Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries

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Category:Flag template shorthands has an RFC

Category:Flag template shorthands has an RFC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you.

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1 Etymology <-- sometimes it's just 'names'

2 History not every country has these categories & yet they apply to all modern countries-->

- Ancient world (9500-4000 BCE)

- Stone Age (4000-2000 BCE)

- Bronze age (3300-1050 BCE)

- Iron age (1050- 800 BCE)

- Axial age (800 - 200 BCE)

- Ancient world (200 BCE - 500 CE)

- Medieval period (500-1400CE)

- Modern era (1800 CE to present)

- Indigenous people (ie KhoiSan are the only indigenous people to South Africa & are not listed)

- Migration - colonisation (even the UK was under the Roman Empire at one point & a lack of colonisation is so rare it should be notable as in the case of Ethiopia)

- Independence/confederation/development & Expansion - national anthem

3 Geography and environment not every country has these categories & yet they apply to all modern countries--> - climate - geology - flora and fauna (may be easier for a broader population to understand than biodiversity?) - conservation

4 Civil society not every country has these categories & yet they apply to all modern countries--> - taxation - states/provinces and territories (organisation including sub-divisions) - legislature and law (ie: torte vs president) - foreign relations - security (is probably a better word than military & should not be lumped in with foreign relations) - media/freedom of the press/censorship - human development - education - peace (every country is assessed & it is foundational to govt/society/economics/development & yet it is not listed) - beliefs and values (including perspectives on gender)

5 Economy not every country has these categories & yet they apply to all modern countries--> - Application/Progress of the UN 2030 agenda for SDGs - Progress/efforts regarding 2050 net zero energy transition & climate change - Natural resources - Science & technology - Tourism - Industry & Manufacturing - Trade & Finance - Infrastructure (ie: Water & sanitation; roads; transport; etc) - Labour

6 Demographics not every country has these categories & yet they apply to all modern countries--> - religion - language(s) - health, vitality & wellbeing - education & literacy - diversity & ethnicity - gender

7 Arts and Culture not every country has these categories & yet they apply to all modern countries--> - literature & publishing - cuisine - visual arts (painting, sculpture, film etc) - performing art (music, dance, theatre, etc) - sports and recreation - festivals & customs - cultural institutions (ie: museums) - popular culture

8 See also

9 Notes

10 References<-- sometimes it's bibliography or sources

11 Further reading

12 External links e11e99 (talk) 18:47, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Is this a general change to be made to the project page? Moxy🍁 20:53, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Guessing based on the section name that this is meant to replace Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countries/Templates#Article_template. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:45, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

List of countries by year

Maybe an idea for a cooperation with Wikipedia:WikiProject Lists are lists of countries by year. That would mean making a list based on List of sovereign states for a specific year, e.g. 1900. Would only need to show all countries which existed that year and columns if they were part of an organization like Commonwealth of England and if they were just founded or dissolved in that year.

More lists for different years like 1800, 1700, 1500, 1000, 500 etc. Over time it would possible expand with list for more years. Nordat (talk) 11:50, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Area of countries

Have an odd situation with an editor.....Randomly changing the area number multiple times as seen here then change here to another number and a third number change here all on the same page . I am not sure if this is purposely disruptive or they're trying to find the best number. But this seems to be happening on multiple pages that has been reverted by multiple editors. Moxy🍁 20:06, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

In the case of South Korea, it appears that sourcing exists to support all three of those numbers, so it's probably just that they're trying to find the best one. Can't speak to the other cases. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:32, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

They simply wont talk about their changes all over...with horrible personal attacks. Moxy🍁 12:19, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Requested edit at Talk:Taiwan#Straw poll

There is a requested edit discussion at Talk:Taiwan#Straw poll that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Butterdiplomat (talk) 15:25, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Authoritarian dictatorship

Why is Russia described as an authoritarian dictatorship but China isn't?, China is just as authoritarian and dictatorial, if not more, than Russia 2806:230:1036:BCED:217D:27A5:62E3:8815 (talk) 06:08, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Czech Republic move request, nr 8 since 2005

Talk:Czech_Republic#Requested_Move_11_Jul_2024, your view is welcome. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:28, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Vocals in national anthem in the infobox

Why should only the instrumental versions of national anthems appear on their respective countries' infoboxes? I noticed that an invisible comment in the infobox for Turkey states "Please do not replace this with the vocal version. In order to keep continuity with other Wikipedia pages on modern countries, the instrumental version should be used." The only reason that the anthems have no vocals in these infoboxes is because the majority of free-content recordings come from the US army band, which does only provides the instrumental versions. The lyrics are especially important to understanding how the song is supposed to sung in the native language. I propose that the following passage should be amended from:

National anthem; the name of the National anthem and a link to the article about it.

to:

National anthem; the name of the National anthem, a sound recording of the anthem (featuring vocals in the native language if possible), and a link to the article about it. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 16:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Turkey is a bad example of a country article....But there is no rule of thumb......most have no voice because there is no point because the majority are non-english countries and words would be pointless. Moxy🍁 21:47, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

For one, words would be useful to know how the albums are sung in the language. It can help readers identify the song later on when they listen to it in other contexts, or if they just hear someone singing it the lyrics. Although even English-speaking countries (Australia, UK, US) don't have vocals in their sound files. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 21:58, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Agree most dont....only reason I can give...I have had limited interaction in these conversations in the past many years...anthems are contentious in nature..... most can never agree on the type/who's voice..... thus most default to no voice at all. Moxy🍁 22:06, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't see how the voice specifically would be controversial, or any more controversial than the people performing the music itself (Keep in mind, for most of these recordings are performed by the US military). But I think if an uncontroversial vocal performance for a particular country can be decided on, then that recording should be used. We should not limit all countries to a musical performance because some find vocals controversial in their specific cases. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 22:16, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

They are just contentious in nature.....if you look at Canada we have an American version to the detriment of most Canadians because the tone and pace are off to what we're use to. But the RFC I assume attracted many Americans that like the current version. On a side note Canada is one of the only country articles that actually discusses the anthem in the article. Moxy🍁 22:28, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

There was a time when the addition of the sound recordings themselves was a bit unsure, but they seem to have spread like the multi-image infobox. I have not observed however consistent discussion on the question of vocals, nor do I want to get into the weeds of defining "the native language". CMD (talk) 01:08, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

There is also the potential complication of layering on yet more copyrights needing to be cleared. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:22, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Thankfully, the music/lyrics to many of these anthems were written long enough ago that copyright doesn't apply, and many governments have even willingly released them into the public domain. If in the case of lyrics or music, an issue of copyright arises, then we will use the version of a song which does not infringe, whether vocal or instrumental. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 09:28, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

I do not mean the native language of the entire country, that would be impractical, difficult, controversial question to settle. I mean the lyrics of the anthem that is currently approved by the government of that country. So the Turkish national anthem would be in Turkish as the government has only approved the Turkish-language version of the song. South Africa's national anthem is currently in many different languages, so we'll use that version. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 09:23, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

The RFC discussion was 6 years ago, and it appears to have been ignored as the US army band music has been re-added to the infobox...

Regardless, I have now realized this question is much more complex than I thought so I will revise my original amendment. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 09:39, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

What I have suggested here will clearly not be applicable to every country's article, therefore I propose the following instead, which I hope is far more agreeable:

National anthem; the name of the National anthem, a sound recording of the anthem (with or without vocals, according to local consensus), and a link to the article about it

I hope that these kinds of discussions can be made at the individual country pages themselves, since each will have a different discussion on what exactly should be placed in the article. I do not want so-called "consistency" to prevent some articles from being forced to have no vocals. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 09:43, 17 July 2024 (UTC)