpublished despite being 75 per cent complete at his death." - is there a reason you don't write it as 75%?
- Per MOS:PERCENT, in non-scientific articles either is fine. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:55, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- You mention Jozo's father's name, but what about mother?
- An excellent question, I am popping into the library tomorrow to look at a source that might have it, but failing that, it isn't in any RS I am aware of. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:13, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- No, I cannot find a RS for either of their given names, Nado is a nickname, I've clarified the latter and its meaning. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:12, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- An excellent question, I am popping into the library tomorrow to look at a source that might have it, but failing that, it isn't in any RS I am aware of. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:13, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- "Jozo completed his secondary education in Sarajevo – then part of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia – before moving to Switzerland to study at the University of Basel where he earned a doctorate in economics. " - when? This is a pretty important part of his life that you glossed over. Is there anything more about this part of his life?
- Just waiting on a source that might help with this, no more than a couple of days. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:12, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Have been able to locate a bit more on this period of his life, added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:45, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Just waiting on a source that might help with this, no more than a couple of days. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:12, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- thereby "availing himself of the rich resources of Harvard University" - who said this?
- it is cited to Vucinich. Given it isn't an opinion, it doesn't need in-text attribution, just close citation, which it has. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:15, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- "Rich resources" is an opinion. The rest of the article says "According to Vucinich". ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:46, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- "Rich resources" is an opinion? I would say it is WP:BLUE. Who would challenge the idea that Harvard has "rich resources"? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:45, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- "Rich resources" is an opinion. The rest of the article says "According to Vucinich". ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:46, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- it is cited to Vucinich. Given it isn't an opinion, it doesn't need in-text attribution, just close citation, which it has. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:15, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- You mention the siblings, but never by name. Any reason?
- They aren't provided in any RS I'm aware of. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:12, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Some more year/date references would be nice for "Early life" section. For example, "After the war, he initially worked at the Federal Reserve Bank in San Francisco." - When?
- I've added a bit on this where it was available. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:12, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- And a bit more timeframe information from a newly-located source. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:45, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've added a bit on this where it was available. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:12, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- "Before the outbreak of World War II – and then known by the anglicised Tomasevich – he moved to California." - again, when? The war broke out in 1939, so there could be a variety of dates.
- The source that might provide some answers is at a local university library which I will be able to look at over the next few days. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:53, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Any update? ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:46, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- I've reworded this based on the dates of his Rockefeller fellowship documentation which indicate about when the name change occurred. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:45, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Any update? ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:46, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- The source that might provide some answers is at a local university library which I will be able to look at over the next few days. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:53, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- When did Jozo meet Neda Brelić? For a marriage of 57 years, there's very little on that.
- Not known. It appears he was quite reticent about this personal life. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:53, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- "He became an American citizen." - when?
- Not known. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:53, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- What did Jozo die from?
- Not known. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:53, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
The article is fine, but it seems to focus too much on what other people think about his writings, and too little about his actual life. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:50, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- There are still a lot of unknown parts, which I'm not a huge fan of, like when American citizenship happened, what he died from, any siblings' names, the mother's name, when he went to SF, even the birthday. I get that a lot of this information isn't available, but it's a shame when you Google his birthday, and it says "March 16", but that there's no reliable source for it. The article is decent, for sure, but it's a shame that so much is unknown. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:46, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Peacemaker67 ? Gog the Mild (talk) 12:08, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- In terms of a response to Hurricanehink's post-review summary, unfortunately Tomasevich was not very forthcoming about his family details in general and even in the chapter he wrote for Byrnes' book (perhaps for privacy reasons given it was during communist times), and neither was his obituarian, Alexander Vucinich, who must have known him and his family well. Given that, and because his notability relates to his work rather than his family, I think I can be forgiven for not being able to find any of these family details. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:42, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've responded to a few of the above to clarify what I have been able to add. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:45, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- In terms of a response to Hurricanehink's post-review summary, unfortunately Tomasevich was not very forthcoming about his family details in general and even in the chapter he wrote for Byrnes' book (perhaps for privacy reasons given it was during communist times), and neither was his obituarian, Alexander Vucinich, who must have known him and his family well. Given that, and because his notability relates to his work rather than his family, I think I can be forgiven for not being able to find any of these family details. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:42, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Peacemaker67 ? Gog the Mild (talk) 12:08, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
Comments by Joy
[edit]Since the name is only partially anglicized, it might make sense to figure out what was the pronunciation. We don't happen to have one at Jozo, while we do have one at Josip, but in case of Tomasevich it would specifically make sense to note how the Americans pronounced his first name because it's not clear it would have been the same as the original. --Joy (talk) 20:22, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
- I think it was, but don't have any evidence for my opinion. I'll see if I can find some. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:38, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Sadly, Joy, I have drawn a blank here. It would be great to find a video where an American historian (like one of the Vucinich's) pronounce his name, but I haven't been able to locate one. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:05, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- No problem, we can leave a note to this effect on the Talk page for later. --Joy (talk) 11:26, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Sadly, Joy, I have drawn a blank here. It would be great to find a video where an American historian (like one of the Vucinich's) pronounce his name, but I haven't been able to locate one. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:05, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
Coordinator note
[edit]As this nomination has been open for five weeks and has yet to garner support, it is liable to be archived in the next few days unless there's a pickup in activity. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 18:12, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks David. I've been out of town, but have now addressed the first two reviews and have a crack at HH's shortly. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:39, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- Just working through the remaining comments over the next few days. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:13, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Comments by Tomobe03
[edit]- I may be nitpicking here, but the first paragraph of the Early life, education, career and family section and the first sentence of the second paragraph of the same section may give impression to casual readers that Austria-Hungary and Yugoslavia existed at the same time.
- No, that's a fair call. Have added a better explanation. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:47, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
In "His widow Neda died in Palo Alto..." I'm wondering if either "his widow" or "Neda" is redundant because she's already introduced in the same paragraph as his wife.Striking this, as I realise that he had a daughter of the same name.- Regarding Financijska politika Jugoslavije (Fiscal Policy of Yugoslavia) - is that the English translation of the title the book is known as generally? I'd expect Fiscal Policy of Yugoslavia to be translation of "Fiskalna politika Jugoslavije"... or that the English translation of the title is "Financial Policy of Yugoslavia". That is, of course unless the offered English translation is common translation of the title.
- Doh, well spotted, not sure what I did there. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:11, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Overall, I'd say the article appears comprehensive, i.e. I feel I have no question to ask that is not already answered by the prose.--Tomobe03 (talk) 16:46, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- There's a mention of Peasants, Politics, and Economic Change in Yugoslavia in Splivalo, Josip (1958). "Naučno djelo našeg profesora u Americi" [Scientific Work of Our Professor in America]. Naše more (in Croatian). 5 (1). University of Dubrovnik: 52. ISSN 0469-6255. The short article might be illuminating because it says that the book consists of three parts. The first one provides a review of historical development of of Yugoslav peoples and their common characteristics in economics. The second part reviews agriculture during the WWI and the third one examines agriculture in the interwar period. The review of historical development gives (at least to me) an impression that there's the point where Tomasevich's interest started crossing from economics alone to history. The article also indicates that Joseph S. Davis wrote a foreword for the book.--Tomobe03 (talk) 08:50, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks so much for spotting that, added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:11, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- All done I think, Tomobe03. Thanks for taking a look! Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:11, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- No problem. Happy to support.Tomobe03 (talk) 19:57, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- All done I think, Tomobe03. Thanks for taking a look! Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:11, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks so much for spotting that, added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:11, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
SC
[edit]Review to follow shortly. - SchroCat (talk) 07:00, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- There are two ellipses that should have non-breaking spaces before the ..., per WP:ELLIPSES
- Fixed, thanks. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Lead
- "a master of scholarly skills": as this is a quote it should be cited, per MOS:LEADCITE
- Well, I could, but I think "The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus" applies here, given the quote is cited and attributed in-text in the body, and no-one else has raised it, I really don't think it is necessary here. I'd be happy to attribute it in-text in the lead as well if that would make you more comfortable? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'll leave it to your judgement. I suspect that when this hits the front page people may make waves about it, but it's your call. - SchroCat (talk) 10:03, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Well, I could, but I think "The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus" applies here, given the quote is cited and attributed in-text in the body, and no-one else has raised it, I really don't think it is necessary here. I'd be happy to attribute it in-text in the lead as well if that would make you more comfortable? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Early life
- "He became an American citizen": any date on this?
- I wish. No, I had to find an oblique reference to it in a war crimes trial transcript after failing to find a direct source. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- It feels odd to have a section titled "early life" that ends with his death age 88. Maybe just call the section 'private life' or similar
- Well, it has education, career and family in the title and section as well, not just "private life". I could add "death" to the end? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- That, I think, may be a bit of overkill. Again, I'll leave to to your best judgement. - SchroCat (talk) 10:03, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Well, it has education, career and family in the title and section as well, not just "private life". I could add "death" to the end? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Legacy
- "a master of scholarly skills – needs a closing quote mark
- Well spotted, fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
That's the lot: very minor stuff in a very readable article - SchroCat (talk) 07:54, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking a look, SchroCat and sorry about the delay in getting to your comments. See what you think of the above and my changes. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Peacemaker67 ? It's been a couple of weeks. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks Gog, I've been hunting a source to try to address a few comments, but will just get on with what I can do now. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:43, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Peacemaker67 ? It's been a couple of weeks. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support - SchroCat (talk) 10:03, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Comments by RoySmith
[edit]I took a look at some sources:
Josip "Jozo" Tomašević was born in 1908 in the village of Košarni Do on the Pelješac peninsula in the Kingdom of Dalmatia , which was then part of Austria-Hungary . [1]
probably a nit, but the source doesn't categorize Dalmatia as a "Kingdom", nor does it say anything about Austria-Hungary.
- I think it's a nit. I'm working on the basis of WP:BLUE here. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Košarni Do is a hamlet of Donja Banda and is now part of the Orebić municipality within the Dubrovnik-Neretva County of Croatia . [1]
I'm guessing you've just got the wrong citation because the source doesnt say any of those things.
- Yep, I have added citations to the Croatian post office website which details the local government status of these places within the county. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Before the outbreak of World War II – and then known by the anglicised Tomasevich – he moved to California. He was on the scholarly staff of the Food Research Institute within Stanford University . During the war, he worked with the Board of Economic Warfare [1] ... After the war, he initially worked at the Federal Reserve Bank in San Francisco
. The source says
so I'm a little concerned about WP:CLOP. I get that much of this is just a chronological history and full of proper names, but it still seems a bit too close to the original. Also, while the source does use the spelling "Tomasevich", I think it's a bit of WP:SYNTH to say "then known by the anglicised ...".Before World War II he moved to California where he was a member of the scholarly staff of the Food Research Institute at Stanford University. During World War II he was affiliated successively with the Board of Economic Warfare and UNRRA in Washington, DC. After the war he was with the Federal Reserve Bank in San Francisco.
- I've changed wording here, hopefully enough. Also, I've found a ref for a year by which he was definitely using the anglicised name, the Rockefeller fellowship in 1950, and have added that. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:03, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
and then the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration in Washington, D.C. from 1944 to 1946. After the war, he initially worked at the Federal Reserve Bank in San Francisco. [1] [7]
Maybe I'm just not familiar with how harvard refs work, but I had to dive into the wikisource to figure out that OAC meant "Online Archives of California". And once I got there, it doesn't say anything about Washington, D.C.
- Harv footnotes can be shortened for brevity. If you click on it, it takes you to the footnote list and if you click that it takes you to the full citation. There is no requirement for the footnote tag to be the full name of the organisation. I've tweaked the wording and added a citation to the UNRRA that says its HQ was in DC. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:52, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
His preference was for a position combining teaching and research, so in 1948 he joined the San Francisco State College (later San Francisco State University). Tomasevich taught there for twenty-five years until he retired in 1973 – except in 1954 when he taught at Columbia University . [1]
The source says
This seems like CLOP again. I wasn't sure about this so I asked for a second opinion from my wife (who writes and reviews scientific papers professionally). She agrees that while it's not word-for-word, its the same sentence and paragraph structure with just a few words changed here or there, which is, as WP:CLOP puts it, "superficial modification of material from another source".Preferring a professional assignment combining teaching and research, he joined San Francisco State College—now San Francisco State University—in 1948 and stayed there until his retirement in 1973. In 1954 he taught at Columbia University for one year.
- I get what you are saying, but there are only so many ways to present the same factual information about his work. I have attempted to move it a bit more away from the source formulation. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:30, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
In 1937, Tomasevich married Neda Brelić, a high school teacher. They were happily married for 57 years and had three children – Anthony, Neda Ann, and Lasta. In 1976, Tomasevich contributed an essay to a book in which he conducted a sociological and historical analysis of his extended family reaching back to the early nineteenth century. He became an American citizen. [9]
This appears to be mis-cited; it's in [1], not [9].
- Not sure what happened there, cited to Vucinich, the citizenship is the only bit that should be cited to the trial case. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:30, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
I'm going to stop at this point. Most of the sources used are off-line, which is fine. But in almost every case, when I spot-checked a source that was available to me, I found problems. This does not give me confidence that the rest of the sourcing is correct. Perhaps I'm just being too picky, so maybe somebody else should do some more spot-checking.
Here's some more:
Tomasevich died ... in Palo Alto, California.[10]
The source just says he was a resident of Palo Alto, not that he died there.
- Fixed, also for his wife. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
A 1940 review of the book in Weltwirtschaftliches Archiv , by Professor Mirko Lamer – who later served with the United Nations as an expert at the Food and Agriculture Organization ... [12]
This is not in English so I'm unable to read it, but I'd wager that a review written by Lamer in 1940 says nothing about Lamer's future employment.
- Yes, added a citation. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:05, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
The first book was International Agreements on Preservation of Marine Resources , that was published by Stanford University Press in 1943 ... [1]
The cited source says 1949. WorldCat does indeed say 1943, but you're not citing WorldCat.
- Replaced citation with Tomasevich 1943. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:30, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
Soon after it was published, the book was reviewed by Phyllis Auty , who was a professor of modern history at Simon Fraser University ... [16]
The source does identify Auty as being from Simon Fraser University, but doesn't say anything about being a "professor of modern history".
- Added a citation from her obit in The Independent which shows her role there at the time. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:30, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
The third volume in the planned trilogy ... and it remains unpublished. [22]
Nit: this should be qualified with {{asof}}.
- This is rather difficult to cite, as I am trying to prove a negative. I'm going to leave it as is. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:30, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks Roy, I really must have been tired when I wrote some of this. I will get on to addressing these comments in the next day or so. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:44, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hi RoySmith, I am assuming that this constitutes a source review? Ta. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:16, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- I would call it a source-to-text spot check. I was mostly looking for WP:V issues. If I spotted any copying problems along the way, I brought those up too, but they weren't my main focus. I believe what you're talking about as a "source review" is more about formatting, consistency, and style which you may have noticed by now aren't what excites me, so I'll leave that stuff to somebody else. RoySmith (talk) 00:53, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Fair enough RoySmith, thanks. In the light of Peaacemaker's responses would you consider the spot check a pass or a fail? Gog the Mild (talk) 20:55, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm in a quandry how to answer that. The important issues have all be resolved. Some of the items I noted above were nits. I recognize that I let my personal preferences show through in a few places and agree that WP:FACR has been satisfied in all of those instances.
- Where the quandry comes in is that if the spot-check is supposed to be a statistical sampling, I'd have to say that I found more problems in my sample that I should have, and since I restricted my sample to those sources that were available to me on line, it's reasonable to ask whether the sources that were not available to me would also have the same failure rate. I hesitate to speak for @Jo-Jo Eumerus, but it sounds like he agrees with me on that.
- So, let me propose that @Peacemaker67 take some time to review the sources on his own, and when he tells me he's satisfied they're in good shape, I'll pick 5 more at random, concentrating on those that are not available to me on-line and ask him to send me scans (or whatever) and I'll verify those. RoySmith (talk) 14:59, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- That is very reasonable. Give me a few days to check everything. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:00, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think that's sound logic. When a sample of 10 out of e.g 100 sources shows that 7 sources have problems, that implies that of the 100 sources about 70 might have problems and thus all 100 need to be reviewed. That said, when evaluating offline sources I've found that asking the nominator to send screenshots or photos of the source by email or Google Drive usually works. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 05:57, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- Status on this, Peacemaker67? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 17:02, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Working, nearly done. Give me 24-48 hours and I'll be ready for Roy to take another look. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:49, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- Works for me. My hope is that I don't find any problems, and if it takes a bit of extra time to get to that point, that's still a win as far as I'm concerned. RoySmith (talk) 18:18, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- G'day RoySmith. I reckon I might have got through it all now, sorry for the delay. I made a few changes where the wording might have been a bit close to the original, even to my German translations, so hopefully all will be well. I also added a few closer citations and deleted a sentence fragment that seemed superfluous. If you can't access any of the sources, please ping me and I'll email them to you. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:44, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks. I'll work on this in the next few days. RoySmith (talk) 18:27, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Peacemaker67 OK, partly done; no significant issues found so far. Could you send me Violich 1998 and Sanders 1956? RoySmith (talk) 23:56, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Peacemaker67 Just want to make sure you saw my note above. RoySmith (talk) 15:57, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Peacemaker67 OK, partly done; no significant issues found so far. Could you send me Violich 1998 and Sanders 1956? RoySmith (talk) 23:56, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks. I'll work on this in the next few days. RoySmith (talk) 18:27, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- G'day RoySmith. I reckon I might have got through it all now, sorry for the delay. I made a few changes where the wording might have been a bit close to the original, even to my German translations, so hopefully all will be well. I also added a few closer citations and deleted a sentence fragment that seemed superfluous. If you can't access any of the sources, please ping me and I'll email them to you. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:44, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- Works for me. My hope is that I don't find any problems, and if it takes a bit of extra time to get to that point, that's still a win as far as I'm concerned. RoySmith (talk) 18:18, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- Working, nearly done. Give me 24-48 hours and I'll be ready for Roy to take another look. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:49, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- Fair enough RoySmith, thanks. In the light of Peaacemaker's responses would you consider the spot check a pass or a fail? Gog the Mild (talk) 20:55, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
Source review with caveat
[edit]I'll do the consistency-and-reliability check, but given what RoySmith found above, another spotcheck or general source-to-text integrity check is necessary IMO. Anyhow, #20 is throwing a harv error. I am not sure that academic publications need a retrieval date. It seems like we are mostly dealing with sound academic publications here, although I am not deeply familiar with the topic. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:05, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- harv error fixed. Had left ref=no in the template when I copied to to the refs. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:08, 12 August 2024 (UTC)